Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

[Ben johnson]

Is faith a gift given to the elect only?

We must properly define "faith", and "elect". I think you're meaning "SAVING-faith". But you define "elect" as "God's sovereign pre-chosen".

While I perceive "elect", is whosoever believes.

Saving-faith is not a gift from God, at all; look at Heb11:6 --- God receives the faith of men who COME to Him, BY faith.

In Rom10:9-10, faith comes from our hearts; not "unilaterally from God".

In 2Tim3:16, studying the Scripture is able to give us wisdom that leads to saving-faith.

We decide, "YashuaLover".

 

[BlueIceDragon]

lol *sighs*

Once saved always saved is a Scripture teaching if we understand what it means to be saved -that is, to be chosen by God before the foundation of the world (like he said he chose us).

*shrugs* It is only the certainty that God chose us that allows Paul to say that no force on earth or heaven can separate us from the love of God. That includes our own "choices".

 

[Ben johnson]

It is apparent to me that you believe that your salvation depends upon your works...

No.

whereas I believe that my salvation is dependant what Christ did for me on the Cross of Calvery.

I agree, perfectly; we disagree on the receiving of what He did.

There is nothing I can do in this mortal state that will add to the salvation that was guarunteed me by my FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ.

If you assert "faith alone", then we're more in agreement than not. But Calvinism does not assert "my faith alone" --- it asserts "God's-sovereign-CHOICE-alone", saving-faith being but consequential to His sovereign choice.

My rewards in heanven will be given for only those things that edify my Lord and Saviour. Those very good works that I may have done for my own glorification will not pass the test, as by fire.

My salvation is based upon what I have done with Christ, not by going back into legalism and trying to work my way to heaven.

You and I agree.

It is quite apparent that you and I will never agree without one of us changing our views.

If we both espouse different things, we are either SINGLY wrong, or BOTH wrong. This is why we participate in "Theological Debate" --- to reveal which view aligns with Scripture.

The price Christ paid on the Cross, was sufficient and complete; but it was a gift, and any gift must be received. Receiving a gift, by volition, changes nothing of the gift; it remains entirely of the giver.

You have not presented anything that will change my views.

You have not considered some of the things in my post. Why do you not believe that "imperishable wreath" in 1Cor9:25-27, is not "eternal life"?

What are your thoughts about what I said, of those who are trying to "deceive us away from Christ"? What do you make of Col2:6-8?

How do you understand 2Jn1:7-9?

Thanx in advance, and thanx for your participation this far.

 

[Dispy]

It is apparent to me that you believe that your salvation depends upon your works...

No.

A believer that "walks in the flesh" is demonstrating his works. So, let us consider 1 Cor. 3:8 "Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour (work).
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; (those things wich edify God/Jesus)

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide (those that edify God/Jesus) which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss (of rewards): but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire (the skin of his teeth, figuratively speaking).."

The above passage pertains only to believers. Unbelievers will not stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ, as stated above. All unbelievers works will be revealed at the Great White Throne Judgment Seat of Rev. 20:11-15. Those unbelievers will be cast into the fire that reveals their works.

You said in another post: "Because salvation is forfeitable." Well, if it is, then I never received salvation (eternal life), but placed on probation until the day I die, or am raptured.

whereas I believe that my salvation is dependant what Christ did for me on the Cross of Calvery.

I agree, perfectly; we disagree on the receiving of what He did.

I receive, by FAITH ALONE, what He did by believing in what He did. My Christian walk will not save me, however, I will recieve eternal life, and rewards for my works that were done soley for the edification of my Lord and Saviour.

How are you "receiving what he did?

There is nothing I can do in this mortal state that will add to the salvation that was guarunteed me by my FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ.

