Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

[Ben johnson]

Implies an ongoing decision as faith is the ultimate action word.

I honestly don't see how anyone can read scriptures such as this and come to any sort of OSAS conclusion. OSAS could only conceivably be considered viable if one were to qualify it with a condition that a person (whom only God knows) has worked out their faith by daily picking up their cross and following Christ and then dying in such a state. It just doesn't make sense to go around claiming to be saved. If one is in the saving ark of the Church, they are still in the water and haven't made port yet.

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. Matthew 10:22

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Mark 13:13

This may of been said already, but when one is saved he gets his name recorded in the book of life right?
I mean can one get his name in the book of life without being saved?

'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

This suggests that one can be saved, but gets his name erased, so OSAS cant be true.

Excellent posts.

 

[Catholic Christian]

...The only thing I might add, is a thought about "assurance".

In 1Jn5:11-13, we are told that "we can KNOW we (who HAVE Jesus), have eternal life".

So I would mildly disagree with the statement, "we cannot be infallibly sure of our salvation".....

Well, remember, I did say: "..The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation...".

I believe though that a "moral" assurance is different from an "absolute" assurance. A Moral assurance means that we know God will keep His promises as long as we do our part. But an absolute assurance we cannot have, since we know not what the future will bring. Many people turn away from God every day, so the people that told them they were "saved" were wrong (just as an example).

 

[Ormly]

Come on, Big O: Did I say that?

Words do mean something, don't they?

You said Adam and Eve were sinless and fell from Grace. The implication was there was no forgiveness for them.

Was there forgiveness for them? Did they really fall from grace? Was it even Grace they fell from?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

where the Jews that cross the red sea believers .... or are they the ones who worshipped idles ..... what does God say? let go to the chapter of faith Heb 11:27-29... they just did not get to recieve there reward do to unfaithfulness in there daily life thus God waited for physical death not spiritual ... which would be consisant of 1 cor 3:12-15

eph 5:1 Be therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Matt 18:3-6 children do not make it complicated

eph 5: 2 and walk in love, as Christ also loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour.

love is a fruit from the spirit ... Gal 5:22-26 if not walking in the spirit they are focusing their minds on things of the earth thus becoming carnal ... thus gal 5:26 vain glory, provoking and envying other believers

Christ examples of love prior to the new comandment in John 13:34-35 is in John 13:13-15 washing the feet of the servants the more mature [master/Lord] seeing a need [dirty feet] and loving them without cost to hisself. conects to 1 jn 3:16-18

Sacrifice goes to Romans 12:1-2 to present a living sacrifice

eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be named among you, as becometh saints;

why are saints told this it is possible for them to walk in the flesh
2 peter 1:4 Given the greatest and best promises so that they might be parataker in the divine nature

eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving thanks.

these believers were having a problem of giving thanks in all things .. 1 thes 5:16-18 so they joked about it

eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

unclean person is one that has not been cover by the blood of Christ ... by the washing of the Holy Spirit

King David did several of these things but before He did God promised He would be the King during the 1000 yr reign ... Thus showing that GOD in his all knowingness knew that he would murder and covet his neigbor wife then committing adultry thus making him unclean .... That God would cover his sins already... Romans 4:5-8

eph 5:6 Let no man decieve you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the son's of disobedience.

Two camps ... 1 jn 3:10 children of God and the children of satan

1 cor 11:30-32, 1 thes 5:10, 1 thes 1:10

disobedience is the belief that Jesus died for there sins was buried three days and arose from the dead in a new body is God ... adding to this or subtracting to this gospel they are children of disobedience

eph 5:7 Be not therefore parataker with them.

possible for wheat and tares to intermingle ... matt 13:25,38

we are to be good by giving the hope in us... but this does not always happen

2 cor 3:18

eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

this is about consistanty.. in your walk other wise they would not need to be reminded .... this is about God's desireous will not determintive will

eph 5:11 and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather reprove them.

there problem is they they were loving the world and fellowshipping with them..... in stead of fellowshipping with other believers

eph 5:14 Wherefore He saith Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine thru you.

telling the believers who were sinning to remind themselves who they are in Christ ... paid for by the blood 1 cor 6:19-20 once and for all heb 10:14-18

Christ is already sealed this sinner who believed ...eph 1:13, rev 3:5, eph 4:30

count what is true romans 6:11-13 so that God can be shown forth out of the dirt of man God character can be shown forth

......1 of 3

1 cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God? Be not decieve: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulters, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 cor 6:11 and such were some of you [ARE RIGHT NOW] . but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, But ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our Lord.

