Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

[Ormly]

If you are familiar with your Bible at all, you will notice that those that followed Jesus, and those that preached His message of salvation, suffered much for the Lord. Many preaching today are also suffering for the Lord. So what part of the word "suffer" don't you understand.

In our service for the Lord, one can expect suffering of one sort or another. Could be mental or physical.

Our weakness is usually demonstrated by our unfathfulness.

Thank you, I am quite familar with my Bible.
I am suffering for Christ as I write this to you, trying to die to myself; hold back my 'ugly' disposition you have stirred up.

Do you now get my drift and perhaps begin to understand what dying to self is intended to mean? You say the Lord will change one's life? How so if it doesn't change in that area?

 

[yashualover]

Well, remember, I did say: "..The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation...".

I believe though that a "moral" assurance is different from an "absolute" assurance. A Moral assurance means that we know God will keep His promises as long as we do our part. But an absolute assurance we cannot have, since we know not what the future will bring. Many people turn away from God every day, so the people that told them they were "saved" were wrong (just as an example).

Wrong

 

[yashualover]

how does a harlot work where you live .... in Hotels and motels exactly .....

God did not point to life after but life right when her faith matured

Presumptuonsness is sin.

 

[yashualover]

No. But where does righteousness come from? Per Rom10:9, "heart-belief" consequents in righteousness.
In a word, YES.

In 2Thess2:13, we were "chosen from the beginning ...THROUGH FAITH." Do you believe what Paul wrote?
The Scriptures are undeniable; his interpretation, is not. Please read my post to Mike, #650.

All three views of "OSAS", are overturned; including "Calvinism".

God's perspective is to receive man's faith (making God passive and man active in belief), not to cause it. Verses on request.

Whaddya think?

Can a dead man revive himself?

Eph 2:1 You used to be dead because of your offenses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you once lived according to the ways of this present world and according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now active in those who are disobedient.
Eph 2:3 Indeed, all of us once behaved like them in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of our flesh and senses. By nature we deserved wrath, just like everyone else.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love for us
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead because of our offenses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Do believe in predestination and election?

http://www.eschatology.com/predestination.html

 

[Dispy]

Being we believers still have the "old sin nature" within us, therefore, it is very possible for us to be unfaithful, and grieve the Holy Slpirit.

I agree --- yet, the question is: [COLOR=red\"if we DO become unfaithful, and DO grieve the Spirit, are we still saved?[/COLOR]

Salvation is "by grace through faith". If we can become unfaithful, how can we be "unfaithfully-saved"?

It appears to me that you believe that a believer is on probation, and really doesn't have assured salvation. It depends upon our status at the point of or death or, if saved, rapture.

My salvation is by my FAITH in the Cross work of Christ. It is not based upon my faithfulness in my Christian walk. I was once a sinner that was saved by my FAITH in the cross work of Christ. Now I am a saint that still sins. My old sin nature is still in me.

Once one places their FAITH in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection) of Christ for their salvation, that one is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise until the day of redemption (Eph. 1:13).

Huh-uh; Eph4:30 says "un-TO", not "un-TIL". And 1:13 says "sealed after belief". Look at the dynamic in Heb10:29 --- there is a man who once was sanctified; but now he tramples the Son, scorns the Blood and insults the Spirit. "Insults" is "grieves"; and "was sanctified", cannot be separate from "was sealed".

Check you Websters Dictionary and you will find that the word "un-TO" has the same meaning as "un-TIL". Yes, After I have placed my FAITH in the Cross work of Christ for my salvation, I am SEALED by the Holy Spirit of promise to the day of my redemption.

Neither satan, nor I, have enough power to break that seal.

Where is the Scriptural basis? In Rom11:21-23, unbelief certainly separates us from the Vine. May we discuss Heb3:6-14?

Where is you Scriptural support for anyone being able to break the seal of our redemption. Believers are not on probation. However, their rewards will be according to their works 1 Cor. 3:8-15).

Why do you want to discuss Hebrews? The instructions in righteousness for members of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, are found in the Pauline Epistles. To whom, and why was the book of Hebrews written. It is not addressed to me as a member of the Church, the Body of Christ.

Paul, in 1 Cor. 9:25-27 is equating our Christian walk (run), with that of an athletic event. We as believers must run our "walK" as one in a foot race. We must run to seek the hightest reward at the end.

Can you or I ignore that the prize, is "an immortal wreath"? Further, he places "IN CHRIST", as forfeitable.

Our prize will be based upon our works that glorified our Lord, and survived the test, as by fire.

At the Judgment Seat of Christ, each believer will received the rewards for their works. Those who'sworks that do not survive the "trial by fire" will still be saved, as by the skin of their teeth.

Gotta be much more than just "Heavenly Crowns". Imperishable-wreath, means immortality. And "in Christ unless fail-the-test", conveys unalvation.

Yes, our rewards will include immortality, but also crowns of glory. Every mans works will be tried, as by fire. Those works that were for the edification of God/Jesus will be rewarded. Those good works that one does for their own glory/recognition will be burnt up.