If you assert "faith alone", then we're more in agreement than not. But Calvinism does not assert "my faith alone" --- it asserts "God's-

Didn't know we were discussing Calvinism. Hey, I was being taught the Calvinist Hiedelberg Catechism even before I lost all my baby teeth. I came from a very long line of strong Calvinists. My early education was in the Christian Reform "Christian School." Two of my fathers first cousins were professors at Calvin College. One was even honored by having a "house" named after him. The Calvinist doctrine I no longer embrace. Yes, there are a few thing that I can agree with a Calvinist, but for entirely diffferent reasons.

My rewards in heanven will be given for only those things that edify my Lord and Saviour. Those very good works that I may have done for my own glorification will not pass the test, as by fire.

My salvation is based upon what I have done with Christ, not by going back into legalism and trying to work my way to heaven.

You and I agree.

But you say that I can lose my salvation if I, on occasions, please the flesh. Paul, in Romans 7:15-25, have the same mortal to fight on a daily basis. Howver I can find comfort in Romans 8:1 which states "There is therefore now no comdemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus...." (who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit) are interpolated into the text, but rightly stated in verse 4.

Paul wrote the above and is the same Paul that wrote Ephesians 1:12-14. He is not contradicting himself.

It is quite apparent that you and I will never agree without one of us changing our views.

If we both espouse different things, we are either SINGLY wrong, or BOTH wrong. This is why we participate in "Theological Debate" --- to reveal which view aligns with Scripture.

To this I can agree.

The price Christ paid on the Cross, was sufficient and complete; but it was a gift, and any gift must be received. Receiving a gift, by volition, changes nothing of the gift; it remains entirely of the giver.

Yes, The price Christ paid on the Corss was sufficient and complete. He paid the sin debt for all mankind. Therefore, no one will every stand before God and be judged according to their sins. At the Judgment Seat of Christ (1 Cor. 1:3-15) and The Great White Throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15) man will be judged "according to their works." Works of the flesh (sin) will be given their just reward, and cast into the fire.

Yes, salvation is a free gift. It is given to all who will place their FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ for their salvation. There are no strings attached. Therefore, it become the sole posession of the one that accepts the free gift. Salvation is the free gift of God's Grace.

You have not presented anything that will change my views.

You have not considered some of the things in my post. Why do you not believe that "imperishable wreath" in 1Cor9:25-27, is not "eternal life"?

What are your thoughts about what I said, of those who are trying to "deceive us away from Christ"? What do you make of Col2:6-8?

How do you understand 2Jn1:7-9?

Thanx in advance, and thanx for your participation this far.

I have considered every thing you posted, and replied to all of it.

I do believe that the "imperishable wreath" is eternal life. It is something we as believers strive for and will receive at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The more of our works that survive the test of fire, greater will be that "imperishable wreath" (crown of glory).

Col. 2:6-7 are excellent instructions for members of the Church, the Body of Christ. Verse 8 is a warning to those believers to be very careful of friends of satan.

John, in 2 John 1:7-9, is writeing to the dispersed Jewish believer as a result of the persecution. The same one that James, Peter, and John agreed to stay with in Gal. 2:9. He is warning them about the Judaizers that did not believe that Jesus was the Christ, the long promised Messiah. John is not writeing to members of the Chruch, the Body of Christ. I might add that even though John is not writing to members of the Body of Christ, there are many things that John writes that are just as applicable to us.

To "rightly divide" the Word, one must take into consideration to whom the author is writing and the purpose of the letter. The letters of James, 1, 2 Peter, and 1, 2, 3 John, are written to the dispersed Jews. When reading those letters, keep in mind that they are written to Jewish believers that were saved during the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom," and have an earthly kingdom to look forward to; which they will enter at the 2nd coming of Christ.

Members of the Body of Christ have a heavenly hope/home to look forward to, and were saved under "...the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began" (Rom.16:25), which is what we call/know today as "the gospel of the Grace of God."

 

[yashualover]

We must properly define "faith", and "elect". I think you're meaning "SAVING-faith". But you define "elect" as "God's sovereign pre-chosen".

While I perceive "elect", is whosoever believes.