This connects to romans 4:5

all this is God's work ... do all christian live up to God's standards no.... but God is mercyiful and graceous

1john 3:2 Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.

1 jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

1 jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


1 jn 3:3 and every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself even as He is pure.

the hope of the rapture has a purifing affect... if looking to one's promises

1 jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

romans 4:15-16.... law is to unbelievers used to show they need a saviour... 1 tim 1:9.. ungodly Jude 15.... Yet to those ungodly that Believe that Jesus is God and died for their sins they are called righteous... romans 4:5

1 jn 3:5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.

1 jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoeversinneth hath not seen Him, neither known him.

1 jn 3:7 Little children, let no man decieve you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

romans 4:5.. how to become righteous

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

2 cor 11:13-15



1 jn 3:8 He that commiteth sin of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

romans 7:20

1 jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God the Father does not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin because he is born of God.

commit = practice = pattern of whole life not a season

1 cor 11:30-32
heb 12:5--15

1 jn 4:10



1 jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

children of the devil ... eph 2:2-3
righteousness .... romans 4:2-8

waiting... ben

do all this explaining for you ... yet you ignore it...

 

[nobdysfool]

Bro, Ben won't answer, because you have him pinned.

 

[Ben johnson]

Bro, Ben won't answer, because you have him pinned.

What does this mean? ABIC is asserting a kind of "Antinomianism", that men can be actively fornicating/drunk/carousing, but still saved.

He has some verses that he thinks overturn passages like 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, and 1Jn3:5-10. If you agree that "he has me pinned", then you agree that someone can be actively practicing sin, but still saved.

I don't think you agree with that.

waiting... ben

do all this explaining for you ... yet you ignore it...

I think we're not making progress. Perhaps we can discuss Romans6 --- beginning with verse 1.

"Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Never! How shall we who have DIED to sin, still live IN it?" Then he continues discussing how we are slaves --- either to sin, or to righteousness and God.

Let's discuss how you perceive a "middle-ground", slaves to sin but still saved.

What is the difference between someone who walks in sin (slaves to sin) but is saved, and someone who walks in sin but is NOT saved. I expect you to say "the saved one, believes." Yet --- James says, in 2:17, "Faith, if it produces no good works, is dead, being by itself." This follows verse 14, "That faith (that does not even help a brother/sister in need", can NOT save you, CAN it!"

(The "me-dunamai" construct in verse 14, is a statement; a "negative question that expects ONLY an answer of 'no'.")

Aligning this with what Jesus said in Matt7:17-20, we will be known by our fruits; either good fruits, or bad. Can you explain how "bad-fruited-people", can still be considered "saved"?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

where the Jews that cross the red sea believers .... or are they the ones who worshipped idles ..... what does God say? let go to the chapter of faith Heb 11:27-29... they just did not get to recieve there reward do to unfaithfulness in there daily life thus God waited for physical death not spiritual ... which would be consisant of 1 cor 3:12-15

eph 5:1 Be therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Matt 18:3-6 children do not make it complicated

eph 5: 2 and walk in love, as Christ also loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour.

love is a fruit from the spirit ... Gal 5:22-26 if not walking in the spirit they are focusing their minds on things of the earth thus becoming carnal ... thus gal 5:26 vain glory, provoking and envying other believers

Christ examples of love prior to the new comandment in John 13:34-35 is in John 13:13-15 washing the feet of the servants the more mature [master/Lord] seeing a need [dirty feet] and loving them without cost to hisself. conects to 1 jn 3:16-18

Sacrifice goes to Romans 12:1-2 to present a living sacrifice

eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be named among you, as becometh saints;

why are saints told this it is possible for them to walk in the flesh
2 peter 1:4 Given the greatest and best promises so that they might be parataker in the divine nature

eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving thanks.

these believers were having a problem of giving thanks in all things .. 1 thes 5:16-18 so they joked about it

eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

unclean person is one that has not been cover by the blood of Christ ... by the washing of the Holy Spirit

King David did several of these things but before He did God promised He would be the King during the 1000 yr reign ... Thus showing that GOD in his all knowingness knew that he would murder and covet his neigbor wife then committing adultry thus making him unclean .... That God would cover his sins already... Romans 4:5-8

eph 5:6 Let no man decieve you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the son's of disobedience.

