• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Pope, King of the world?

Status
Not open for further replies.

simonthezealot

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?
Apr 17, 2006
16,461
1,919
Minnesota
✟27,453.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Please let me try to clarify some points about what we Catholics truly believe
(note: what we believe can be backed up by scripture).
Not in all cases...Catholic doctrine has the maxim that allows for things not to be grounded in scripture or even history yet still be true...

but we truly believe in the autority of the church (unlike thousands of protestant denominations and secs that cannot fully agreed in all matters,
Oh please you guys have not agreed even from the earliest times.

I would go further and say that my perception on behalf of us Catholics is that all forces who may fight against the authority given to the Holy Father are simply doing the work of the enemy (satan himself).
WOW talk about offensive! for real? this is what you think?
I certainaly do not believe the the pope is in any away above our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Himself, the same goes for all other Catholics that I have known, however the perception by those outside the church is typical of comments taken out of context like yours.
I can show this stuff even in its native language...you want to accuse me of showing things out of context quantify your statement!


This is a quote of Isaiah 22:22
Isaiah 22:19-22 reads:
"I will thrust you from your office (speaking of Shebna who is the Prime Minister of the kingdom) and pull you down from your station. On that day I will summon my servant Eliakin, son of Hilkiah; I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open."

Quote the rest of the passage! especially verse 25...
then continue trying to use this passage for support of a papacy...
 
Upvote 0

simonthezealot

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?
Apr 17, 2006
16,461
1,919
Minnesota
✟27,453.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
WOW talk about offensive! for real? this is what you think?


Guess this does confirm that you are a true blue catholic inline with bulls indices and statements i've quoted here on this thread and on prior threads...
 
Upvote 0

StreetPreacher82

Walking from the valley to the mountain...</br><b>
Site Supporter
Dec 17, 2008
728
59
✟1,130.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I personally do not see anything in that scripture that leads me to believe Peter was the first Pope and that is a genuine statement. Honestly, I only have one problem with the Catholic faith and that is the belief that they are the only ones who are correct. There is not one once of scripture that I can find that warrants that. Like I said earlier, Catholics and Protestants both have pieces of the puzzle, not the entire thing.
 
Upvote 0

SecretOfFatima

Our Lady of Fatima: Song of Solomon 6:10 (NIV)
Oct 21, 2005
2,374
77
Visit site
✟17,938.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Guess this does confirm that you are a true blue catholic inline with bulls indices and statements i've quoted here on this thread and on prior threads...

Please re-read what I had already quoted in the original post:

The bible is full of references to the need for respect of authority. It is also full of references for the need for unity. In one parable Jesus is explaining how he could not be of Satanic origin (Mark 3:22), "How can Satan drive out Satan?" In this parable he points out the importance of leadership. "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand." Throughout the scripture we always see - One God, One Son, One Holy Spirit, One Church.


guess what? Amen, Verse 25 means exactly what it says and does not contradict anything the Catholic church beleives. You should remember that the Holy Bible is a Catholic Book, first came the Church then came the Bible, well at least for now we both can agree that all the NT books remain the same :).

Instead of dwelving into verse 25 please let me expand further on an interesting fact about isaiah 22:19-22

Hezekiah was at the time, the king over Israel. He was the son of David, hundreds of years after David had died. He was in the line of David and also he was ruler over the House of David. Now all kings in the ancient world had, as kings and queens have these days, cabinet officers, a cabinet of royal ministers. Like Margaret Thatcher was the Prime Minister, so there are other ministers under the Queen in Great Britain. Hezekiah, as King, had as his Prime Minister before Shebna who proved unworthy. So he was expelled, but when he was expelled, he left an office vacant. Not only did you have dynastic succession for the king, but you also have a dynastic office for the Prime Minister. When Shebna is expelled, there is an empty office that needs to be filled and that's why Eliakim is called to fill it.

But did you know what is most interesting about this OT story, the cabinet of royal ministers consisted of exactly 12 ministers, of which only 1 was ellected.