Saving-faith is not a gift from God, at all; look at Heb11:6 --- God receives the faith of men who COME to Him, BY faith.

In Rom10:9-10, faith comes from our hearts; not "unilaterally from God".

In 2Tim3:16, studying the Scripture is able to give us wisdom that leads to saving-faith.

We decide, "YashuaLover".

It is apparent to me that you believe that your salvation depends upon your works...

 

[Ben johnson]

It is apparent to me that you believe that your salvation depends upon your works...

What in my words conveyed (or hinted at) "Works Salvation"? Our salvation does not depend on works, but depends on our faith. The question then becomes, "can our faith become unbelief?"

The Bible speaks of deceivers; look at 1Jn2:26-28 --- here we are again warned against deceivers, and admonished to "abide in Him, so that we not shrink-in-shame at His return".

If we do not abide (and if we shrink-in-shame), then we cannot be saved. So this absolutely speaks of "being deceived away from Christ".

Sin itself deceives us; Heb3:6-14 warns us to "not harden OUR hearts", to be careful 'cause sin hardens us to falling away from the living God". (A similar warning is in James1:14-16.)

Rom11:21-23 speaks of "don't be conceited, but fear; they fell for unbelief, you stand by faith --- if God did not spare THEM, neither will He spare YOU. His kindness is for you, if you CONTINUE in His kindness else YOU will be cut off. He will be severe to those who fell, unless they return to faith, then they will be grafted into Him again."

So it really looks like "saving-faith", can be "broken", doesn't it?

 

[Ben johnson]

Good post, Dispy. Alas, I shall have to respond later.

 

[Ormly]

lol *sighs*

Once saved always saved is a Scripture teaching if we understand what it means to be saved -that is, to be chosen by God before the foundation of the world (like he said he chose us).

*shrugs* It is only the certainty that God chose us that allows Paul to say that no force on earth or heaven can separate us from the love of God. That includes our own "choices".

Why not our own choices? Is our freewill subjugated to the sovereignty of God? Was it ever subjugated to the sovereignty of God?

 

[nobdysfool]

Oh, God forbid that He would be Sovereign over the will of man! How dare He impose His Will over the mighty will of man?

 

[yashualover]

Oh, God forbid that He would be Sovereign over the will of man! How dare He impose His Will over the mighty will of man?

LOL good one that was halarious

 

[yashualover]

What in my words conveyed (or hinted at) "Works Salvation"? Our salvation does not depend on works, but depends on our faith. The question then becomes, "can our faith become unbelief?"

The Bible speaks of deceivers; look at 1Jn2:26-28 --- here we are again warned against deceivers, and admonished to "abide in Him, so that we not shrink-in-shame at His return".

If we do not abide (and if we shrink-in-shame), then we cannot be saved. So this absolutely speaks of "being deceived away from Christ".

Sin itself deceives us; Heb3:6-14 warns us to "not harden OUR hearts", to be careful 'cause sin hardens us to falling away from the living God". (A similar warning is in James1:14-16.)

Rom11:21-23 speaks of "don't be conceited, but fear; they fell for unbelief, you stand by faith --- if God did not spare THEM, neither will He spare YOU. His kindness is for you, if you CONTINUE in His kindness else YOU will be cut off. He will be severe to those who fell, unless they return to faith, then they will be grafted into Him again."

So it really looks like "saving-faith", can be "broken", doesn't it?

Have you ever seen a dead man revive himself? LOL

 

[Ormly]

Have you ever seen a dead man revive himself? LOL

Is physical death the kind being discussed?

 

[Ormly]

Have you ever seen a dead man revive himself? LOL

Is physical death the kind being discussed?

 

[Ben johnson]

Have you ever seen a dead man revive himself? LOL

I'm aware of the view that,
"man is too corrupt to ever consider believing, therefore must be regenerated (made alive) first and then (and only then) he CAN believe."

Question --- how many times does God "save us by grace"? Once. Do you agree?

