Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

[A Brother In Christ]

ABIC, you know how to tell when Ben is refuted? He stops responding.

Bro, Ben won't answer, because you have him pinned.

Maybe your right .... proof is in the pudding

 

[nobdysfool]

Maybe your right .... proof is in the pudding

I know I'm right....

 

[A Brother In Christ]

in a gentleman discussion .... that means he gave up?

 

[nobdysfool]

in a gentleman discussion .... that means he gave up?

Pretty much.

 

[Dispy]

How is one saved?

1 Cor. 15: "1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Ephesians 1:13 " In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of you salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory."

Is that salvation secure (OSAS)?

Can they stop believing? Can they turn away?

Paul, addressing believers in 2 Tim. 2:13 states: "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

All members of the Body of Christ are members of His flesh and of His bones (Eph. 5:30). Therefore, If one can lose one's salvation, what part of His flesh and of His bones will he cast into hell?

 

[Ormly]

Dispy,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
Can they stop believing? Can they turn away?

Paul, addressing believers in 2 Tim. 2:13 states: "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

All members of the Body of Christ are members of His flesh and of His bones (Eph. 5:30). Therefore, If one can lose one's salvation, what part of His flesh and of His bones will he cast into hell?

Shall we qualify that statement by Paul to mean something other than a generalized remark that would infer we can be sloppy about about believing; grieve the Holy Spirit to perhaps apostacy and God just still be found faithful?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Paul, addressing believers in 2 Tim. 2:13 states: "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

All members of the Body of Christ are members of His flesh and of His bones (Eph. 5:30). Therefore, If one can lose one's salvation, what part of His flesh and of His bones will he cast into hell?

one of the few that understand this! amen

 

[Ben johnson]

ABIC, you know how to tell when Ben is refuted? He stops responding.

Bro, Ben won't answer, because you have him pinned.

Maybe your right .... proof is in the pudding

in a gentleman discussion .... that means he gave up?

Pretty much.

So --- this is a test of my maturity, in how I respond? Then perhaps the mature thing is to not respond at all.

Although, these posts do make me wonder if we can have productive discourse.

eph 5:1 Be therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Matt 18:3-6 children do not make it complicated

eph 5: 2 and walk in love, as Christ also loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour.

love is a fruit from the spirit ... Gal 5:22-26 if not walking in the spirit they are focusing their minds on things of the earth thus becoming carnal ... thus gal 5:26 vain glory, provoking and envying other believers

It remains for you to explain Gal5:21 --- "I have warned you that those who practice these things will not inherit the kingdom of God." How does that become "they'll get in"?

Christ examples of love prior to the new comandment in John 13:34-35 is in John 13:13-15 washing the feet of the servants the more mature [master/Lord] seeing a need [dirty feet] and loving them without cost to himself. conects to 1 jn 3:16-18

Focus on verse 17 here --- now read 1Jn4:16: "God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him."

Verse 17 asserts that God's love does NOT abide in the one who ignores his brother's physical needs.

Do you accept that "God's-love-not-abiding" in someone, means they are "not saved"?

Sacrifice goes to Romans 12:1-2 to present a living sacrifice

eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be named among you, as becometh saints;

why are saints told this it is possible for them to walk in the flesh

As I responded before, it is possible to walk in the flesh --- but as Rom8:12-14 states "If we DO walk in the flesh we must die".

Thus, "walk-in-flesh", and "must-die", isn't saved.

2 peter 1:4 Given the greatest and best promises so that they might be parataker in the divine nature

eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving thanks.

these believers were having a problem of giving thanks in all things .. 1 thes 5:16-18 so they joked about it

Verse 5-6 states "No impure or immoral man, no idolater or coveter, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God (God's wrath comes upon such)."

How does that become "they have an inheritance"?

unclean person is one that has not been cover by the blood of Christ ... by the washing of the Holy Spirit

Correct --- so how does an unwashed/unclean person enter Heaven?

King David did several of these things but before He did God promised He would be the King during the 1000 yr reign ... Thus showing that GOD in his all knowingness knew that he would murder and covet his neigbor wife then committing adultry thus making him unclean .... That God would cover his sins already... Romans 4:5-8

David repented. Do you deny this?