I personally do not believe that Paul, in his example of an athletic event, is speaking of loss of salvation, but the loss of rewards at the end of the race, i. e. Judgment Seat of Christ.

OK, two things --- secondly, Paul clearly says "They race for a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. There's no way to "disconnect" 2Cor13:5, where "adokimos" exists [to indicate "Christ-not-in-you".

Now --- firstly --- please tell me exactly what a person DOES, to "lose rewards"?

Faithlessness?
Practice-sin?

What is it?

If it's faithlessness/sinfulness, then there is a "faithless/SINFUL salvation"?

May we discuss exactly WHAT it is that "loses rewards, but does not lose salvation"?

Yes, one that enters a earthly race runs to receive an earthly reward. However, we as Christians must run our Christ walk, as an athlete runs for an earthly prize. However, we must run our Christian "walk" to receive you heavenly rewards.

The moment I placed my FAITH in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection) of Christ, I was baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ, i.e. dry-cleaned (1 Cor. 12:13). I became a member of His flesh and of His bones (Eph 5:30), and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise unto/until the day of my redemption (Eph. 1:13-14).

As a believer, there are numerous things that I can do to lose rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ. It is easier to say that all the things that I do or say that do not edify my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, will not be rewarded.

Unfaithfulness is definately possible. However, once one is "in Christ" there is no way that satan, or anyone else can break the seal. Yes, I can sin, and lose fellowship, and grieve the Holy Spirit, but I will still be saved, "as by the skin of my teeth."

Please consider these two passages:

"What we have seen and heard and proclaimed, we proclaim also to you, that you may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ. ...if we say we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, ...the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness." 1Jn1:3, 6-7

Jesus: "Father, eternal life is knowing You, and the One You Sent." John17:3

This is the most foundational aspect of Christianity; it's the meaning of the Cross and the empty tomb --- it's the reason the veil, tore. Salvation is fellowship between God and man, between Creator and creature. It's an indwelt fellowship of love.

Indwelt --- if we dwell in sin, Jesus does not indwell us.

The believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. He does not come and go based upon our conduct. However, we can grieve Him by our conduct.

Don't believe that Paul is worrying about Timothy's salvation, but that continuing in his teaching/preaching is beneficial to his and all his listeners salvation.

I do --- Paul said, and meant: "You will SAVE YOURSELF...."

Look at the Greek word meaning for "Save" - G4982 --sōzō - to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

I find it very difficult to read 2 Pet. 2:5-10 into the Pauline Epistles. Peter and Paul are writing to two different groups of believers. Peter is writing to those Jewish believers that were saved under the dispensation of the Law and "the gospel of the kingdom." They are the Jews of the dispersion. They are the ones that James, Cephas (Peter) and John, agreeed to stay with in Gal. 2:9. Paul is writing to members of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, were are saved under the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began. That gospel we know as "the gospel of the Grace of God."

Peter didn't hold to "salvation by grace"? He knew about the new covenant.

The new covenant is with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It does not include the Body of Christ.

Well, I gave you my views.

Thank you for that; let's see if we can come to agreement on at least one point.

Salvation is an "indwelt fellowship of love" --- we are indwelt by the Savior Jesus, and by the Holy Spirit.

There is no salvation that exists apart from fellowship.

Romans6 states that we EITHER are enslaved to Christ, OR enslaved to sin; [/b]there is NO difference between a person who tries to be "saved" without intimate indwelt fellowship with God, and the "goats" that Jesus will separate out when He returns.[/b]

The "sheep", have Christ; the "goats", do not. "Having-Christ", is "fellowship".

It's not WHAT we know that saves us, but WHO we know, and Who knows us. [/QUOTE]

Salvation to me means eternal life with a new glorified body in heaven. Yes, it will include fellowship with God, and is based upon my relationship with Christ.

The "sheep" in Biblical terms means the saved children of Israel. They will inherit the earthly kindom at Christ 2nd coming. Members of the Church, the Body of Christ, have no place in that kingdom.

 

[Ben johnson]

Can a dead man revive himself?

Can a "dead man", believe savingly?

Yes.

Eph 2:1 You used to be dead because of your offenses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you once lived according to the ways of this present world and according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now active in those who are disobedient.
Eph 2:3 Indeed, all of us once behaved like them in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of our flesh and senses. By nature we deserved wrath, just like everyone else.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love for us
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead because of our offenses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Do believe in predestination and election?

Have we been "saved by grace", twice? No. Only once --- thus when verse 8 repeats "saved by grace", it's speaking of the same event as verse 8.

Verse 8 says "by grace through faith have you been saved."

Put it together: "WHEN you were dead in your sins, God made you alive, by grace THROUGH FAITH."

Saving-faith happened WHEN we were dead in sins, it is HOW we were "made-alive/born-again".

Rather beyond argument, isn't it?






(Yikes --- post number 666; so glad I'm not stupidstitious; "greater is He that is in you (me!), than he that is in the world.")

 

[Ben johnson]

It appears to me that you believe that a believer is on probation, and really doesn't have assured salvation. It depends upon our status at the point of our death or, if saved, rapture.