So, in Eph2:5, when he writes parenthetically "(by grace have you been saved)", and then in verse 8 he states "By grace have you been saved through faith", it establishes that "through faith" also applies to verse 5.

With me?

Now --- please read verse 5, with this established understanding:
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace [through faith] you have been saved)..."

Do you accept that "made alive" is "through faith", and happened "WHEN we were dead in sins"?

This establishes that a "dead-in-sins man can have saving-faith". And no verse can overturn it.

Other verses have been tried; 1Cor2:14 for instance --- yet when read with verse 12, the "spiritual things" of verse 14 (that the natural man cannot understand), are revealed by the RECEIVED Spirit in verse 12.

1. RECEIVED Spirit (belief!)
2. Spiritual things revealed (verse 12)
3. Natural man cannot understand spiritual things, because he has not received the Spirit.

The "things" of verse 14, are the same "things" as in verse 12, and clearly does not include "saving belief in Christ" (which is how the Spirit is received).

As I said, no verse asserts "spiritually-dead-in-sins-man cannot believe savingly in Christ". If you think this untrue, what verse?

 

[yashualover]

I'm aware of the view that,
"man is too corrupt to ever consider believing, therefore must be regenerated (made alive) first and then (and only then) he CAN believe."

Question --- how many times does God "save us by grace"? Once. Do you agree?

So, in Eph2:5, when he writes parenthetically "(by grace have you been saved)", and then in verse 8 he states "By grace have you been saved through faith", it establishes that "through faith" also applies to verse 5.

With me?

Now --- please read verse 5, with this established understanding:
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace [through faith] you have been saved)..."

Do you accept that "made alive" is "through faith", and happened "WHEN we were dead in sins"?

This establishes that a "dead-in-sins man can have saving-faith". And no verse can overturn it.

Other verses have been tried; 1Cor2:14 for instance --- yet when read with verse 12, the "spiritual things" of verse 14 (that the natural man cannot understand), are revealed by the RECEIVED Spirit in verse 12.

1. RECEIVED Spirit (belief!)
2. Spiritual things revealed (verse 12)
3. Natural man cannot understand spiritual things, because he has not received the Spirit.

The "things" of verse 14, are the same "things" as in verse 12, and clearly does not include "saving belief in Christ" (which is how the Spirit is received).

As I said, no verse asserts "spiritually-dead-in-sins-man cannot believe savingly in Christ". If you think this untrue, what verse?

1Co 2:12 Now, we have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who comes from God, so that we can understand the things that were freely given to us by God.
1Co 2:13 We don't speak about these things in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, as we explain spiritual things to spiritual people.
1Co 2:14 A person who isn't spiritual doesn't accept the things of God's Spirit, for they are nonsense to him. He can't understand them because they are spiritually evaluated.

I'm sorry Ben, I do not see that man can even have any faith to believe unless it is given to him from the Father.

Those who are not spiritual must be made spiritual before they will have any desire for God. 1Cor 2:14 clearily states that.

If we were saved by our act of faith this would be works salvation.


Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love for us
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead because of our offenses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Eph 2:8 For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God
Eph 2:9 and not the result of works, lest anyone boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared long ago to be our way of life.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Rom8:12-13 speaks of "walking in the Spirit", and "walking in the flesh" --- plainly stating that "if we walk in the flesh, we must die".

this is talking about romans 6:11-13
the mental aspect of eph 4:23 of renewing your mind

Do you accept that "walk-in-flesh", must die?
There is a choice, "A_Brother" --- we walk either in uncleanness, or in Christ. The former is not saved.

have you studied the 3 different levels of maturity that I wrote earlier 1 jn 2:12-14

children... understand that God died for there sins
young men... they have learned to abide in Christ
Fathers


now when you state john 15:5 ... children learn this threw a maturing process of 2peter 3:18

Because salvation is forfeitable.