Two camps ... 1 jn 3:10 children of God and the children of satan

What does this mean? If you have found a way that "children of satan" will enter Heaven, how does that work?

disobedience is the belief that Jesus died for their sins was buried three days and arose from the dead in a new body is God ... adding to this or subtracting to this gospel they are children of disobedience

In Heb5:9, "He is the source of salvation for all who obey Him". In Heb4:11, "be diligent to enter God's rest, lest anyone FALL by imitating their (Israelites') disobedience."

How can there persist a view of "disobedient-SAVED"?

eph 5:7 Be not therefore parataker with them.

Exactly that, my friend; now is exposed the truth of Scripture --- "Do not be UNSAVED".

possible for wheat and tares to intermingle ... matt 13:25,38

"Wheat" is saved, "tares" are not.

we are to be good by giving the hope in us... but this does not always happen

If we walk in Him, it happens. If we do not walk in Him but walk in sins/flesh, we aren't saved.

this is about consistanty.. in your walk other wise they would not need to be reminded .... this is about God's desireous will not determintive will

It's a salvational issue.

there problem is they they were loving the world and fellowshipping with them..... in stead of fellowshipping with other believers

As James says in 4:4, "You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. "

eph 5:14 Wherefore He saith Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine thru you.

This is salvational. "Asleep/dead", isn't saved.

telling the believers who were sinning to remind themselves who they are in Christ ... paid for by the blood 1 cor 6:19-20 once and for all heb 10:14-18

How shall I convince you that "sinning", does not fit "believers"?

Christ is already sealed this sinner who believed ...eph 1:13, rev 3:5, eph 4:30

The seal can be broken, by sin and unbelief.

count what is true romans 6:11-13 so that God can be shown forth out of the dirt of man God character can be shown forth

Context clearly asserts "CHOOSE either sin, OR God".

1 cor 6:11 and such were some of you [ARE RIGHT NOW] . but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, But ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our Lord.

Sorry --- one is not still dirty after being washed.

all this is God's work ... do all christian live up to God's standards no.... but God is mercyiful and graceous

God overlooks unbelief and sinfulness?

Then God is not "just".

the hope of the rapture has a purifing affect... if looking to one's promises

Those who practice righteousness, are God's children; those who practice wickedness, are satan's children.

Which children enter Heaven?

commit = practice = pattern of whole life not a season

Tell me something --- in Luke15:13, and only verse 13 --- is that son "saved"?

I look forward to your response.

 

[yashualover]

False converts or false teaching? Most baptists churches in my area are dead or dying. Upon investigation what is found is the same old worn out salvation message preached every sunday. . . . to the same people.

I agree.

 

[Ben johnson]

Well, how far are you willing to go against Scripture's view of God?
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? Rom 9:18-21

You have the Bible. Listen to it.

First, that passage of Romans is a rebellious response that someone might make, who objects to "Also-Gentiles" being saved.

Second --- Rom11:32 says "God has mercy on ALL".

Do you believe He has mercy on all?

Scripture actually contradicted this addition of yours:
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. Rom 9:15-16

God has mercy on all. Do you believe this?

There's no mention here, Ormly, of someone who's willing to be merciful. In fact there's explicit denial. Because someone who's willing to be merciful is willing. And "it depends not on human will."

It doesn't take long to see these facts. They're written on the page. They've been here for millenia.

WHAT depends not on human will?

God's mercy?
Or man's faith?

Faith doesn’t come from the human will...

Yes, it does. "With the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Rom10:9-10

"Without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who comes to God must believe God IS, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." Heb11:6

God's position is receiving the faith of those who believe.

acting upon it, does.

In Matt7:24-27, "acts", is "believes".

But that action doesn't influence God's choosing people:

So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. Rom 9:15-16

Does God have mercy on all, or not? Rom12:32

I submit Scripture answers that as well. "Even the demons believe -- and tremble!" Believing, and wanting it to be otherwise, is a dead faith. This is no way to be saved by God.

What of those who believed (and with joy) in Lk8:13? Is there anything to imply their beginning faith, wasn't the same as the beginning faith of those in verse 15?

It is what Paul is speaking of.
... even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea,

"Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
"And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"

Show me anywhere in Scripture where any man is "not called". Matt22:2-14 says "many are called, but few are chosen" --- the chosen, are those who answered the call --- both by coming, and by clothing themselves in the king's righteousness.

