Pope, King of the world?

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Orthodox teach that Peter received the Keys. They also aknowledge the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome. Cool how the oldest Christian Churches share in this.

Yep. So when are you 2 Denominations going to smoke the Peace Pipe?

 

[Standing Up]

-snip-

Per Matthew, Christ Jesus will give the keys (future tense). Per Revelation, He still has the keys (present tense).

Have you ever considered how Christianity understood Matthew 16 and Peter receiving the Keys? Just take a look at the first 1500 years of Christianity and you will find a common or rather catholic theme.

* Another fine example how 1900 years of Christianity and it's constant teachings regarding the Keys from Matthew 16 is changed... even Martin Luther knew as much.

Another fine example of how 1800 years of Christianity and our constant falling away.

Per Matthew, Christ Jesus will give the keys (future). Per Revelation, Christ Jesus still has the keys (present).

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Yep. So when are you 2 Denominations going to smoke the Peace Pipe?

Only God knows.

I would really like to attend the Orthodox church next to my church. It is gorgeous on the outside and so the inside must be amazing.

 

[Uphill Battle]

The Orthodox teach that Peter received the Keys. They also aknowledge the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome. Cool how the oldest Christian Churches share in this.

indeed. They WERE after all, the same church up until the point that one (or the other, depending on whose point of view it is) had a hissy fit, took their ball and went home.

 

[GuardianShua]

Is the translation correct?
# Matthew 16:19
I will give you the key-s of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

# Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Matthew 16:17. Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father(Also known as the Rock) in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on (that Rock)this rock I will build my church,...
It is more like Yahshua to glorify the Father.
Revelation 10
The Angel and the Little Scroll
1Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars. 2He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, 3and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke. 4And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, "Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Another fine example of how 1800 years of Christianity and our constant falling away.

Per Matthew, Christ Jesus will give the keys (future). Per Revelation, Christ Jesus still has the keys (present).

Well I am glad that after 1800 years you were able to correct the Billions that came before you and the Millions of today.

I guess you will not see the importance of having a constant and consistant teaching, that is Theology for ya.

 

[SecretOfFatima]

You are confusing the issue, yet I shudder when I read your question that implies you are saved by the Church, not by the Grace of God Almighty.

Per Matthew, Christ Jesus will give the keys (future tense). Per Revelation, He still has the keys (present tense).

The future tense used in Matthew 16, "will build" and "will give you the keys," refers to what Christ will give to St. Peter after the Resurrection.

This explanation was taken from the following article:

"A type is a person, thing, or event in the Old Testament that foreshadows something to come later in time, either later in the Old Testament itself or in the New Testament. It is like a taste or hint of something that will be fulfilled or realized. Types are like pictures that come alive in a new and exciting way when seen through the eyes of Christ's revelation." The type is always lesser than the anti-type. The anti-type (New Testament event) is always greater than its type (shadow of an event in the Old Testament). And both are independent of each other.

"Types" are explained in Rom 5:14 and Heb 9:9, as a figure, 1 Cor 10:6 and 2 Thess 3:9 and 2Pet 2:6, as examples, 1 Cor 10:11 and Heb 11:19, as a type.

The Egyptian Exodus told in Hosea 11:1 is quoted exactly in Matt 2:15 when speaking of Jesus' return to Israel from Egypt: "where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son.""

What Matthew has done here is he took an historical event and interpreted it as a shadow of something greater to come in the future, which he sees as 'fulfilled' in the person of Jesus the Messiah.

Adam and Kind David are other examples of types of Christ. By their very nature Old Testament types are imperfect since they only prefigure the ultimate reality that is made known by and through Jesus Christ. Types of Christ find their perfection in the New Testament anti-type, Jesus Christ.

So when we read the Bible, we need to read it on two levels at once. We read the Bible in a literal sense…But we read it also in a spiritual sense, searching out what the Holy Spirit is trying to tell us through the words…

We do this in imitation of Jesus, because this is the way He read the scriptures. He referred to Jonah (Mt 12:39), Solomon (Mt12:42), the temple (Jn 2:19), and the brazen serpent (Jn 3:14) as "signs" that prefigured Him.

The king of Judah had a throne and this throne symbolized Yahweh's kingship over Israel (1 Chron 28:5; 29:23). The king was a consecrated and recognized as chosen by God (1 Kings 2:15, 1 Chron 28:5). As king, Saul is recognized as Yahweh's anointed, and therefore is a sacred person (1 Sam 24:7,11; 26:9,11,23 2 Sam 1:14,16).

The words "anointed" and "messiah" are synonyms being respectively the translation and the transliteration of the same Hebrew word "mashiah." The word "Christ" is the Greek translation of this word. Therefore, Hezekiah as an anointed king of Judah prefigured Jesus Christ.