verse please ... these are your words ... never in scripture

What does verse 9 say? The man who LACKS the godly qualities is blind/short-sighted-FORGOTTEN-former-purification. He's held out as the "bad example".

yet purification happened which happens once heb 10:12 by JC and is a overcomer 1 jn 5:4-5

"THEREFORE (against that bad-example-man), we must be all the more diligent to... make sure of our calling and election; in this way the gates of Heaven will be (abundantly) provided.

go to hell or will never fall ...vs 10

what does you bible say...or is this ben paraphrase and if so no God word

There are no gates, to the man who has forgotten purification.
Yet you view him as "SAVED"? How, why?

vs 4 that you might be paratkers of divine nature... believers that need to place there mind in the spirit and not the flesh ... part of 1 thes 5:23

David repented; and because of that repentance he did not die.

what fruit did he make?

called righteous without works ... romans 4:6

Had he not repented, he would have died.

is david still alive... ? no ... but he will be glorified

 

[Ben johnson]

A believer that "walks in the flesh" is demonstrating his works.

Hi, Dispy. In my understanding, there is no such thing as "a believer who walks in the flesh". By definition, one who believes and receives Jesus, walks in Him; he who does not walk in Christ (but in sins), does not really believe.

So, let us consider 1 Cor. 3:8...

The above passage pertains only to believers. Unbelievers will not stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ, as stated above. All unbelievers' works will be revealed at the Great White Throne Judgment Seat of Rev. 20:11-15. Those unbelievers will be cast into the fire that reveals their works.

I believe that passage connects to 1Pet1:6-7, where the "fire of trials" refines us (as fire refines gold). "Saved through fire", to me conveys "taught to produce better works".

You said in another post: "Because salvation is forfeitable." Well, if it is, then I never received salvation (eternal life), but placed on probation until the day I die, or am raptured.

Please consider that as "salvation is by grace through faith", specifically faith that receives Christ and abides in Him (and Him in us), if that faith can become unbelief, then we cease to be saved. Not "probation", not "unsaved". It is as John said in 2:1:7-9, he who goes too far (because of listening to deceivers) and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, has not God; he who abides in the teachings, has the Father and the Son."

As 1Jn5:11-13 says, "He who has the Son, has eternal life; I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know you have eternal life."

Because "belief" can be deceived and end, so too can salvation...

I receive, by FAITH ALONE, what He did by believing in what He did. My Christian walk will not save me, however, I will recieve eternal life, and rewards for my works that were done soley for the edification of my Lord and Saviour.

Perhaps our disagreement is on the source of our "saving-faith". If it's a unilateral gift from God, then of course it cannot end. But if we DECIDE to believe, we can later decide to disbelieve. This is the message in so many passages; Heb3:6-14 (and 4:11!) foremost, and James1:14-16, 1Tim4:16. Peter does an excellent warning in 2:1:5-10...

How are you "receiving what he did?

By faith. My faith. And in Him I dwell, by faith. His power, my belief; His might, my diligence. His righteousness, my conscious submission to Him.

Didn't know we were discussing Calvinism. Hey, I was being taught the Calvinist Hiedelberg Catechism even before I lost all my baby teeth. I came from a very long line of strong Calvinists. My early education was in the Christian Reform "Christian School." Two of my fathers first cousins were professors at Calvin College. One was even honored by having a "house" named after him. The Calvinist doctrine I no longer embrace. Yes, there are a few thing that I can agree with a Calvinist, but for entirely diffferent reasons.

There are three "OSAS" positions; the second is Calvinism.

The third I call "Eternal Security". It asserts that atonement is unlimited (all men CAN believe); but once "in", either a man's heart is too changed to DISbelieve, or God dynamically interferes to prevent apostasy.[/b] Do you hold to this?

But you say that I can lose my salvation if I, on occasions, please the flesh. Paul, in Romans 7:15-25, have the same mortal to fight on a daily basis. Howver I can find comfort in Romans 8:1 which states "There is therefore now no comdemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus...." (who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit) are interpolated into the text, but rightly stated in verse 4.