Bishop Fulton Sheen, who used to prefer a certain protestant bible commentary instead of the catholic ones, once said
"There are not over a 100 people in the U.S. that hate the Catholic Church, there are millions however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church -- which is, of course, quite a different thing."

Simon, if you have specific question about the church that Christ established please pop over to the OBOB area and ask each question separately, i'm quite sure that everyone will be very happy to help you.
 
Upvote 0

DD2008

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2008
5,033
574
Texas
✟8,121.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I personally do not see anything in that scripture that leads me to believe Peter was the first Pope and that is a genuine statement. Honestly, I only have one problem with the Catholic faith and that is the belief that they are the only ones who are correct. There is not one once of scripture that I can find that warrants that. Like I said earlier, Catholics and Protestants both have pieces of the puzzle, not the entire thing.


Matthew 16:15-19

15] He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
[16] Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
[17] And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
[19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Peter speaks the truth of Christ. Christ tells Peter that he knows the truth because it was revealed to him from God. Next Christ changes Peter's name from Simon to Peter (rock). I think that the keys and the binding and loosing have something to do with the position of being chosen by God to build the Church and bear the eternal truth in the penning of scripture under the chosen inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

I have not found anything in the scriptures or in the early Church fathers that indicates that the keys or the powers of binding and loosing were passed to Linus. It is obvious from scripture and from the early church fathers that there was recorded succession of bishops and that Rome was held as a primary seat of respect because it was the final Church of Peter and Paul, thought to be unshakable in faith because of that fact, and it was as we all know the capital of the civilized world. All roads led to Rome back then. :) However, there is absolutely nothing that I have found about papal infallability, passing on of keys and binding and loosing, until much much later in history.

Back when Peter and Paul and the other apostles built the Church and there after the Church was concerned mainly with preaching the gospel of Christ as handed on by the apostles, taking communion, and the reading of the scriptures, including many New Testament scriptures we all know today, that were fresh off the writing table ;) back then. The office of the pope simply was not there as we know it today. Yes Peter was the primary apostle, but after he passed I believe that passed with him. The keys were given to Peter not to Linus.

The chair of Peter is an interesting thing but it wasn't held authoritative like it is today, at all. There came at some point in time a consolidation of power in the western Church that I think used the Church of Rome for something that Peter and Paul didn't intend. I haven't found the exact occurance yet, but I think it probably has something to do with Constantine or shortly therafter. The early writings get a little different after that time. They get even more different after the fall of Rome. However, it must be admitted that there are many things we find in the ECF writings that are still present inthe Church today. The infallable papal office just isn't one of them.

Anything that is necessary to know is in scripture.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Psalms 119:160

[160] The sum of thy word is truth;
and every one of thy righteous ordinances endures for ever.


If the pope was infallable we could cite the passage that says the Roman pontiff shall be infallable in teaching the truth. In addition statements like the last sentace of Unam Sanctum certainly prove the pope is not infallable as it contradicts the scripture that says:

Ephesians 2:8-9

[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --
[9] not because of works, lest any man should boast.

There is no scripture that says "every human creature must be subject to the Roman Pontiff for salvation". But there certainly is one that says we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

:)
 
Upvote 0

spiritman

Well-Known Member
Jul 4, 2008
1,393
155
✟19,491.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Originally Posted by spiritman
Hi friend,

Do you believe this statement?

#13. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."
I would have to read it in context. I've seen protestants say all kinds of whacky things that make sense to them

But I can say this: As keeper of the keys, his jurisdiction is over the entire Church, in heaven, on earth, and in Purgatory. And He does represent Christ the King. So if I really stretch it, I could say that I believe the statement, although I would have worded it differently myself.

Since you believe what you stated and the fact that the Pope is infallible, would you do anything he asked you to do?
 
Upvote 0

JacktheCatholic

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
Mar 9, 2007
24,545
2,797
57
Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟51,888.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Since you believe what you stated and the fact that the Pope is infallible, would you do anything he asked you to do?