The "Rapture", happens at the end of the Tribulation. The text I wrote overturns all three views of "OSAS", and makes the connection with "Pre-Trib-Rapture". Most people who are "OSAS", are "Pre-Trib".

...leaving them ill-prepared when they find themselves IN the Tribulation, think themselves betrayed by God, and fall.
"The Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons..." 1Tim4:1

My salvation is by my FAITH in the Cross work of Christ. It is not based upon my faithfulness in my Christian walk.

Then please tell me your understanding of Col2:6-8.

I was once a sinner that was saved by my FAITH in the cross work of Christ. Now I am a saint that still sins. My old sin nature is still in me.

"Faith", walks in Christ; per passages like 2Tim2:11-13, "faith" can become "faithlessness". See also Rom11:21-23.

Check you Websters Dictionary and you will find that the word "un-TO" has the same meaning as "un-TIL". Yes, After I have placed my FAITH in the Cross work of Christ for my salvation, I am SEALED by the Holy Spirit of promise to the day of my redemption.

"Unto", is a promise; "until", is a guarantee. The promise reflects passages like Heb3:6 & 14, Col1:23, 2Pet3:17 (and many others) which say "if you CONTINUE..."

Where is you Scriptural support for anyone being able to break the seal of our redemption. Believers are not on probation.

James 5:19-20.
1Tim6:10 & 21.
Heb3:6-14, and 4:11.
Gal5:4.
2Pet1:5-10.
2Pet2:20-21.
There are many more, but these should be a good start...

However, their rewards will be according to their works 1 Cor. 3:8-15).

I look forward to hearing what works will lose us "rewards", but not "salvation".

Jesus said, "No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good." If we are "in Christ", then we produce good fruit.

Why do you want to discuss Hebrews? The instructions in righteousness for members of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, are found in the Pauline Epistles.

The entire letter of Hebrews, chapter by chapter, stands against "OSAS".

So does James.

And 2Pet.

To whom, and why was the book of Hebrews written. It is not addressed to me as a member of the Church, the Body of Christ.

Sounds like "Five-Way #5", applies to them back then but not to us today. But Hebrews aligns with Scriptural theology; it's mirrored by Peter, James, John, and Paul...

Our prize will be based upon our works that glorified our Lord, and survived the test, as by fire.

Exactly what is the "imperishable wreath", Dispy?

Yes, our rewards will include immortality, but also crowns of glory. Every mans works will be tried, as by fire. Those works that were for the edification of God/Jesus will be rewarded. Those good works that one does for their own glory/recognition will be burnt up.

He says "an imperishable wreath" --- what did he mean?

Yes, one that enters a earthly race runs to receive an earthly reward. However, we as Christians must run our Christ walk, as an athlete runs for an earthly prize. However, we must run our Christian "walk" to receive you heavenly rewards.

The moment I placed my FAITH in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection) of Christ, I was baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ, i.e. dry-cleaned (1 Cor. 12:13). I became a member of His flesh and of His bones (Eph 5:30), and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise unto/until the day of my redemption (Eph. 1:13-14).

As a believer, there are numerous things that I can do to lose rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ. It is easier to say that all the things that I do or say that do not edify my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, will not be rewarded.

Specifically, what?

Have you ever investigated the concept of deception? Deceivers try to deceive us away from CHRIST. Look at Col2:6-8 (we mentioned this above) --- what is the goal of the deception? To steal "crowns"? Or to lead us away from Christ? Look at the warning against deception in 1Jn2:26-28, and the one in 2Jn1:7-9. There are so many others, too...

The believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. He does not come and go based upon our conduct. However, we can grieve Him by our conduct.

Really? If we "walk in sin", does the Holy Spirit continue to walk (in sin) with us? He does not.

So the Calvinist is constrained to say, "We WILL NOT continue in sin" --- viewing the warnings as "hypothetical", as "fatherly advice", as "100% effective means by which He keeps us saved."

That's Five-Way #4. Do you know of the Five-Ways?

Look at the Greek word meaning for "Save" - G4982 --sōzō - to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

Yet, he very specifically says "Continue in your doctrine." Can a case be made for "forsaking Christ's doctrine of salvation, but remaining saved"? No.

It is identical to 2Jn1:7-9, "those who go too far and do not abide in the teachings of Christ, have not God. He who abides, has the Father and the Son."

Do you think that "teachings-of-Christ", is not the same as "your doctrine"? They're the same.

I find it very difficult to read 2 Pet. 2:5-10 into the Pauline Epistles. Peter and Paul are writing to two different groups of believers. Peter is writing to those Jewish believers that were saved under the dispensation of the Law and "the gospel of the kingdom." They are the Jews of the dispersion. They are the ones that James, Cephas (Peter) and John, agreeed to stay with in Gal. 2:9. Paul is writing to members of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, were are saved under the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began. That gospel we know as "the gospel of the Grace of God."

Peter was not espousing the same Gospel as Jesus taught? Sounds like Five-Way #2, and #5. (I'll post all 5 at the end.)