Two camps ... 1 jn 3:10 children of God and the children of satan

1 cor 11:30-32, 1 thes 5:10, 1 thes 1:10

disobedience is the belief that Jesus died for there sins was buried three days and arose from the dead in a new body is God ... adding to this or subtracting to this gospel they are children of disobedience

eph 5:7 Be not therefore parataker with them.

possible for wheat and tares to intermingle ... matt 13:25,38

we are to be good by giving the hope in us... but this does not always happen

2 cor 3:18

eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

this is about consistanty.. in your walk other wise they would not need to be reminded .... this is about God's desireous will not determintive will

eph 5:11 and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather reprove them.

there problem is they they were loving the world and fellowshipping with them..... in stead of fellowshipping with other believers

eph 5:14 Wherefore He saith Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine thru you.

telling the believers who were sinning to remind themselves who they are in Christ ... paid for by the blood 1 cor 6:19-20 once and for all heb 10:14-18

Christ is already sealed this sinner who believed ...eph 1:13, rev 3:5, eph 4:30

count what is true romans 6:11-13 so that God can be shown forth out of the dirt of man God character can be shown forth

......1 of 3



1 cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God? Be not decieve: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulters, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 cor 6:11 and such were some of you [ARE RIGHT NOW] . but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, But ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our Lord.

This connects to romans 4:5

all this is God's work ... do all christian live up to God's standards no.... but God is mercyiful and graceous

1john 3:2 Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.

1 jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

1 jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


1 jn 3:3 and every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself even as He is pure.

the hope of the rapture has a purifing affect... if looking to one's promises

1 jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

romans 4:15-16.... law is to unbelievers used to show they need a saviour... 1 tim 1:9.. ungodly Jude 15.... Yet to those ungodly that Believe that Jesus is God and died for their sins they are called righteous... romans 4:5

1 jn 3:5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.

1 jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoeversinneth hath not seen Him, neither known him.

1 jn 3:7 Little children, let no man decieve you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

romans 4:5.. how to become righteous

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

2 cor 11:13-15



1 jn 3:8 He that commiteth sin of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

romans 7:20

1 jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God the Father does not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin because he is born of God.

commit = practice = pattern of whole life not a season

1 cor 11:30-32
heb 12:5--15

1 jn 4:10



1 jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

children of the devil ... eph 2:2-3
righteousness .... romans 4:2-8

What does this mean? ABIC is asserting a kind of "Antinomianism", that men can be actively fornicating/drunk/carousing, but still saved.

He has some verses that he thinks overturn passages like 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, and 1Jn3:5-10. If you agree that "he has me pinned", then you agree that someone can be actively practicing sin, but still saved.

I don't think you agree with that.
I think we're not making progress. Perhaps we can discuss Romans6 --- beginning with verse 1.

"Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Never! How shall we who have DIED to sin, still live IN it?" Then he continues discussing how we are slaves --- either to sin, or to righteousness and God.

Let's discuss how you perceive a "middle-ground", slaves to sin but still saved.

What is the difference between someone who walks in sin (slaves to sin) but is saved, and someone who walks in sin but is NOT saved. I expect you to say "the saved one, believes." Yet --- James says, in 2:17, "Faith, if it produces no good works, is dead, being by itself." This follows verse 14, "That faith (that does not even help a brother/sister in need", can NOT save you, CAN it!"

(The "me-dunamai" construct in verse 14, is a statement; a "negative question that expects ONLY an answer of 'no'.")

Aligning this with what Jesus said in Matt7:17-20, we will be known by our fruits; either good fruits, or bad. Can you explain how "bad-fruited-people", can still be considered "saved"?

to be free from sin a christian must practice truth

Jn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth will make you free.

Jn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committed sin is the servant of sin.

3 jn 3 For I rejoice greatly, when the brethren came and testified of the truth that is in thee, even as thou walkest in the truth. 4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

connect this to

gal 5:25 Since we live in the Spirit, let us walk in the spirit.

26 let us not be desireous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. ..... sin



Romans 6.... the key verse for counting ones self dead!.... yet alive to christ 1 cor 7:20-24

romans 7: 14-24 sin is inside of me still... I desire not to do but I still do sin ... learning about how to use the truth

Romans 8:1 There is therefore no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.... positional truth

sin does not condemn them... 1 jn 3:2-3

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I think we're not making progress. Perhaps we can discuss Romans6 --- beginning with verse 1.

"Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Never! How shall we who have DIED to sin, still live IN it?" Then he continues discussing how we are slaves --- either to sin, or to righteousness and God.

Let's discuss how you perceive a "middle-ground", slaves to sin but still saved.