What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. Rom 9:24-26, 30-32

Do you recognize that "they did not pursue by FAITH, but by WORKS", conveys "volition"?

It's what Paul is talking about. He's talking about God choosing people for His mercy, calling them to rely on Jesus Christ. It's individuals (Rom 9:19-20 can't be understood any other way), and God is responsible for those He has mercy on, and those He hardens. (Rom 9:8-18)

Secondly, God has mercy on ALL.

Firstly, the "hardening to falling away from the living God", is asserted to be by OURSELVES. Do you dispute Heb3:8-12?

 

[yashualover]

Stay in your wilful ignorance. I have no time for foolishness. . . or kids.

Do you believe God chose you because you were righteous?

Do you believe He chose you because chose Him?

I suggest that you listen to heymickey80, he has shown you plenty of scriptures which are undeniable.

 

[Ben johnson]

Do you believe God chose you because you were righteous?

No. But where does righteousness come from? Per Rom10:9, "heart-belief" consequents in righteousness.

Do you believe He chose you because chose Him?

In a word, YES.

In 2Thess2:13, we were "chosen from the beginning ...THROUGH FAITH." Do you believe what Paul wrote?

I suggest that you listen to heymikey80, he has shown you plenty of scriptures which are undeniable.

The Scriptures are undeniable; his interpretation, is not. Please read my post to Mike, #650.

All three views of "OSAS", are overturned; including "Calvinism".

God's perspective is to receive man's faith (making God passive and man active in belief), not to cause it. Verses on request.

Whaddya think?

 

[Ormly]

Do you believe God chose you because you were righteous?

He chose me before I was born. How could I be righteous at that point in time. I suggest you do a study about the foreknowledge of God and how He uses that method to determine His choices.

Do you believe He chose you because chose Him?

Again, you speak of th eforeknowledge of God. He chose me before the foundation of the world. He knew I would respond and thus ordered my steps.

Can you grasp that?

I suggest that you listen to heymickey80, he has shown you plenty of scriptures which are undeniable.

Oh, not in my estimation where it can be seen that he has taken scripture out context, ignored-dismissed out of hand, scripture that refutes his argument, as what must be done in order to precerve your view.

"Whosoever, will, let him come" . . . Jesus.
Does that sound like Jesus chooses for salvation?

 

[Ben johnson]

Paul, addressing believers in 2 Tim. 2:13 states: "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

Is "unfaithfulness", presented as possible for us? Does to me...

All members of the Body of Christ are members of His flesh and of His bones (Eph. 5:30). Therefore, If one can lose one's salvation, what part of His flesh and of His bones will he cast into hell?

That's the point, Dispy. You are completely correct --- salvation is "in Christ". Thus, the discussion is to reveal if someone who IS (or was) "in Christ", can ever become NOT-in-Christ.

In 1Cor9:25-27, Paul worries about his OWN position "in Christ" --- stating that he could be found "adokimos-disqualified". This connects with 2Cor13:5, where WE are admonished to "examine ourselves to see if WE are 'in Christ' --- Christ is in us, unless we 'adokimos-fail-the-test'."

Can we deny that unfaithfulness is possible, and if we become unfaithful, we will no longer be "in Christ"?

So we're warned in passage after passage after passage to be "diligent in our faith, that the gates of Heaven be provided", that "as we persevere in our diligence we will save ourselves". 2Pet2:5-10, 1Tim4:16

Whaddya think?

 

[Dispy]

Can they stop believing? Can they turn away?

Paul, addressing believers in 2 Tim. 2:13 states: "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

All members of the Body of Christ are members of His flesh and of His bones (Eph. 5:30). Therefore, If one can lose one's salvation, what part of His flesh and of His bones will he cast into hell?

Shall we qualify that statement by Paul to mean something other than a generalized remark that would infer we can be sloppy about about believing; grieve the Holy Spirit to perhaps apostacy and God just still be found faithful?

I will qualify that statement for you. But first of all -

According to 1 Cor. 3:10-17, all believer will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ; where our works will be judged.

2 Tim. 2:12 "If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him; if we deny Him (deny Him our service), He will also deny us (deny us rewards): If we believe not (become unfaithful); He cannot deny Himself.