The new covenant is with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It does not include the Body of Christ.

So --- we can discount both letter by Peter, 'cause they don't apply to us here today?

Salvation to me means eternal life with a new glorified body in heaven. Yes, it will include fellowship with God, and is based upon my relationship with Christ.

The "sheep" in Biblical terms means the saved children of Israel. They will inherit the earthly kindom at Christ 2nd coming. Members of the Church, the Body of Christ, have no place in that kingdom.

If we come to agreement on nothing else, I pray that I can convince you that "salvation, is fellowship with God and Christ".


PS: The "Five-Ways", are five devices that attempt to explain "problem passages" (that is, problematic to paradigms like Calvinism). Notice that in each case, a Five-Way is really imposing upon Scripture, "NOT REALLY".

1. Subjects were not ever REALLY saved in the FIRST place (so they couldn't fall)
2. Subjects did not REALLY fall (may become faithless or unsteadfast, but stayed saved)
3. Two groups; one SAVED, one NEVER-SAVED lurking AMONGST the saved (subject-change; 2Jn8 to 9 for instance)
4. Hyperbole; fatherly advice; can't REALLY happen --- it's "effective means to KEEP us in line".
5. Dispensation --- applies to THEM back THEN, but not to US here TODAY


Each of those Five-Ways can be shown to be unscriptural...

 

[Ben johnson]

weekend almost over.... when some one says they will respond ... and continuelly does not do this .. they are a ????

I responded. Post 648...

 

[A Brother In Christ]

So --- this is a test of my maturity, in how I respond? Then perhaps the mature thing is to not respond at all.

Although, these posts do make me wonder if we can have productive discourse.

Ben continual speaking your side is not a discussion between people its a one side conversation where you refuse to look at context

It remains for you to explain Gal5:21 --- "I have warned you that those who practice these things will not inherit the kingdom of God." How does that become "they'll get in"?
Focus on verse 17 here --- now read 1Jn4:16: "God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him."

Verse 17 asserts that God's love does NOT abide in the one who ignores his brother's physical needs.

Do you accept that "God's-love-not-abiding" in someone, means they are "not saved"?
As I responded before, it is possible to walk in the flesh --- but as Rom8:12-14 states "If we DO walk in the flesh we must die".

Thus, "walk-in-flesh", and "must-die", isn't saved.
Verse 5-6 states "No impure or immoral man, no idolater or coveter, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God (God's wrath comes upon such)."

How does that become "they have an inheritance"?
Correct --- so how does an unwashed/unclean person enter Heaven?
David repented. Do you deny this?
What does this mean? If you have found a way that "children of satan" will enter Heaven, how does that work?
In Heb5:9, "He is the source of salvation for all who obey Him". In Heb4:11, "be diligent to enter God's rest, lest anyone FALL by imitating their (Israelites') disobedience."

How can there persist a view of "disobedient-SAVED"?
Exactly that, my friend; now is exposed the truth of Scripture --- "Do not be UNSAVED".
"Wheat" is saved, "tares" are not.
If we walk in Him, it happens. If we do not walk in Him but walk in sins/flesh, we aren't saved.
It's a salvational issue.
As James says in 4:4, "You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. "
This is salvational. "Asleep/dead", isn't saved.
How shall I convince you that "sinning", does not fit "believers"?
The seal can be broken, by sin and unbelief.
Context clearly asserts "CHOOSE either sin, OR God".
Sorry --- one is not still dirty after being washed.
God overlooks unbelief and sinfulness?

Then God is not "just".
Those who practice righteousness, are God's children; those who practice wickedness, are satan's children.

Which children enter Heaven?
Tell me something --- in Luke15:13, and only verse 13 --- is that son "saved"?

I look forward to your response.

I answer the verses that you continually misquote ... yet you do not correct me ... same jibber jabber

above ... all sin ... romans 3:23

what is a difference is one group give God the credit the other trys to get the credit for themselves for salvation

what one are you?

 

[Ben johnson]

The verses that state "Those who do (ungodly things) shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (1Cor6:9-11, Gal5:19-21, Eph5:5-6), have not been refuted, ABIC. Please explain how "will not inherit", becomes "will inherit"?

One verse in the Bible does not conflict another.

If you think the verses you've cited say "they will inherit", please tell us what happened to the verses that say "they will not".