What is the difference between someone who walks in sin (slaves to sin) but is saved, and someone who walks in sin but is NOT saved. I expect you to say "the saved one, believes." Yet --- James says, in 2:17, "Faith, if it produces no good works, is dead, being by itself." This follows verse 14, "That faith (that does not even help a brother/sister in need", can NOT save you, CAN it!"

(The "me-dunamai" construct in verse 14, is a statement; a "negative question that expects ONLY an answer of 'no'.")

Aligning this with what Jesus said in Matt7:17-20, we will be known by our fruits; either good fruits, or bad. Can you explain how "bad-fruited-people", can still be considered "saved"?

please read context .....

I did what you asked .... and know you do not deal with these verses .......

there are years fruit trees will not produce fruit do to stress on the tree.... but the tree will be taken care of by the Ochardist and grow fruit ...

God does not need to see what operates in one mind...

example who watch Abraham ... in James 2:21, Heb 11:17-19

What was Rahab the Harlots work .. James 2:25

God put verse James 2:25 for you ben

 

[Ormly]

please read context .....

I did what you asked .... and know you do not deal with these verses .......

there are years fruit trees will not produce fruit do to stress on the tree.... but the tree will be taken care of by the Ochardist and grow fruit ...

God does not need to see what operates in one mind...

example who watch Abraham ... in James 2:21, Heb 11:17-19

What was Rahab the Harlots work .. James 2:25

God put verse James 2:25 for you ben

Are you implying Rahab didn't have faith?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

please read context .....

I did what you asked .... and know you do not deal with these verses .......

there are years fruit trees will not produce fruit do to stress on the tree.... but the tree will be taken care of by the Ochardist and grow fruit ...

God does not need to see what operates in one mind...

example who watch Abraham ... in James 2:21, Heb 11:17-19

What was Rahab the Harlots work .. James 2:25

God put verse James 2:25 for you ben

Are you implying Rahab didn't have faith?

Rahab the Harlot had faith ...... but her work was a harlot

 

[yashualover]

Rahab the Harlot had faith ...... but her work was a harlot

Heb 11:31
The harlot Rahab perished not - See this account Jos_2:1, Jos_2:9, Jos_2:11, and Jos_6:23, where it is rendered exceedingly probable that the word זונהzonah in Hebrew, and πορνη in Greek, which we translate harlot, should be rendered innkeeper or tavernkeeper, as there is no proper evidence that the person in question was such a woman as our translation represents her. As to her having been a harlot before and converted afterwards, it is a figment of an idle fancy. She was afterwards married to Salmon, a Jewish prince; see Mat_1:5. And it is extremely incredible that, had she been what we represent her, he would have sought for such an alliance.
Received the spies with peace - Μετ’ ειρηνης· The same as בשלוםbeshalom, giving them a kind welcome, good fare, and protection. After these words the Slavonic adds: Και ἑτερᾳ ὁδῳ εκβαλουσα, and sent them out another way.

Clark Commentary on Hebrews 11:20-31

 

[yashualover]

Yes, absolutely!

Here is just a few scriptures for proof.

Most free willies deny eternal security, logically it follows since they are attempting to Merritt God's favor by their own strength.


Joh 17:6 I have made your name known to the men you gave me from the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.
Joh 17:7 Now they realize that everything you gave me comes from you,
Joh 17:8 because the words that you gave me I have given to them. They have received them and know for sure that I came from you. And they have believed that you sent me.
Joh 17:9 I am asking on their behalf. I am not asking on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those you gave me, for they are yours.
Joh 17:10 All that is mine is yours, and what is yours is mine, and I have been glorified in them.
Joh 17:11 I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by your name, the name that you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them by your name that you gave me. I guarded them, and not one of them became lost except the one who was destined for destruction, so that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Joh 17:13 "And now I am coming to you, and I say these things in the world so that they may have my joy completed in themselves.
Joh 17:14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them, for they do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world.
Joh 17:15 I am not asking you to take them out of the world but to protect them from the evil one.
Joh 17:16 They do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth. Your word is truth.
Joh 17:18 Just as you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19 It is for their sakes that I sanctify myself, so that they, too, may be sanctified by the truth.
Joh 17:20 "I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their message,
Joh 17:21 that they may all be one. Just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, so that the world may believe that you sent me.
Joh 17:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, so that they may be one, just as we are one.
Joh 17:23 I am in them, and you are in me. May they be completely one, so that the world may know that you sent me and that you have loved them as you loved me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am and to see my glory, which you gave me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
Joh 17:25 "Righteous Father, the world has never known you. Yet I have known you, and these men have known that you sent me.
Joh 17:26 I made your name known to them, and will continue to make it known, so that the love you have for me may be in them and I myself may be in them."