You obviously do not understand the meaning of this teaching.

Save yourself from sounding ignorant and read about what this teaching means. In a nutshell the Pope is guided by God on matters of faith when speaking from the Chair of Peter and does not imply the Pope is impecible or infallible himself.

I hope that was easy to understand for all.
 
Upvote 0

JacktheCatholic

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
Mar 9, 2007
24,545
2,797
57
Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟51,888.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You don't believe this? #13. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."

Depends...

Scripture speaks of crowns and it speaks of Jesus being king over other kings.

So is this crown a crown that we receive as Saints or is this crown a crown of royalty?

What is the intent of this?
 
Upvote 0

spiritman

Well-Known Member
Jul 4, 2008
1,393
155
✟19,491.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Depends...

Scripture speaks of crowns and it speaks of Jesus being king over other kings.

So is this crown a crown that we receive as Saints or is this crown a crown of royalty?

What is the intent of this?

The intent is to find out why you thought the title of the thread should be changed.

Do you not believe this statment?

#13. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."
 
Upvote 0

JacktheCatholic

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
Mar 9, 2007
24,545
2,797
57
Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟51,888.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The intent is to find out why you thought the title of the thread should be changed.

Do you not believe this statment?

#13. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."

You either wish to know why the title should be changed or to the other question you can tell me what part of my previous post you did not understand.

Thanks
 
Upvote 0

spiritman

Well-Known Member
Jul 4, 2008
1,393
155
✟19,491.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
You either wish to know why the title should be changed or to the other question you can tell me what part of my previous post you did not understand.

Thanks

Its a simple question. I answered your question and would like clarification on your position of this statement. Since you are the expert catholic why not tell me what the statement means and your position on it.

#13. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."
 
Upvote 0

JacktheCatholic

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
Mar 9, 2007
24,545
2,797
57
Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟51,888.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Its a simple question. I answered your question and would like clarification on your position of this statement. Since you are the expert catholic why not tell me what the statement means and your position on it.

#13. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."


I have questions regardng this text.

You have not answered those questions.

Also keep in mind that the only surviving document is not the original and not the one used. But for the sake of theological discussion I am willing to humor this discussion further if you can be so kind as to answer my previous questions.

Depends...

Scripture speaks of crowns and it speaks of Jesus being king over other kings.

So is this crown a crown that we receive as Saints or is this crown a crown of royalty?

What is the intent of this?
 
Upvote 0

Tonks

No longer here
Site Supporter
Aug 15, 2005
21,996
722
Heading home...
✟94,042.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Politics
US-Libertarian
ACCCKKKK! Not another Pope thread! Perhaps we need a board just on the Pope as there is for Mary and call it "Popeology".
This is one reason I am going to be posting less on GT in the future.

LLOJ Unsubscribes

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7149859&page=100
Is the Pope the most powerful voice for Christianity today?

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7179682&page=39
Is the Pope the most powerful voice for Christianity today? (2)

Not only that...another EENS / unam sanctum thread. Some people find the sound of a broken record compelling, I guess.
 
Upvote 0

JacktheCatholic

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
Mar 9, 2007
24,545
2,797
57
Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟51,888.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The Pope, King of the world?
Ever read the Bull Unam Sanctum?
Check it out, especially the last part.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html


Along those lines take a look also at this...Also...

From the Source:Lucius Ferraris "Papa," art. 2, in his Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica. ("Handy Library"), Vol. 5, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition, column 1823, Latin.

#1. "The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God."

#13. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."

#18. "As to papal authority, the Pope is as it were God on earth, Sole sovereign of all the faithful of Christ, chief king of kings, having a plentitude of unbroken power, entrusted by the omnipotent God to govern the earthly and heavenly kingdoms."

#30. "The Pope is of so great authority and power, that he is able to modify, declare, or interpret even divine laws."


Is this to be believed Simon?

As we know the original Bull did not survive and all we have is a copy or rough draft. And even this does not compare to what you have posted.