 

[A Brother In Christ]

three of Ben Johnson favorite bible verse in context ... please respond verse by verse please

eph 5:1 Be therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Matt 18:3-6 children do not make it complicated

eph 5: 2 and walk in love, as Christ also loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour.

love is a fruit from the spirit ... Gal 5:22-26 if not walking in the spirit they are focusing their minds on things of the earth thus becoming carnal ... thus gal 5:26 vain glory, provoking and envying other believers

Christ examples of love prior to the new comandment in John 13:34-35 is in John 13:13-15 washing the feet of the servants the more mature [master/Lord] seeing a need [dirty feet] and loving them without cost to hisself. conects to 1 jn 3:16-18

Sacrifice goes to Romans 12:1-2 to present a living sacrifice

eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be named among you, as becometh saints;

why are saints told this it is possible for them to walk in the flesh
2 peter 1:4 Given the greatest and best promises so that they might be parataker in the divine nature

eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving thanks.

these believers were having a problem of giving thanks in all things .. 1 thes 5:16-18 so they joked about it

eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

unclean person is one that has not been cover by the blood of Christ ... by the washing of the Holy Spirit

King David did several of these things but before He did God promised He would be the King during the 1000 yr reign ... Thus showing that GOD in his all knowingness knew that he would murder and covet his neigbor wife then committing adultry thus making him unclean .... That God would cover his sins already... Romans 4:5-8

eph 5:6 Let no man decieve you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the son's of disobedience.

Two camps ... 1 jn 3:10 children of God and the children of satan

1 cor 11:30-32, 1 thes 5:10, 1 thes 1:10

disobedience is the belief that Jesus died for there sins was buried three days and arose from the dead in a new body is God ... adding to this or subtracting to this gospel they are children of disobedience

eph 5:7 Be not therefore parataker with them.

possible for wheat and tares to intermingle ... matt 13:25,38

we are to be good by giving the hope in us... but this does not always happen

2 cor 3:18

eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

this is about consistanty.. in your walk other wise they would not need to be reminded .... this is about God's desireous will not determintive will

eph 5:11 and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather reprove them.

there problem is they they were loving the world and fellowshipping with them..... in stead of fellowshipping with other believers

eph 5:14 Wherefore He saith Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine thru you.

telling the believers who were sinning to remind themselves who they are in Christ ... paid for by the blood 1 cor 6:19-20 once and for all heb 10:14-18

Christ is already sealed this sinner who believed ...eph 1:13, rev 3:5, eph 4:30

count what is true romans 6:11-13 so that God can be shown forth out of the dirt of man God character can be shown forth



1 cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God? Be not decieve: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulters, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 cor 6:11 and such were some of you [ARE RIGHT NOW] . but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, But ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our Lord.

This connects to romans 4:5

all this is God's work ... do all christian live up to God's standards no.... but God is mercyiful and graceous

1john 3:2 Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.

1 jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

1 jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


1 jn 3:3 and every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself even as He is pure.

the hope of the rapture has a purifing affect... if looking to one's promises

1 jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

romans 4:15-16.... law is to unbelievers used to show they need a saviour... 1 tim 1:9.. ungodly Jude 15.... Yet to those ungodly that Believe that Jesus is God and died for their sins they are called righteous... romans 4:5

1 jn 3:5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.

1 jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoeversinneth hath not seen Him, neither known him.

1 jn 3:7 Little children, let no man decieve you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

romans 4:5.. how to become righteous

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

2 cor 11:13-15



1 jn 3:8 He that commiteth sin of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

romans 7:20

1 jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God the Father does not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin because he is born of God.

commit = practice = pattern of whole life not a season

1 cor 11:30-32
heb 12:5--15

1 jn 4:10



1 jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

children of the devil ... eph 2:2-3
righteousness .... romans 4:2-8[/quote]

 

[yashualover]

He chose me before I was born. How could I be righteous at that point in time. I suggest you do a study about the foreknowledge of God and how He uses that method to determine His choices.

Do you believe He chose you because chose Him?

Again, you speak of th eforeknowledge of God. He chose me before the foundation of the world. He knew I would respond and thus ordered my steps.

Can you grasp that?



Oh, not in my estimation where it can be seen that he has taken scripture out context, ignored-dismissed out of hand, scripture that refutes his argument, as what must be done in order to precerve your view.

"Whosoever, will, let him come" . . . Jesus.
Does that sound like Jesus chooses for salvation?

Ok I'll ask in other way.

Do you think He forenew that you would be a good person and this is the reason why He chose you?

Do you think that the reason He chose you is because He forenew that you would choose him?

I do have a proper understanding of predestination and election, especially after reading the following article that is filled with scriptural proof.

http://www.eschatology.com/predestination.html

 

[yashualover]

If you are familiar with your Bible at all, you will notice that those that followed Jesus, and those that preached His message of salvation, suffered much for the Lord. Many preaching today are also suffering for the Lord. So what part of the word "suffer" don't you understand.

In our service for the Lord, one can expect suffering of one sort or another. Could be mental or physical.

Our weakness is usually demonstrated by our unfathfulness.

Most preachers are not suffering today because they are ear ticklers.

Only the goats will continually deny Him.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit , and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

why does a christian who believes need to be told this?

it can happen!

1 thes 5:23 states we have flesh spirit and soul .... can not run away the OSN is inside of us!

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Mental warfare... 2 cor 10:4-5, eph 4:23... moment by moment

Gal 5:18 Since if ye be led of the Spirit , ye are not under any law.

we are not under law... 1 tim 1:9, gal 2:21, romans 8:1-4

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are made clear, which are these: adultery, fornication, uncleaness, lasciviousness. works of the flesh are made like a hamburger :every one notice the buns and says... I do not do those BUT the middle alot of so call righteous people do these.. 2 cor 11:13-15 as well as carnal believers... 1 cor 3:1-3

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, anger, strife, divisions, heresies,

gal 5:21 Enying, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall no inherit the kingdom of God.