 

[Ormly]

I will qualify that statement for you. But first of all -

According to 1 Cor. 3:10-17, all believer will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ; where our works will be judged.

2 Tim. 2:12 "If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him; if we deny Him He will also deny us (deny us rewards): If we believe not (become unfaithful); He cannot deny Himself.

What do you mean by suffering for the Lord? Also, This: (deny Him our service) is not what Paul is inferring but rather all out denial. (become unfaithful) No, not unfaithful. Try weakness in our believing Him for His sustaining grace.

 

[Dispy]

Paul, addressing believers in 2 Tim. 2:13 states: "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

Is "unfaithfulness", presented as possible for us? Does to me...

Being we believers still have the "old sin nature" within us, therefore, it is very possible for us to be unfaithful, and grieve the Holy Slpirit.

All members of the Body of Christ are members of His flesh and of His bones (Eph. 5:30). Therefore, If one can lose one's salvation, what part of His flesh and of His bones will he cast into hell?

That's the point, Dispy. You are completely correct --- salvation is "in Christ". Thus, the discussion is to reveal if someone who IS (or was) "in Christ", can ever become NOT-in-Christ.

Once one places their FAITH in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection) of Christ for their salvation, that one is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise until the day of redemption (Eph. 1:13). Neither satan, nor I, have enough power to break that seal.

In 1Cor9:25-27, Paul worries about his OWN position "in Christ" --- stating that he could be found "adokimos-disqualified". This connects with 2Cor13:5, where WE are admonished to "examine ourselves to see if WE are 'in Christ' --- Christ is in us, unless we 'adokimos-fail-the-test'."

Paul, in 1 Cor. 9:25-27 is equating our Christian walk (run), with that of an athletic event. We as believers must run our "walK" as one in a foot race. We must run to seek the hightest reward at the end. At the Judgment Seat of Christ, each believer will received the rewards for their works. Those who'sworks that do not survive the "trial by fire" will still be saved, as by the skin of their teeth.

I personally do not believe that Paul, in his example of an athletic event, is speaking of loss of salvation, but the loss of rewards at the end of the race, i. e. Judgment Seat of Christ.

Can we deny that unfaithfulness is possible, and if we become unfaithful, we will no longer be "in Christ"?

Unfaithfulness is definately possibe. However, once one is "in Christ" there is no way that satan, or anyone else can break the seal. Yes, I can sin, and lose fellowship, and grieve the Holy Spirit, but I will still be saved, "as by the skin of my teeth."

So we're warned in passage after passage after passage to be "diligent in our faith, that the gates of Heaven be provided", that "as we persevere in our diligence we will save ourselves". 2Pet2:5-10, 1Tim4:16

Don't believe that Paul is worrying about Timothy's salvation, but that continuing in his teaching/preaching is beneficial to his and all his listeners salvation.

I find it very difficult to read 2 Pet. 2:5-10 into the Pauline Epistles. Peter and Paul are writeing to two different groups of believers. Peter is writeing to those Jewish believers that were saved under the dispensation of the Law and "the gospel of the kingdom." They are the Jews of the dispersion. They are the ones that James, Cephas (Peter) and John, agreeed to stay with in Gal. 2:9. Paul is writeing to members of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, were are saved under the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began. That gospel we know as "the gospel of the Grace of God."

Whaddya think?

Well, I gave you my views.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[Dispy]

Tim. 2:12 "If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him; if we deny Him He will also deny us (deny us rewards): If we believe not (become unfaithful); He cannot deny Himself.

What do you mean by suffering for the Lord? Also, This: (deny Him our service) is not what Paul is inferring but rather all out denial. (become unfaithful) No, not unfaithful. Try weakness in our believing Him for His sustaining grace.

If you are familiar with your Bible at all, you will notice that those that followed Jesus, and those that preached His message of salvation, suffered much for the Lord. Many preaching today are also suffering for the Lord. So what part of the word "suffer" don't you understand.

In our service for the Lord, one can expect suffering of one sort or another. Could be mental or physical.