This typology is also seen in several parallels in King Hezekiah's life with that of Jesus Christ. Let us consider one of the most striking parallels between Jesus Christ and the good King Hezekiah. We read in 2 Kings 20 that the King is mortally ill and that he prays to the Lord. Then the Lord speaks through his holy prophet Isaiah that the king is to go up to the temple on the third day and his life will be saved and the city will be saved as well. Thus, Christ's own resurrection on the third day was foreshadowed and how He brought His own Body back to Life and saved the city, the New Jerusalem, the Church.

A very important thing happened in the life of King Hezekiah that Jesus Christ later alludes to.

Isaiah 22:19-23

"I will thrust you from your office and pull you down from your station. On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah; I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open. I will fix him like a peg in a sure spot, to be a place of honor for his family"

Compare Isaiah 22 with Matthew 16:18-19 which states:

"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

This title, or position was also known in non-Jewish governments and we can see that the power that the holder of the keys actually has can be determined by reading Gen 41:39-40 "So Pharaoh said to Joseph: '…You shall be in charge of my palace,…Only in respect to the throne shall I outrank you.'" Gen 41 seems to suggest that he ruled not by exercising his own private judgment, but rather was in charge of executing the will of the king.

We see this confirmed in Isaiah 22:22 when we read that the Master of the palace will rule such that when "he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open." This passage presupposes that he will just be executing a judgment in keeping with the will of the king, or else it would have said, "what he opens, no one shall shut, except for the king." The Master of the palace is, so to speak, the agent or mouthpiece for the king.

One important point in Isaiah 22 is that it is the transfer of the keys that designates Eliakim as the new master of the palace, "I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder…" King David had been dead many years when this took place. Therefore, this verse shows that the office of key holder/master of the palace, was an office with successors just as the office of king was. It was the transferring of the keys that denoted the transfer of power to the new successor of this office as the king's representative, his regent, the master of the palace.

It was God the Father who had picked Peter to be the one to proclaim Jesus as the Messiah. And it was upon hearing this that Jesus alludes to that passage in Isaiah 22 above and gives the keys to Saint Peter. Matthew 16:13, 19 "'You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God... , you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.'"

The keys represent absolute power to rule. They are owned by the King of Israel who entrusts them to his representative the "master of the palace." Christ is the true King of Israel. Just as in Isaiah 22 above where the keys are handed down to the successors of the king's prime minister we see Christ giving His keys to his designated "master of the palace," his chief minister, his vicar, St. Peter.

That the "gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it" also implies succession for Peter's office just as the holders of the keys of David had successors. Peter died. Yet, Christ's promise is true. Peter who became the Bishop of Rome has a successor. The future tense used in Matthew 16, "will build" and "will give you the keys," refers to what Christ will give to St. Peter after the Resurrection.

Since we find many instances when Jesus is comparing the kingdom of heaven to a field, a mustard seed, leaven, and a net (Matt 13:24-52) demonstrate that the kingdom Jesus is talking about the universal Church on earth, not the eternal state of glory. Jesus comparing the kingdom of heaven to ten maidens, five of whom were foolish (Matt 25:1-2), further shows that the kingdom is the Church on earth. This kingdom cannot refer to the heavenly kingdom because there are no fools in heaven! Again, the "kingdom of God" is like the seed which grows and develops (Mark 4:26-32). The heavenly kingdom is eternal, so the kingdom to which Peter holds the keys of authority is the earthly Church. The one Jesus Himself founded.

Let's put it all together with what we've learned today. God promises to establish the Davidic kingdom forever on earth (2 Sam 7:16; Psalm 89:3-4; 1 Chron 17:12,14) and Matthew clearly establishes this tie of David to Jesus in the first line of his Gospel. Jesus is the new King of the new House of David, and the King will assign a chief steward to rule over the house while the King is in heaven. We see that the keys of the kingdom pass from Shebna to Eliakim (Isa 22:22). Thus, the keys are used not only as a symbol of authority, but also to facilitate succession. We see in the early Church that successors are immediately chosen for the apostle's offices (Acts 1:20). Just as the Church replaced Judas, it also replaced Peter with a successor after Peter's death. The keys of Christ's kingdom have passed from Peter to Linus all the way to our current Pope with an unbroken lineage for almost 2,000 years.

God Bless
Nathan
A permanent link to this article is here:
http://www.americancatholictruthsociety.com/articles/keys_nathan.htm

 

[JacktheCatholic]

indeed. They WERE after all, the same church up until the point that one (or the other, depending on whose point of view it is) had a hissy fit, took their ball and went home.

Funny you see it that way...

The RCC sees the EOC and OOC as still being Catholic. I think it was in Lumen Gentium that we had the most recent Apsotolic Letter regarding this. I could be wrong, there is probably something more up to date.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Another fine example of how 1800 years of Christianity and our constant falling away.