Practice is a life time of doing a certain sin ... 1John3:9 states that we cannot practice sin for a lifetime.... but 1 john 1:8-10 states that we can sin as King david did.... romans 4:6-8 were He had no fruit yet God saved him!

gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

how does one get this... col 3:1-4... 2 tim 2:1 positional truth


gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

gal 5:24 And they that are like Christ have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

1 john 2 states three levels of groweth children, young men, Fathers this has nothing to do with age by spiritual maturity in Christ

children .. #1 2:12 for you sins are forgiven you for Christ sake
.. #2 vs 2:13 know the father because you have overcome... 1 jn 5:4-5

young men .. #1 over come the wicked one.. Know how to deal with Satan eph 6:10-17 .. being strong in the Lord shows that they have under stood how to count them selves dead to the OSN
...... #2 God word abideth in you 1 jn 2:14 only young men start showing forth fruit ... they do not argue with scripture when one shows a verse that counters there preconcieved thoughts

Fathers know from the beginning 1 john 1:1-2
........... Because we have known Him that is from the beginning .... has no beginning or ending heb 12:2, eph 1:4

Gal 5:25 Since we live in the spirit, let us walk in the Spirit.

why does a believer need to hear this? Just because they have the spirit pride whether from the flesh, satan or the world can attack a believer to act like in the verse below

Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirousof vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

hopefully ben reads and understands what I have been bore along to be faithful to preach to him


in Christ there is peace

 

[yashualover]

Can a "dead man", believe savingly?

Yes.
Have we been "saved by grace", twice? No. Only once --- thus when verse 8 repeats "saved by grace", it's speaking of the same event as verse 8.

Verse 8 says "by grace through faith have you been saved."

Put it together: "WHEN you were dead in your sins, God made you alive, by grace THROUGH FAITH."

Saving-faith happened WHEN we were dead in sins, it is HOW we were "made-alive/born-again".

Rather beyond argument, isn't it?






(Yikes --- post number 666; so glad I'm not stupidstitious; "greater is He that is in you (me!), than he that is in the world.")

Is faith a gift given to the elect only?

 

[Dispy]

The "Rapture", happens at the end of the Tribulation. The text I wrote overturns all three views of "OSAS", and makes the connection with "Pre-Trib-Rapture". Most people who are "OSAS", are "Pre-Trib".

...leaving them ill-prepared when they find themselves IN the Tribulation, think themselves betrayed by God, and fall.
"The Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons..." 1Tim4:1
Then please tell me your understanding of Col2:6-8. "Faith", walks in Christ; per passages like 2Tim2:11-13, "faith" can become "faithlessness". See also Rom11:21-23.
"Unto", is a promise; "until", is a guarantee. The promise reflects passages like Heb3:6 & 14, Col1:23, 2Pet3:17 (and many others) which say "if you CONTINUE..."
James 5:19-20.
1Tim6:10 & 21.
Heb3:6-14, and 4:11.
Gal5:4.
2Pet1:5-10.
2Pet2:20-21.
There are many more, but these should be a good start... I look forward to hearing what works will lose us "rewards", but not "salvation".

Jesus said, "No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good." If we are "in Christ", then we produce good fruit.
The entire letter of Hebrews, chapter by chapter, stands against "OSAS".

So does James.

And 2Pet. Sounds like "Five-Way #5", applies to them back then but not to us today. But Hebrews aligns with Scriptural theology; it's mirrored by Peter, James, John, and Paul...
Exactly what is the "imperishable wreath", Dispy?
He says "an imperishable wreath" --- what did he mean?
Specifically, what?

Have you ever investigated the concept of deception? Deceivers try to deceive us away from CHRIST. Look at Col2:6-8 (we mentioned this above) --- what is the goal of the deception? To steal "crowns"? Or to lead us away from Christ? Look at the warning against deception in 1Jn2:26-28, and the one in 2Jn1:7-9. There are so many others, too...
Really? If we "walk in sin", does the Holy Spirit continue to walk (in sin) with us? He does not.

So the Calvinist is constrained to say, "We WILL NOT continue in sin" --- viewing the warnings as "hypothetical", as "fatherly advice", as "100% effective means by which He keeps us saved."

That's Five-Way #4. Do you know of the Five-Ways?
Yet, he very specifically says "Continue in your doctrine." Can a case be made for "forsaking Christ's doctrine of salvation, but remaining saved"? No.

It is identical to 2Jn1:7-9, "those who go too far and do not abide in the teachings of Christ, have not God. He who abides, has the Father and the Son."

Do you think that "teachings-of-Christ", is not the same as "your doctrine"? They're the same.
Peter was not espousing the same Gospel as Jesus taught? Sounds like Five-Way #2, and #5. (I'll post all 5 at the end.)
So --- we can discount both letter by Peter, 'cause they don't apply to us here today?
If we come to agreement on nothing else, I pray that I can convince you that "salvation, is fellowship with God and Christ".