 

[yashualover]

Fine.

Phi 2:12 KJV Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Jam 5:19 KJV Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jam 5:20 KJV Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Heb 6:4 KJV For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 KJV And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 KJV If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Also, see this article:

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0203sbs.asp

MHCC

Heb 6:1-8
Every part of the truth and will of God should be set before all who profess the gospel, and be urged on their hearts and consciences. We should not be always speaking about outward things; these have their places and use, but often take up too much attention and time, which might be better employed. The humbled sinner who pleads guilty, and cries for mercy, can have no ground from this passage to be discouraged, whatever his conscience may accuse him of. Nor does it prove that any one who is made a new creature in Christ, ever becomes a final apostate from him. The apostle is not speaking of the falling away of mere professors, never convinced or influenced by the gospel. Such have nothing to fall away from, but an empty name, or hypocritical profession. Neither is he speaking of partial declinings or backslidings. Nor are such sins meant, as Christians fall into through the strength of temptations, or the power of some worldly or fleshly lust. But the falling away here mentioned, is an open and avowed renouncing of Christ, from enmity of heart against him, his cause, and people, by men approving in their minds the deeds of his murderers, and all this after they have received the knowledge of the truth, and tasted some of its comforts. Of these it is said, that it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance. Not because the blood of Christ is not sufficient to obtain pardon for this sin; but this sin, in its very nature, is opposite to repentance and every thing that leads to it. If those who through mistaken views of this passage, as well as of their own case, fear that there is no mercy for them, would attend to the account given of the nature of this sin, that it is a total and a willing renouncing of Christ, and his cause, and joining with his enemies, it would relieve them from wrong fears. We should ourselves beware, and caution others, of every approach near to a gulf so awful as apostacy; yet in doing this we should keep close to the word of God, and be careful not to wound and terrify the weak, or discourage the fallen and penitent. Believers not only taste of the word of God, but they drink it in. And this fruitful field or garden receives the blessing. But the merely nominal Christian, continuing unfruitful under the means of grace, or producing nothing but deceit and selfishness, was near the awful state above described; and everlasting misery was the end reserved for him. Let us watch with humble caution and prayer as to ourselves.

 

[yashualover]

I take communion. I just don't crucify Him. He's not on the cross anymore. Please take Him down from there. He is risen.

I was raised Catholic.

Amen!

I also was raised Rc, amazing grace, was blind but now I see.

 

[yashualover]

One sec...

Para 1378 Worship of the Eucharist. In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. "The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated hosts with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession.

Para 1380 …The Church and the world have a great need for Eucharistic worship…

Para 1379 …the Church became conscious of the meaning of silent adoration of the Lord present under the Eucharistic species. It is for this reason that the tabernacle should be located in an especially worthy place in the church and should be constructed in such a way that it emphasizes and manifests the truth of the real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament.

The Bible Says

Deuteronomy 4:13, 15-16 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even Ten Commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake...Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure…

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

John 4:23-24 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The Scripture clearly identifies that God is Holy and He alone is worthy of our worship. “Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee…” Revelation 15:4

The Catechism’s physically literal interpretation of Scripture leads to idolatry. According to the Bible, we must not give worship to any false god or idol, meaning anything man-made (as an image) to represent God. In the Old Testament, Aaron fell into this same grave error of idolatry, “…when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, up, make us gods, which shall go before us…” Aaron made the golden calf as a medium through which the Israelites were to worship God. "These be thy gods, O Israel...” he states. As physically literal as Aaron and the people of Israel were, they did not imagine that this image was itself a god. Rather, they made the image a representation of the true God, whom they intended to worship in and through the image. This is idolatry. It is the same mistake the Church of Rome makes at every Mass.​

The true worship of God ought to be in spirit and truth, as the Lord proclaimed, “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” This worship brings true peace and true Christian living. Worship of the Eucharist brings about the wrath of God as promised in His Word. God looks upon those who practice idolatry as haters of Him, though they pretend to love Him. He will judge their iniquity. We are told that God is One, “…who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments” (Ex. 34:7b).
We remember the simple Word of the Lord in Mark 13:21, “if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not.” To command worship of the Eucharist is idolatry and idolatry is spiritual adultery. Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry 1Co 10:14.​

Great answer.

 

[yashualover]

Well, remember, I did say: "..The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation...".