Per Matthew, Christ Jesus will give the keys (future). Per Revelation, Christ Jesus still has the keys (present).

The Pope does indeed have some tough "shoes" to fill

Reve 1:18 and the living One! And I became dead, and behold, I am living into the Ages of the Ages, and I am having the Keys of the Hades and of the Death

 

[JacktheCatholic]

The Pope does indeed have some tough "shoes" to fill

Reve 1:18 and the living One! And I became dead, and behold, I am living into the Ages of the Ages, and I am having the Keys of the Hades and of the Death

No man can fill the shoes of Jesus... way too BIG.

 

[spiritman]

"... the Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power."

Lucius Ferraris, in "Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica", Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #1, 5, 13-15, 18, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.

Its interesting to note that the RCC believes the Pope to be the chief of kings. So in other words he is over all the kings or rulers of the earth.

Note the word "plenitude".

Plenitude \Plen"i*tude\, noun [L. plenitudo, fr. plenusfull; cf. F. plenitude.]

1. The quality or state of beingfull orcomplete; fullness; completeness; abundance; as, the plenitude of space or power.

This is obviously false but is there a dream of this becoming a reality in the future? Do any catholics know of any efforts to make this a reality?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No man can fill the shoes of Jesus... way too BIG.

All I am saying is, the Orthodox do not view revelation in the same light as does Roman Catholicism but the fact that this book was barely canonized shows how much controversy was back then on it just as much as the controversy on it continues to this day.
That is why I quote from it a lot

Isaiah 22:22 And I give Key of house of David on shoulder-blade of him and he opens and no one is locking and he locks and is no one opening.

Reve 3:7 And to the Messenger of the in filadelfeia Out-Called write! Now-this is saying the Holy the True the One-having the Key *of-the David, the one opening and no one shall be *locking and locking and no-one is opening.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Funny you see it that way...

The RCC sees the EOC and OOC as still being Catholic. I think it was in Lumen Gentium that we had the most recent Apsotolic Letter regarding this. I could be wrong, there is probably something more up to date.

and they also see Protestants as under the authority of the Pope.

they are wrong about that too.

 

[Standing Up]

Well I am glad that after 1800 years you were able to correct the Billions that came before you and the Millions of today.

I guess you will not see the importance of having a constant and consistant teaching, that is Theology for ya.

So, you concede that Jesus Christ still holds the keys and that there are usurpers.

 

[Mikeb85]

The Orthodox teach that Peter received the Keys. They also aknowledge the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome. Cool how the oldest Christian Churches share in this.

We aknowledge that in the Early Church the Bishop of Rome HAD Primacy, however for different reasons than the Roman Church claims, and we also reject any claims of Papal Supremacy... (the idea that Rome had any power outside of her canonical jurisdiction, or somehow was the 'head' of the church)

Rome's Primacy in the early church had nothing to do with St. Peter, if that were the case, why wasn't Antioch given Primacy? That church was also founded by St. Peter, before the Roman Church... The fact of the matter is, Rome was given Primacy for the same reason Constantinople (New Rome) was...

 

[Standing Up]

The future tense used in Matthew 16, "will build" and "will give you the keys," refers to what Christ will give to St. Peter after the Resurrection.

-snip-

But of course that is not what Christ Jesus says. In Revelation, Christ says that He still has the keys.

So, what have we learned?

Christ Jesus will give the keys, per Matthew. He still has the keys per Revelation. As such, they do not reside with anyone on earth.

 

[spiritman]

If there are games being played it is not by me.

You just keep proving that Sola Scriptura is full of errors because there are so many errors in the way people read scripture.

Once you realize that the Bible (though inspired by God) is not an authority but only a tool meant to be used by those in authority then you can see the folly in everyone making themselves the authority with Sola Scriptura.

Trying to move away from the issue again? This is becoming very typical for you. Maybe you should change your avatar name to dodger.

And now you declare God's word "is not an authority but only a tool". I suppose the only thing you consider to be authority is the rcc. Any reader of the scriptures would know that's not true. Did you know that some follow men and their institutions but those that are born again follow only Christ?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So, you concede that Jesus Christ still holds the keys and that there are usurpers.

Guess this must be the defective Protestants slipping in amongst the RCs to usurp them

2 Timothy 3:6 For out of these are ones slipping/endunonteV <1744> into the homes and leading into captivity little-women, having been heaped/seswreumena <4987> (5772) to sins being led to various lusts

 

[simonthezealot]

Ya'll believe B16 has the right to ALTER divine LAW...
Seriously?

 

[Standing Up]

Guess this must be the defective Protestants slipping in amongst the RCs to usurp them

2 Timothy 3:6 For out of these are ones slipping/endunonteV <1744> into the homes and leading into captivity little-women, having been heaped/seswreumena <4987> (5772) to sins being led to various lusts

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. ... But thou hast fully known my doctrine ...