PS: The "Five-Ways", are five devices that attempt to explain "problem passages" (that is, problematic to paradigms like Calvinism). Notice that in each case, a Five-Way is really imposing upon Scripture, "NOT REALLY".

1. Subjects were not ever REALLY saved in the FIRST place (so they couldn't fall)
2. Subjects did not REALLY fall (may become faithless or unsteadfast, but stayed saved)
3. Two groups; one SAVED, one NEVER-SAVED lurking AMONGST the saved (subject-change; 2Jn8 to 9 for instance)
4. Hyperbole; fatherly advice; can't REALLY happen --- it's "effective means to KEEP us in line".
5. Dispensation --- applies to THEM back THEN, but not to US here TODAY


Each of those Five-Ways can be shown to be unscriptural...

It is apparent to me that you believe that your salvation depends upon your works, whereas I believe that my salvation is dependant what Christ did for me on the Cross of Calvery.

There is nothing I can do in this mortal state that will add to the salvation that was guarenteed me by my FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ.

My rewards in heanven will be given for only those things that edify my Lord and Saviour. Those very good works that I may have done for my own glorification will not pass the test, as by fire.

My salvation is based upon what I have done with Christ, not by going back into legalism and trying to work my way to heaven.

It is quite apparent that you and I will never agree without one of us changing our views. You have not presented anything that will change my views.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[nobdysfool]

Amen!

 

[Ormly]

It is apparent to me that you believe that your salvation depends upon your works, whereas I believe that my salvation is dependant what Christ did for me on the Cross of Calvery.

There is nothing I can do in this mortal state that will add to the salvation that was guarenteed me by my FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ.

My rewards in heanven will be given for only those things that edify my Lord and Saviour. Those very good works that I may have done for my own glorification will not pass the test, as by fire.

My salvation is based upon what I have done with Christ, not by going back into legalism and trying to work my way to heaven.

It is quite apparent that you and I will never agree without one of us changing our views. You have not presented anything that will change my views.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Spoken like a true "white knuckler". Ooorah!

 

[yashualover]

Amen! I agree with Dispy.

 

[Ben johnson]

three of Ben Johnson favorite bible verse in context ... please respond verse by verse please

eph 5:1 Be therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Matt 18:3-6 children do not make it complicated

eph 5: 2 and walk in love, as Christ also loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour.

love is a fruit from the spirit ... Gal 5:22-26 if not walking in the spirit they are focusing their minds on things of the earth thus becoming carnal ... thus gal 5:26 vain glory, provoking and envying other believers

Rom8:12-13 speaks of "walking in the Spirit", and "walking in the flesh" --- plainly stating that "if we walk in the flesh, we must die".

Do you accept that "walk-in-flesh", must die?

Christ examples of love prior to the new comandment in John 13:34-35 is in John 13:13-15 washing the feet of the servants the more mature [master/Lord] seeing a need [dirty feet] and loving them without cost to himself. conects to 1 jn 3:16-18

Sacrifice goes to Romans 12:1-2 to present a living sacrifice

eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be named among you, as becometh saints;

There is a choice, "A_Brother" --- we walk either in uncleanness, or in Christ. The former is not saved.

why are saints told this it is possible for them to walk in the flesh

Because salvation is forfeitable.

2 peter 1:4 Given the greatest and best promises so that they might be parataker in the divine nature

What does verse 9 say? The man who LACKS the godly qualities is blind/short-sighted-FORGOTTEN-former-purification. He's held out as the "bad example". "THEREFORE (against that bad-example-man), we must be all the more diligent to make sure of our calling and election; in this way the gates of Heaven will be (abundantly) provided.

There are no gates, to the man who has forgotten purification.

eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving thanks.

these believers were having a problem of giving thanks in all things .. 1 thes 5:16-18 so they joked about it

eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

unclean person is one that has not been cover by the blood of Christ ... by the washing of the Holy Spirit

Yet you view him as "SAVED"? How, why?

King David did several of these things but before He did God promised He would be the King during the 1000 yr reign ... Thus showing that GOD in his all knowingness knew that he would murder and covet his neigbor wife then committing adultry thus making him unclean .... That God would cover his sins already... Romans 4:5-8

David repented; and because of that repentance he did not die.

Had he not repented, he would have died.

eph 5:6 Let no man decieve you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the son's of disobedience.

Two camps ... 1 jn 3:10 children of God and the children of satan

1 cor 11:30-32, 1 thes 5:10, 1 thes 1:10

How does saying "two camps", answer Eph5:5-6? Paul writes "impure/immoral men will not inherit" --- but your position is "they will inherit". How do you overturn Paul?

disobedience is the belief that Jesus died for their sins was buried three days and arose from the dead in a new body is God ... adding to this or subtracting to this gospel they are children of disobedience

Disobedience is walking in sin. Not submitting to His Lordship.

eph 5:7 Be not therefore parataker with them.

possible for wheat and tares to intermingle ... matt 13:25,38

We are in the world --- we are "wheat". Tares are in the world --- tares are not saved. When the Great harvest comes, we (wheat) will be harvested, but the tares (unsaved, weeds) will be burned.

we are to be good by giving the hope in us... but this does not always happen

We cannot be "good" --- we can only implore Him to be good IN, and THROUGH us.