I believe though that a "moral" assurance is different from an "absolute" assurance. A Moral assurance means that we know God will keep His promises as long as we do our part. But an absolute assurance we cannot have, since we know not what the future will bring. Many people turn away from God every day, so the people that told them they were "saved" were wrong (just as an example).

Rom 10:2 For I can testify on their behalf that they have a zeal for God, but it is not in keeping with full knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they are ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God while they try to establish their own, and they have not submitted to God's righteousness.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Heb 11:31
The harlot Rahab perished not - See this account Jos_2:1, Jos_2:9, Jos_2:11, and Jos_6:23, where it is rendered exceedingly probable that the word זונהzonah in Hebrew, and πορνη in Greek, which we translate harlot, should be rendered innkeeper or tavernkeeper, as there is no proper evidence that the person in question was such a woman as our translation represents her. As to her having been a harlot before and converted afterwards, it is a figment of an idle fancy. She was afterwards married to Salmon, a Jewish prince; see Mat_1:5. And it is extremely incredible that, had she been what we represent her, he would have sought for such an alliance.
Received the spies with peace - Μετ’ ειρηνης· The same as בשלוםbeshalom, giving them a kind welcome, good fare, and protection. After these words the Slavonic adds: Και ἑτερᾳ ὁδῳ εκβαλουσα, and sent them out another way.

Clark Commentary on Hebrews 11:20-31

how does a harlot work where you live .... in Hotels and motels exactly .....

God did not point to life after but life right when her faith matured

 

[Ben johnson]

please read context .....

there are years fruit trees will not produce fruit due to stress on the tree.... but the tree will be taken care of by the Ochardist and grow fruit ...

Jesus' allegory speaks of "producing good fruit, and producing bad fruit" --- no good tree (saved), produces bad fruit (sinful living).

God does not need to see what operates in one's mind...

example who watch Abraham ... in James 2:21, Heb 11:17-19

Those passages oppose what you've been saying --- "faith, is accompanied by works (good deeds)".

I did what you asked .... and now you do not deal with these verses .......

No, not exactly --- let's visit what you said about one passage, Eph5;5-6.

eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be named among you, as becometh saints;

why are saints told this it is possible for them to walk in the flesh

Because if they DO, they will no longer be "saints".

2 peter 1:4 Given the greatest and best promises so that they might be parataker in the divine nature

Now, please read verses 5-10. Verse 5 is often mis-translated, "Add to your faith" --- that is not what he wrote. It says, "SUPPLY IN your faith" (and then lists godly qualities). These qualities are not optional --- for he says "He who LACKS these qualities is blind/short-sighted, having FORGOTTEN former purification of sins". The clearly stated principle, is that we are admonished to be diligent in regard to our calling and election, that we not be "stumbled/become-wretched", that the gates of Heaven BE provided to us."

eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

unclean person is one that has not been cover by the blood of Christ ... by the washing of the Holy Spirit

Come now, ABIC --- it lists specific traits that conflict "saved". Same as 1Cor6:9-11, and Gal5:19-21. You have not explained how people who have the listed crimes, get exempt from the clearly stated words of "SHALL NOT INHERIT".

King David did several of these things but before He did God promised He would be the King during the 1000 yr reign ... Thus showing that GOD in his all knowingness knew that he would murder and covet his neigbor wife then committing adultry thus making him unclean .... That God would cover his sins already... Romans 4:5-8

David repented. Do you accept that "repent", means "turn from practicing sin"?

eph 5:6 Let no man decieve you with vain words: forbecause of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the son's of disobedience.

Two camps ... 1 jn 3:10 children of God and the children of satan

That's exactly the point, A_Brother. Those who practice righteousness, belong to God --- "faith", is inseparable from "righteous".

And those who practice sin, belong to satan; "unrighteousness", is inseparable from "unbelief".

 

[A Brother In Christ]

still waiting for a responce Ben

please do not be rude

where the Jews that cross the red sea believers .... or are they the ones who worshipped idles ..... what does God say? let go to the chapter of faith Heb 11:27-29... they just did not get to recieve there reward do to unfaithfulness in there daily life thus God waited for physical death not spiritual ... which would be consisant of 1 cor 3:12-15

eph 5:1 Be therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Matt 18:3-6 children do not make it complicated

eph 5: 2 and walk in love, as Christ also loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour.

love is a fruit from the spirit ... Gal 5:22-26 if not walking in the spirit they are focusing their minds on things of the earth thus becoming carnal ... thus gal 5:26 vain glory, provoking and envying other believers