Please read the context of ch8 --- it's the answer to the problem in ch7. And Paul clearly presents "walking in the Spirit, or walking in the flesh", as possible.

What is the consequence of walking in the flesh? Verse 8:12-14.

Paul wrote the above and is the same Paul that wrote Ephesians 1:12-14. He is not contradicting himself.

No, he doesn't; but if what Paul says contradicts my doctrine, or your doctrine, then we will do well to re-examine our positions.

To this I can agree.

Yes, The price Christ paid on the Corss was sufficient and complete. He paid the sin debt for all mankind. Therefore, no one will every stand before God and be judged according to their sins.

I think you're missing the fact that sins are not forgiven, without repentance. As Jesus said in Lk13:3, "Unless you REPENT, you will perish".

At the Judgment Seat of Christ (1 Cor. 1:3-15) and The Great White Throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15) man will be judged "according to their works." Works of the flesh (sin) will be given their just reward, and cast into the fire.

The WORKS will be cast into the fire, but the people will NOT?

They will. Rev20:12&15 is clear; he who has sinful works, is also he who is not written in the Book of Life; he is cast into the fire.

Yes, salvation is a free gift. It is given to all who will place their FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ for their salvation. There are no strings attached. Therefore, it become the sole posession of the one that accepts the free gift. Salvation is the free gift of God's Grace.

I agree --- and yet, there is far more required of us. It is not "mere belief" that saves us --- as James says, "You believe in one God; you do well. But even demons believe, and shudder." 2:19

No, it is only a certain kind of belief that saves us --- the kind that receives the indwelling Lord and Spirit; the kind that therefore (because of Him-in-us) PRODUCES good works.

I have considered every thing you posted, and replied to all of it.

I do believe that the "imperishable wreath" is eternal life.

I'm very pleased.

It is something we as believers strive for and will receive at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The more of our works that survive the test of fire, greater will be that "imperishable wreath" (crown of glory).

Since you accept that "we race for the imperishable wreath", then how could either of us deny that Paul expressed concern about "being disqualified from HIS race"? The term "adokimos", was significant --- they would collect coins, and examine them to see if they were worn; if a coin no longer bore the image that had been impressed upon it, it was "adokimos-disqualified-unapproved". Rejected. Thrown away.

Col. 2:6-7 are excellent instructions for members of the Church, the Body of Christ. Verse 8 is a warning to those believers to be very careful of friends of satan.

Be careful, why? Explicitly stated, to "not be taken captive by worldly philosophy, rather than according to Christ".

If someone is taken-captive away from Christ, is he still saved?

John, in 2 John 1:7-9, is writing to the dispersed Jewish believer as a result of the persecution. The same one that James, Peter, and John agreed to stay with in Gal. 2:9. He is warning them about the Judaizers that did not believe that Jesus was the Christ, the long promised Messiah. John is not writing to members of the Church, the Body of Christ. I might add that even though John is not writing to members of the Body of Christ, there are many things that John writes that are just as applicable to us.

He's writing to the "chosen lady and her children". Gotta mean "us".

To "rightly divide" the Word, one must take into consideration to whom the author is writing and the purpose of the letter. The letters of James, 1, 2 Peter, and 1, 2, 3 John, are written to the dispersed Jews. When reading those letters, keep in mind that they are written to Jewish believers that were saved during the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom," and have an earthly kingdom to look forward to; which they will enter at the 2nd coming of Christ.

Under the New Covenant, there is neither "Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female; we are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal3:26 I do not perceive James' or Peter's letters, to align with anything else.

Members of the Body of Christ have a heavenly hope/home to look forward to, and were saved under "...the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began" (Rom.16:25), which is what we call/know today as "the gospel of the Grace of God."

The same ideals expressed by Peter, the warnings for "diligence in faith", Paul echoes. The same admonitions written by James, John echoes. I see complete harmony.