2 cor 3:18

What does that verse say to you? To me, it says "we are changed into His image". That's "not-pursuing-sin", A_Brother.

eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

this is about consistency.. in your walk other wise they would not need to be reminded .... this is about God's desireous will not determintive will

If they do NOT walk as children of light, then they walk after darkness and sin; and are not saved.

eph 5:11 and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather reprove them.

their problem is they they were loving the world and fellowshipping with them..... in stead of fellowshipping with other believers

As James4 says, "friendship with the world is enmity against God." How do you believe that "God will still welcome such enemies into Heaven"?

eph 5:14 Wherefore He saith Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine thru you.

telling the believers who were sinning to remind themselves who they are in Christ ... paid for by the blood 1 cor 6:19-20 once and for all heb 10:14-18

Those who believe, are not sleeping/dead. The sleeping/dead, are not true believers.

Christ is already sealed this sinner who believed ...eph 1:13, rev 3:5, eph 4:30

True belief follows Christ; he who practices sin does not know God, but belongs to the devil.

count what is true romans 6:11-13 so that God can be shown forth out of the dirt of man God character can be shown forth

You're denying verse 16:
Do you not know, that when you submit yourselves as servants of obedience, you are slaves to the one you obey? EITHER of sin unto DEATH, OR of obedience unto righteousness.

Do you accept that "slaves of sin, unto death", cannot enter into "eternal life"?

1 cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God? Be not decieve: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulters, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 cor 6:11 and such were some of you [ARE RIGHT NOW]

Why do you insert "ARE RIGHT NOW"? Please tell me how "thieves/covetous/drunkards/carousers", have been washed (if they still wallow in such dirt)?

but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, But ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our Lord.

This connects to romans 4:5

"Rom 4:5But to him that does not work, but believes on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Do you accept that "He whom God justifies/sanctifies/washes/regenerates", is no longer "ungodly"?

all this is God's work ... do all christian live up to God's standards no.... but God is merciful and gracious

God is graceful to the unrighteous? Then God would be unjust. The wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience, the ones who are immoral/impure/covetous/idolaters. Have you any way to discount Paul's words?

1john 3:2 Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.

1 jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

"CLEANSE us"? Please consider that "cleanse us", precludes continuance in filth.

1 jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


1 jn 3:3 and every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself even as He is pure.

the hope of the rapture has a purifing effect... if looking to one's promises

Christ Himself is the "purifying effect". And the Spirit washes/regenerates us.

1 jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And whoever abides in Christ, abides in repentance, not in sin.

romans 4:15-16.... law is to unbelievers used to show they need a saviour... 1 tim 1:9.. ungodly Jude 15.... Yet to those ungodly that Believe that Jesus is God and died for their sins they are called righteous... romans 4:5

No, they're not.
Jude15: To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. Nothing in here that pretends "the ungodly will be saved".

1 jn 3:5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.

1 jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoeversinneth hath not seen Him, neither known him.

1 jn 3:7 Little children, let no man decieve you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

romans 4:5.. how to become righteous

You're completely misunderstanding --- you see God as "throwing a bucket of whitewash, over their sins" --- when the truth is that He washes them from the iniside out.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

And what is the consequence? They shall not spend eternity with him. Look at the contrast between those in Rom9:18-20 (repeated in Heb3:16-18), and how WE are warned not to "fall and fail to enter God's rest, by IMITATING the Israelites' disobedience and unbelief". Heb4:11.

2 cor 11:13-15

That passage says that they masquerade as God's disciples; but (15) their end will be according to their works."

Do you remember how those who SEEK glory/honor/righteousness receive eternal life, but those who SEEK selfish ambition and unrighteousness receive God's wrath? Rom2:6-8.

1 jn 3:8 He that commiteth sin of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Right --- by destroying sinfulness. Those who belong to Christ, do not walk in sin. 1Jn1:6-7

romans 7:20

You can't do that; Rom7 speaks about the "war between the two natures" --- where Paul, striving to serve God, finds himself doing the very sin he did not want to do. He cries out in anguish, "Who will SAVE me from this war?" And then Paul answers the question, in chapter 8; we walk NOT in sin (if we do we must die!!!) --- but if by the Spirit we put to DEATH sinful flesh (that means "do not dwell in sin"), we will live.

1 jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God the Father does not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin because he is born of God.

commit = practice = pattern of whole life not a season

How long is a season? Please review Luke15:13, and ONLY verse 13 --- at that moment, is the "Prodigal Son", saved? (If he had died right then, would he have gone to Heaven?)

1 cor 11:30-32
heb 12:5--15

1 jn 4:10

1 jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
children of the devil ... eph 2:2-3
righteousness .... romans 4:2-8

Do you assert that "children of the devil", are still "saved"?