Christ examples of love prior to the new comandment in John 13:34-35 is in John 13:13-15 washing the feet of the servants the more mature [master/Lord] seeing a need [dirty feet] and loving them without cost to hisself. conects to 1 jn 3:16-18

Sacrifice goes to Romans 12:1-2 to present a living sacrifice

eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be named among you, as becometh saints;

why are saints told this it is possible for them to walk in the flesh
2 peter 1:4 Given the greatest and best promises so that they might be parataker in the divine nature

eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving thanks.

these believers were having a problem of giving thanks in all things .. 1 thes 5:16-18 so they joked about it

eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

unclean person is one that has not been cover by the blood of Christ ... by the washing of the Holy Spirit

King David did several of these things but before He did God promised He would be the King during the 1000 yr reign ... Thus showing that GOD in his all knowingness knew that he would murder and covet his neigbor wife then committing adultry thus making him unclean .... That God would cover his sins already... Romans 4:5-8

eph 5:6 Let no man decieve you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the son's of disobedience.

Two camps ... 1 jn 3:10 children of God and the children of satan

1 cor 11:30-32, 1 thes 5:10, 1 thes 1:10

disobedience is the belief that Jesus died for there sins was buried three days and arose from the dead in a new body is God ... adding to this or subtracting to this gospel they are children of disobedience

eph 5:7 Be not therefore parataker with them.

possible for wheat and tares to intermingle ... matt 13:25,38

we are to be good by giving the hope in us... but this does not always happen

2 cor 3:18

eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

this is about consistanty.. in your walk other wise they would not need to be reminded .... this is about God's desireous will not determintive will

eph 5:11 and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather reprove them.

there problem is they they were loving the world and fellowshipping with them..... in stead of fellowshipping with other believers

eph 5:14 Wherefore He saith Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine thru you.

telling the believers who were sinning to remind themselves who they are in Christ ... paid for by the blood 1 cor 6:19-20 once and for all heb 10:14-18

Christ is already sealed this sinner who believed ...eph 1:13, rev 3:5, eph 4:30

count what is true romans 6:11-13 so that God can be shown forth out of the dirt of man God character can be shown forth

......1 of 3



1 cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God? Be not decieve: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulters, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 cor 6:11 and such were some of you [ARE RIGHT NOW] . but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, But ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our Lord.

This connects to romans 4:5

all this is God's work ... do all christian live up to God's standards no.... but God is mercyiful and graceous

1john 3:2 Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.

1 jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

1 jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


1 jn 3:3 and every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself even as He is pure.

the hope of the rapture has a purifing affect... if looking to one's promises

1 jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

romans 4:15-16.... law is to unbelievers used to show they need a saviour... 1 tim 1:9.. ungodly Jude 15.... Yet to those ungodly that Believe that Jesus is God and died for their sins they are called righteous... romans 4:5

1 jn 3:5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.

1 jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoeversinneth hath not seen Him, neither known him.

1 jn 3:7 Little children, let no man decieve you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

romans 4:5.. how to become righteous

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

2 cor 11:13-15



1 jn 3:8 He that commiteth sin of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

romans 7:20

1 jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God the Father does not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin because he is born of God.

commit = practice = pattern of whole life not a season

1 cor 11:30-32
heb 12:5--15

1 jn 4:10



1 jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

children of the devil ... eph 2:2-3
righteousness .... romans 4:2-8


to be free from sin a christian must practice truth

Jn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth will make you free.

Jn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committed sin is the servant of sin.

3 jn 3 For I rejoice greatly, when the brethren came and testified of the truth that is in thee, even as thou walkest in the truth. 4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

connect this to

gal 5:25 Since we live in the Spirit, let us walk in the spirit.

26 let us not be desireous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. ..... sin



Romans 6.... the key verse for counting ones self dead!.... yet alive to christ 1 cor 7:20-24

romans 7: 14-24 sin is inside of me still... I desire not to do but I still do sin ... learning about how to use the truth

Romans 8:1 There is therefore no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.... positional truth

sin does not condemn them... 1 jn 3:2-3

please read context .....

I did what you asked .... and know you do not deal with these verses .......

there are years fruit trees will not produce fruit do to stress on the tree.... but the tree will be taken care of by the Ochardist and grow fruit ...

God does not need to see what operates in one mind...

example who watch Abraham ... in James 2:21, Heb 11:17-19

What was Rahab the Harlots work .. James 2:25

God put verse James 2:25 for you ben

Jesus' allegory speaks of "producing good fruit, and producing bad fruit" --- no good tree (saved), produces bad fruit (sinful living).