Our weakness is usually demonstrated by our unfathfulness.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

eph 5:1 Be therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Matt 18:3-6 children do not make it complicated

eph 5: 2 and walk in love, as Christ also loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour.

love is a fruit from the spirit ... Gal 5:22-26 if not walking in the spirit they are focusing their minds on things of the earth thus becoming carnal ... thus gal 5:26 vain glory, provoking and envying other believers

Christ examples of love prior to the new comandment in John 13:34-35 is in John 13:13-15 washing the feet of the servants the more mature [master/Lord] seeing a need [dirty feet] and loving them without cost to hisself. conects to 1 jn 3:16-18

Sacrifice goes to Romans 12:1-2 to present a living sacrifice

eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be named among you, as becometh saints;

why are saints told this it is possible for them to walk in the flesh
2 peter 1:4 Given the greatest and best promises so that they might be parataker in the divine nature

eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving thanks.

these believers were having a problem of giving thanks in all things .. 1 thes 5:16-18 so they joked about it

eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

unclean person is one that has not been cover by the blood of Christ ... by the washing of the Holy Spirit

King David did several of these things but before He did God promised He would be the King during the 1000 yr reign ... Thus showing that GOD in his all knowingness knew that he would murder and covet his neigbor wife then committing adultry thus making him unclean .... That God would cover his sins already... Romans 4:5-8

eph 5:6 Let no man decieve you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the son's of disobedience.

Two camps ... 1 jn 3:10 children of God and the children of satan

1 cor 11:30-32, 1 thes 5:10, 1 thes 1:10

disobedience is the belief that Jesus died for there sins was buried three days and arose from the dead in a new body is God ... adding to this or subtracting to this gospel they are children of disobedience

eph 5:7 Be not therefore parataker with them.

possible for wheat and tares to intermingle ... matt 13:25,38

we are to be good by giving the hope in us... but this does not always happen

2 cor 3:18

eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

this is about consistanty.. in your walk other wise they would not need to be reminded .... this is about God's desireous will not determintive will

eph 5:11 and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather reprove them.

there problem is they they were loving the world and fellowshipping with them..... in stead of fellowshipping with other believers

eph 5:14 Wherefore He saith Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine thru you.

telling the believers who were sinning to remind themselves who they are in Christ ... paid for by the blood 1 cor 6:19-20 once and for all heb 10:14-18

Christ is already sealed this sinner who believed ...eph 1:13, rev 3:5, eph 4:30

count what is true romans 6:11-13 so that God can be shown forth out of the dirt of man God character can be shown forth



1 cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God? Be not decieve: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulters, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 cor 6:11 and such were some of you [ARE RIGHT NOW] . but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, But ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our Lord.

This connects to romans 4:5

all this is God's work ... do all christian live up to God's standards no.... but God is mercyiful and graceous

1john 3:2 Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.

1 jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

1 jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


1 jn 3:3 and every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself even as He is pure.

the hope of the rapture has a purifing affect... if looking to one's promises

1 jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

romans 4:15-16.... law is to unbelievers used to show they need a saviour... 1 tim 1:9.. ungodly Jude 15.... Yet to those ungodly that Believe that Jesus is God and died for their sins they are called righteous... romans 4:5

1 jn 3:5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.

1 jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoeversinneth hath not seen Him, neither known him.

1 jn 3:7 Little children, let no man decieve you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

romans 4:5.. how to become righteous

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

2 cor 11:13-15



1 jn 3:8 He that commiteth sin of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

romans 7:20

1 jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God the Father does not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin because he is born of God.

commit = practice = pattern of whole life not a season

1 cor 11:30-32
heb 12:5--15

1 jn 4:10



1 jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

children of the devil ... eph 2:2-3
righteousness .... romans 4:2-8

Is Ben Johnson Ignoring me on the scripture he requested ....

No, he's "burning six candles" at the same time. Too many irons in the fire, too many horses to corral, too many doggies to rope. Sorry to be slow...

I've got my bottle of tomato sauce, I'll try to ketchup this weekend...

that may be so... but how many time have to tried to change the topic this week ... Ben

too busy or not wanting to take the topic on?

in a gentleman discussion .... that means he gave up?

weekend almost over.... when some one says they will respond ... and continuelly does not do this .. they are a ????

 

[Ben johnson]

Being we believers still have the "old sin nature" within us, therefore, it is very possible for us to be unfaithful, and grieve the Holy Slpirit.