BTW, if we do not come to agreement (and no two people will agree on everything), I pray that each of us is driven deeper into Scripture, closer to God, and more matured to be useful in His great harvest.

That accomplished, Christ has won through us.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

How does saying "two camps", answer Eph5:5-6?

children of disobedience.... in eph 5:6
children of disobedience are impowered by the prince of the power of the air which is Satan in eph 2:2

eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them...

#1 them... children of disobedience
#2 you ... children of light vs eph 5:8

believers sinning ... wow
thus the reason for 1 jn 1:8-10

Paul writes "impure/immoral men will not inherit" --- but your position is "they will inherit". How do you overturn Paul?

Matt 7:21-23 states moral men going to Hell

2 Cor 11:13-15 moral unsaved men righteous in the eye of this world ... going to be judge by their works

connect to rev 20:11-15 where the dead will also be judged by their works

Disobedience is walking in sin. Not submitting to His Lordship.

true...

We are in the world --- we are "wheat". Tares are in the world --- tares are not saved. When the Great harvest comes, we (wheat) will be harvested, but the tares (unsaved, weeds) will be burned.
We cannot be "good" --- we can only implore Him to be good IN, and THROUGH us.

What does that verse say to you? To me, it says "we are changed into His image". That's "not-pursuing-sin", A_Brother.

2 cor 3:18 states changed from glory to glory ... this is a process low light to a medium light .... we will all shine like the Son in 1 jn 3:2-3

If they do NOT walk as children of light, then they walk after darkness and sin; and are not saved.

depend on their hope ... and God nows...

the corthinians were carnal ... 1 cor 3:1-3 but in 1 cor 1:2 Paul calls the set apart[holy] by Gods work not theres

As James4 says, "friendship with the world is enmity against God." How do you believe that "God will still welcome such enemies into Heaven"?

God knows who are the overcomers 1 jn 5:4-5

by the way Satan goes there right now... job 1:6

Those who believe, are not sleeping/dead. The sleeping/dead, are not true believers.

explain romans 13:11, 1 thes 5:1-10

True belief follows Christ; he who practices sin does not know God, but belongs to the devil.

believers can sin but they do not practice it

practice sin is a life time of doing the sin

You're denying verse 16:
Do you not know, that when you submit yourselves as servants of obedience, you are slaves to the one you obey? EITHER of sin unto DEATH, OR of obedience unto righteousness.

so explain why 2 cor 11:13-15 and matt 7:21-23 why moral people go to HELL

Do you accept that "slaves of sin, unto death", cannot enter into "eternal life"?

maturity of children of God to young men .. John 2:12-14

Why do you insert "ARE RIGHT NOW"? Please tell me how "thieves/covetous/drunkards/carousers", have been washed (if they still wallow in such dirt)?

call positional truth... 1 cor 12:12-13

"Rom 4:5But to him that does not work, but believes on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Do you accept that "He whom God justifies/sanctifies/washes/regenerates", is no longer "ungodly"?

please read ..... 1 jn 3:2-3

God is graceful to the unrighteous? Then God would be unjust. The wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience, the ones who are immoral/impure/covetous/idolaters. Have you any way to discount Paul's words?
"CLEANSE us"? Please consider that "cleanse us", precludes continuance in filth.
Christ Himself is the "purifying effect". And the Spirit washes/regenerates us.
And whoever abides in Christ, abides in repentance, not in sin.

young men have learned to abide ... 1 jn 2:12-14... degrees of maturity


children have not!