Name a Tree that produces bad fruit... I like fruit .... they can go barron ... but the tree can not produce BAD FRUIT

Those passages oppose what you've been saying --- "faith, is accompanied by works (good deeds)".
No, not exactly --- let's visit what you said about one passage, Eph5;5-6.

quotes me and respond please

Because if they DO, they will no longer be "saints".

Once again quote me with the scripture that I wrote and respond please

Now, please read verses 5-10. Verse 5 is often mis-translated, "Add to your faith" --- that is not what he wrote. It says, "SUPPLY IN your faith" (and then lists godly qualities). These qualities are not optional --- for he says "He who LACKS these qualities is blind/short-sighted, having FORGOTTEN former purification of sins".

1 john 1:8-10 ... wow it happens ... But God paid for all sin ... Heb 10:12-18 do you believe Him and his word... Blessed is the man who sins and God counts righteous... romans 4:8

The clearly stated principle, is that we are admonished to be diligent in regard to our calling and election, that we not be "stumbled/become-wretched", that the gates of Heaven BE provided to us."
Come now, ABIC --- it lists specific traits that conflict "saved". Same as 1Cor6:9-11, and Gal5:19-21. You have not explained how people who have the listed crimes, get exempt from the clearly stated words of "SHALL NOT INHERIT".

why do you personally attack me of not responding when it is you who has not responded

David repented. Do you accept that "repent", means "turn from practicing sin"?
That's exactly the point, A_Brother. Those who practice righteousness, belong to God --- "faith", is inseparable from "righteous".

And those who practice sin, belong to satan; "unrighteousness", is inseparable from "unbelief".

Giving credit mentally is righteousness ... romans 4:5

not sinning is nowing what God has done for your salvation ..... Everything

......
question are you going to quote me and respond to the verses you requested .....

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

If you agree that "he has me pinned", then you agree that someone can be actively practicing sin, but still saved.

I don't think you agree with that.

I think I agree, to an extent - we all practice sin in one form or another. All of us have our own secrets, our own sins that haunt us and are troublesome. What becomes the crux or the issue is what is meant by "practice".

1Jo 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

The word "sins" or "sinneth" being transliterated "hamartano".

to be without a share in
to miss the mark
to err, be mistaken
to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin

We all do this. Everyone sins. I think what most people do is take the first half of verse 18 and forget the second half -

"but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him."

I found a great commentary on this portion by A. R. Fausset-

We know--Thrice repeated emphatically, to enforce the three truths which the words preface, as matters of the brethren's joint experimental knowledge. This 1Jo 5:18 warns against abusing 1Jo 5:16, 17 , as warranting carnal security.
whosoever--Greek, "every one who." Not only advanced believers, but every one who is born again, "sinneth not."
he that is begotten--Greek aorist, "has been (once for all in past time) begotten of God"; in the beginning of the verse it is perfect. "Is begotten," or "born," as a continuing state.
keepeth himself--The Vulgate translates, "The having been begotten of God keepeth HIM" (so one of the oldest manuscripts reads): so ALFORD. Literally, "He having been begotten of God (nominative pendent), it (the divine generation implied in the nominative) keepeth him." So 1Jo 3:9 , "His seed remaineth in him." Still, in English Version reading, God's working by His Spirit inwardly, and man's working under the power of that Spirit as a responsible agent, is what often occurs elsewhere. That God must keep us, if we are to keep ourselves from evil, is certain. Compare Jhn 17:15 especially with this verse.
that wicked one toucheth him not--so as to hurt him. In so far as he realizes his regeneration-life, the prince of this world hath nothing in him to fasten his deadly temptations on, as in Christ's own case. His divine regeneration has severed once for all his connection with the prince of this world.

Again, his literal reading is - "He having been begotten of God ,it keepeth him."

So this text doesn't say that the one who is practicing sin is not saved - if one is practicing sin, but "God keeps him", then he is saved. One may still sin and be saved. It is the one who sins, and has no regard for God, and does not have God to keep him, who is not saved.

This passage is taken out of context all too much. For a large chunk of my life, I practiced a particular sin day in and day out. But God kept me, and I know I was saved throughout my struggle. And a struggle it was, which proveth my salvation throughout it. The face that God kept me was an assurance that He never left me. Sin no longer has power over the one who is saved -

Col 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

We no longer have a sin debt; it was imputed to Christ and His righteousness has been imputed to us.

Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Godbless