I agree --- yet, the question is: "if we DO become unfaithful, and DO grieve the Spirit, are we still saved?

Salvation is "by grace through faith". If we can become unfaithful, how can we be "unfaithfully-saved"?

Once one places their FAITH in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection) of Christ for their salvation, that one is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise until the day of redemption (Eph. 1:13).

Huh-uh; Eph4:30 says "un-TO", not "un-TIL". And 1:13 says "sealed after belief". Look at the dynamic in Heb10:29 --- there is a man who once was sanctified; but now he tramples the Son, scorns the Blood and insults the Spirit. "Insults" is "grieves"; and "was sanctified", cannot be separate from "was sealed".

Neither satan, nor I, have enough power to break that seal.

Where is the Scriptural basis? In Rom11:21-23, unbelief certainly separates us from the Vine. May we discuss Heb3:6-14?

Paul, in 1 Cor. 9:25-27 is equating our Christian walk (run), with that of an athletic event. We as believers must run our "walK" as one in a foot race. We must run to seek the hightest reward at the end.

Can you or I ignore that the prize, is "an immortal wreath"? Further, he places "IN CHRIST", as forfeitable.

At the Judgment Seat of Christ, each believer will received the rewards for their works. Those who'sworks that do not survive the "trial by fire" will still be saved, as by the skin of their teeth.

Gotta be much more than just "Heavenly Crowns". Imperishable-wreath, means immortality. And "in Christ unless fail-the-test", conveys unsalvation.

I personally do not believe that Paul, in his example of an athletic event, is speaking of loss of salvation, but the loss of rewards at the end of the race, i. e. Judgment Seat of Christ.

OK, two things --- secondly, Paul clearly says "They race for a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. There's no way to "disconnect" 2Cor13:5, where "adokimos" exists to indicate "Christ-not-in-you".

Now --- firstly --- please tell me exactly what a person DOES, to "lose rewards"?

Faithlessness?
Practice-sin?

What is it?

If it's faithlessness/sinfulness, then there is a "faithless/SINFUL salvation"?

May we discuss exactly WHAT it is that "loses rewards, but does not lose salvation"?

Unfaithfulness is definately possible. However, once one is "in Christ" there is no way that satan, or anyone else can break the seal. Yes, I can sin, and lose fellowship, and grieve the Holy Spirit, but I will still be saved, "as by the skin of my teeth."

Please consider these two passages:

"What we have seen and heard and proclaimed, we proclaim also to you, that you may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ. ...if we say we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, ...the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness." 1Jn1:3, 6-7

Jesus: "Father, eternal life is knowing You, and the One You Sent." John17:3

This is the most foundational aspect of Christianity; it's the meaning of the Cross and the empty tomb --- it's the reason the veil, tore. Salvation is fellowship between God and man, between Creator and creature. It's an indwelt fellowship of love.

Indwelt --- if we dwell in sin, Jesus does not indwell us.

Don't believe that Paul is worrying about Timothy's salvation, but that continuing in his teaching/preaching is beneficial to his and all his listeners salvation.

I do --- Paul said, and meant: "You will SAVE YOURSELF...."

I find it very difficult to read 2 Pet. 2:5-10 into the Pauline Epistles. Peter and Paul are writing to two different groups of believers. Peter is writing to those Jewish believers that were saved under the dispensation of the Law and "the gospel of the kingdom." They are the Jews of the dispersion. They are the ones that James, Cephas (Peter) and John, agreeed to stay with in Gal. 2:9. Paul is writing to members of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, were are saved under the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began. That gospel we know as "the gospel of the Grace of God."

Peter didn't hold to "salvation by grace"? He knew about the new covenant.

Well, I gave you my views.

Thank you for that; let's see if we can come to agreement on at least one point.

Salvation is an "indwelt fellowship of love" --- we are indwelt by the Savior Jesus, and by the Holy Spirit.

There is no salvation that exists apart from fellowship.

Romans6 states that we EITHER are enslaved to Christ, OR enslaved to sin; there is NO difference between a person who tries to be "saved" without intimate indwelt fellowship with God, and the "goats" that Jesus will separate out when He returns.

The "sheep", have Christ; the "goats", do not. "Having-Christ", is "fellowship".

It's not WHAT we know that saves us, but WHO we know, and Who knows us.