No, they're not.
Jude15: To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. Nothing in here that pretends "the ungodly will be saved".
You're completely misunderstanding --- you see God as "throwing a bucket of whitewash, over their sins" --- when the truth is that He washes them from the iniside out.

funny how the blood cover the sins from lambs and Christ is the Lamb that cover are sins till we see His face

And what is the consequence? They shall not spend eternity with him. Look at the contrast between those in Rom9:18-20 (repeated in Heb3:16-18), and how WE are warned not to "fall and fail to enter God's rest, by IMITATING the Israelites' disobedience and unbelief". Heb4:11.That passage says that they masquerade as God's disciples; but (15) their end will be according to their works

1 cor 11:13-15 righteous moral unbelievers .... aka sons of satan


children of satan do eph 5:5-6

Do you remember how those who SEEK glory/honor/righteousness receive eternal life, but those who SEEK selfish ambition and unrighteousness receive God's wrath? Rom2:6-8.
Right --- by destroying sinfulness. Those who belong to Christ, do not walk in sin. 1Jn1:6-7
You can't do that; Rom7 speaks about the "war between the two natures" --- where Paul, striving to serve God, finds himself doing the very sin he did not want to do. He cries out in anguish, "Who will SAVE me from this war?" And then Paul answers the question, in chapter 8; we walk NOT in sin (if we do we must die!!!) --- but if by the Spirit we put to DEATH sinful flesh (that means "do not dwell in sin"), we will live.
How long is a season? Please review Luke15:13, and ONLY verse 13 --- at that moment, is the "Prodigal Son", saved? (If he had died right then, would he have gone to Heaven?)
Do you assert that "children of the devil", are still "saved"?

waiting a response

 

[Ben johnson]

1Co 2:12 Now, we have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who comes from God, so that we can understand the things that were freely given to us by God.
1Co 2:13 We don't speak about these things in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, as we explain spiritual things to spiritual people.
1Co 2:14 A person who isn't spiritual doesn't accept the things of God's Spirit, for they are nonsense to him. He can't understand them because they are spiritually evaluated.

I'm sorry Ben, I do not see that man can even have any faith to believe unless it is given to him from the Father.

What is established by the context (verse 12), is that "received-Spirit", precedes "know spiritual things".

This ruins the assertion that "natural men cannot believe savingly, because they've not been given spiritual understanding" --- we also had no such spiritual understanding, until we believed Jesus and RECEIVED the Spirit.

Make sense? "Received-Spirit", precedes "spiritual understanding". The Calvinistic view is "spiritual understanding precedes belief and receiving of the Spirit".

Do you have any way to deny the sequence of "receive-Spirit", and "understanding of the things in verse 12, and in verse 14"?

Those who are not spiritual must be made spiritual before they will have any desire for God. 1Cor 2:14 clearily states that.

Not if those things in verse 14 (which are the same things as in verse 12), are revealed by the RECEIVED (by belief!) Spirit. The only possibility is that saving-belief in Christ, is not one of the "spiritually-revealed-things" spoken of in 12, and 14.

If we were saved by our act of faith this would be works salvation.

ONLY if we have faith in OURSELVES. Faith that saves, surrenders completely to HIM, and receives HIS gift of salvation. This removes all merit from our "belief", instead puts all the power and merit in HIM.

If I'm paddlocked to a railroad, and a train is about to crush me, and if a man runs up and hands me the key to the lock, then there is no merit in my decision to TAKE the key and release the lock. All the merit is in my RESCUER. Make sense?

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love for us
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead because of our offenses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Eph 2:8 For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God
Eph 2:9 and not the result of works, lest anyone boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared long ago to be our way of life.

The context, clearly asserts "WHEN you were dead in sins, God made you alive ....through faith." This ruins the idea that "made-alive, must precede faith".

A dead man, can believe; it is how we are made alive.

Look at 1Cor1:18-21; the Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing, but power to we who are being saved. BUT --- God is pleased, THROUGH the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. Notice that the message is foolish, up to the MOMENT a person believes.

The message has the power of conviction, to faith. As worded in 2Tim3:16: "Since childhood, you have known the sacred Scriptures, which are able to give you wisdom (conviction!) that leads to saving-faith in Christ Jesus."

Do you understand now, how those who hold to "Responsible Grace", find it supported in Scripture?

 

[Catholic Christian]

I dont get it