Here:

UNAM SANCTAM
His Holiness Pope Boniface VIII
November 18, 1302
URGED BY FAITH, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: "One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her," and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.
We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the mouth of the prophet: "Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword and my only one from the hand of the dog." [Ps 21:20] He has prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of the charity of the Church. This is the tunic of the Lord, the seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot [Jn 19:23-24]. Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: "Feed my sheep" [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter]. Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not bei ng the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John "there is one sheepfold and one shepherd." We are informed by the texts of the gospels that in this Church and in its power are two swords; namely, the spiritual and the temporal. For when the Apostles say: "Behold, here are two swords" [Lk 22:38] that is to say, in the Church, since the Apostles were speaking, the Lord did not reply that there were too many, but sufficient. Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord commanding: "Put up thy sword into thy scabbard" [Mt 26:52]. Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered for the Church but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest.
However, one sword ought to be subordinated to the other and temporal authority, subjected to spiritual power. For since the Apostle said: "There is no power except from God and the things that are, are ordained of God" [Rom 13:1-2], but they would not be ordained if one sword were not subordinated to the other and if the inferior one, as it were, were not led upwards by the other. For, according to the Blessed Dionysius, it is a law of the divinity that the lowest things reach the highest place by intermediaries. Then, according to the order of the universe, all things are not led back to order equally and immediately, but the lowest by the intermediary, and the inferior by the superior. Hence we must recognize the more clearly that spiritual power surpasses in dignity and in nobility any temporal power whatever, as spiritual things surpass the temporal. This we see very clearly also by the payment, benediction, and consecration of the tithes, but the acceptance of power itself and by the government even of things. For with truth as our witness, it belongs to spiritual power to establish the terrestrial power and to pass judgement if it has not been good. Thus is accomplished the prophecy of Jeremias concerning the Church and the ecclesiastical power: "Behold today I have placed you over nations, and over kingdoms" and the rest. Therefore, if the terrestrial power err, it will be judged by the spiritual power; but if a minor spiritual power err, it will be judged by a superior spiritual power; but if the highest power of all err, it can be judged only by God, and not by man, according to the testimony of the Apostle: "The spiritual man judgeth of all things and he himself is judged by no man" [1 Cor 2:15]. This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, "Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven" etc., [Mt 16:19]. Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1]. Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Transcribed by Bob Van Cleef, from a doctoral dissertation written in the Department of Philosophy at the Catholic University of America
http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_bo08us.htm
 
Upvote 0

JacktheCatholic

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
Mar 9, 2007
24,545
2,797
57
Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟51,888.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Not only that...another EENS / unam sanctum thread. Some people find the sound of a broken record compelling, I guess.

Especially since Simon has posted on this more than once. ;)
 
Upvote 0

spiritman

Well-Known Member
Jul 4, 2008
1,393
155
✟19,491.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
I have questions regardng this text.

You have not answered those questions.

Also keep in mind that the only surviving document is not the original and not the one used. But for the sake of theological discussion I am willing to humor this discussion further if you can be so kind as to answer my previous questions.

Depends...

Scripture speaks of crowns and it speaks of Jesus being king over other kings.

So is this crown a crown that we receive as Saints or is this crown a crown of royalty?

What is the intent of this?

Sure I'll be happy to.

I don't know what the answer to your question is because the statement was written by the infallible Pope and I thought you would know. Perhaps you could give your expertise on it.

The intent was to know why you wanted to change the title.
 
Upvote 0

JacktheCatholic

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
Mar 9, 2007
24,545
2,797
57
Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟51,888.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

Sure I'll be happy to.

I don't know what the answer to your question is because the statement was written by the infallible Pope and I thought you would know. Perhaps you could give your expertise on it.

The intent was to know why you wanted to change the title.

Was it written by the Pope? I have yet to see where it was...

Are you basing this on Simon's link? Or do you have additional information as yet not said?

I have posted the Bull as transcribed from 1925 and it fails to include this #13 line that the OP has presented. Seems kind of fishy...
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.