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Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

Do you believe in the doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved?

  • No, I don't believe in the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved.

  • Yes, I do believe in the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved.


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Rick Otto

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I be one.
At 52, it's a little late to be tryin' to insult me, if that was even his intent... can't realy be sure, but it's amusing to think so.
I love when the ladies at the cash register ask for my ID card. I ask 'em if they want my phone number, too.^_^
 
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Ben johnson

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Ormly said:
C'mon Ben, lets properly divide God's word. Jesus isn't speaking of righteous living in the John passage. You should know that.
Men cannot be righteous, without Jesus; if we could, He would not have needed to die on the Cross. Rom8 says what we could not do, because of weak flesh, God did, sending His Son to die for our sin.
Only if you are. Being born again is Him choosing you, not you choosing Him.
Actually, no; it's clear in John1:12-13. Verse 13 is "begottenness", which is "born-again". That's all of God and nothing of men. But verse 12 says "BECOMING begotten is by believing and receiving Christ."
I am afraid many are presumptious in believing they are, especially when they open their mouth and it is revealed.
That's true; as Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits."
You can't reconcile that with scripture if you rightly divide His word. For instance: There is a sin NOT unto death.
The "sin unto death", is that which is not accompanied by repentance. Jesus said, "Unless you REPENT, you WILL PERISH." Lk13:3
Yet we believe all sin is unto death. Likewise, there is righteousness of man that won't ever get him into heaven by and of itself. Some higher righteousness is needed that only God can gift to man for accomplishing that feat. Can you see what I am saying?
Look at those in Matt7:21-23; they thought they were righteous, "prophesying, and casting out demons and do many miracles" --- but Jesus said "you practice wickedness".
 
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Ben johnson

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RickOtto said:
I be one.
At 52, it's a little late to be tryin' to insult me, if that was even his intent... can't realy be sure, but it's amusing to think so.
I love when the ladies at the cash register ask for my ID card. I ask 'em if they want my phone number, too.
Has that ever WORKED???

:D
 
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Ormly

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Originally Posted by Ormly
C'mon Ben, lets properly divide God's word. Jesus isn't speaking of righteous living in the John passage. You should know that.

Men cannot be righteous, without Jesus; if we could, He would not have needed to die on the Cross. Rom8 says what we could not do, because of weak flesh, God did, sending His Son to die for our sin.


You are not paying attention to what is written.
Quote:
Only if you are. Being born again is Him choosing you, not you choosing Him.

Actually, no; it's clear in John1:12-13. Verse 13 is "begottenness", which is "born-again". That's all of God and nothing of men. But verse 12 says "BECOMING begotten is by believing and receiving Christ."

You are reiterating what I stated. And them that believe He GIVES . . . . HE chooses. What does believe mean?

Quote:
I am afraid many are presumptious in believing they are, especially when they open their mouth and it is revealed.

That's true; as Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits."
Quote:
You can't reconcile that with scripture if you rightly divide His word. For instance: There is a sin NOT unto death.

The "sin unto death", is that which is not accompanied by repentance. Jesus said, "Unless you REPENT, you WILL PERISH." Lk13:3

You aren’t paying attention, again. You are missing the point and going off on a tangent.

Quote:
Yet we believe all sin is unto death. Likewise, there is righteousness of man that won't ever get him into heaven by and of itself. Some higher righteousness is needed that only God can gift to man for accomplishing that feat. Can you see what I am saying?

Look at those in Matt7:21-23; they thought they were righteous, "prophesying, and casting out demons and do many miracles" --- but Jesus said "you practice wickedness".

Pay ATTENTION!!! Was Job one of those you are referring to?? How about Simeon and Anna, Joseph and Mary? How about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Shall I go on???
 
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A Brother In Christ

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"A_Brother", there is no "ungodly believer". Salvation is Christ in us --- if He is IN us, then HIS righteousness is OURS; we are righteous, not ungodly.

If we are ungodly, then as Jesus said "we will be known by our fruits" --- and He is NOT in us, for He will not participate in ungodliness.

I've given you the Scripture; how do I convince you of this?

"Saved belief", abides in Him and not in sin. It's black and white; we are EITHER slaves to sin and ALIEN to Christ, or we are slaves to Him and righteousness and do not walk in sin. Rom6 is clear --- please tell me what you think of the whole chapter...

Once again you have to deal with

romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness ..

scripture speak much louder than me arguing

That's true, I cannot. Neither can Paul (Rom6), Jesus (Matt7), Peter (2:1:2-10), and all the others...
Sorry, my friend --- verse 13 says "the BEGOTTENNESS is not of men but of God".

...verse 12 says "BECOMING begotten is by believing and receiving Jesus."
And if we do NOT abide, we are cast away as dried branches and burned... Jn15

1 cor 3:15 If any man's good work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

2 tim 2:13 Since we are unfaithful, Yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny himself.

1 cor 12:21 and the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

eph 1:22 and hath put all things under his feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church 23 which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.



Once again... who work is savaltion?

answer... John 1:13.... God's work


ignoring me again ... ben

Yes there is one's that believe in vain ..
1cor 15:2,10,17

all three vain in english are different words in greek

but it all has to do with thought process... not actions

No, I think it's "your turn". I asked you to comment on 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, and 1Jn3:5-10 --- how is it possible to be actively doing the things listed in these passages, but still expect to stroll through the gates of Heaven?

same way King David gets to be resurrected promised before adultry and murder ... but salvation is God work... john 1:13........... roman 4:8, heb 10:17

1 cor 3:15 If any man's good work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

2 tim 2:13 Since we are unfaithful, Yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny himself.


1 cor 12:21 and the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.


eph 1:22 and hath put all things under his feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church 23 which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.



Once again... who work is savaltion?

answer... John 1:13.... God's work ... HE GIVES GRACE AND FAITH EPH 2:8-9

still waiting


Gal 6:1 believers can be sinning

but still waiting Ben
 
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Rick Otto

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Only when its the guys asking and not the gals!





(duuuuhhoooo - sorry Rick - couldn't resist)
Well, I SAID "ladies"... I would never ask a guy if he wanted my phone number.

Ben, are you tellin' me the ladies card you too, or are you askin' me about my personal life?;)
But realy, I only like to tease (I'm married). But if you're needin' some techniques, you might try puttin' your phone number on a respectably sized tip for a cute waitress. That worked for me the one time I tried it back in my college daze.
 
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Ben johnson

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Ormly said:
Ben said:
Men cannot be righteous, without Jesus; if we could, He would not have needed to die on the Cross. Rom8 says what we could not do, because of weak flesh, God did, sending His Son to die for our sin.
You are not paying attention to what is written.
How so?
You are reiterating what I stated. And them that believe He GIVES . . . . HE chooses.
Which comes first --- God's "choosing", or our "believing"? In John17:6, God gives "those who belong to Him, are given to Jesus". "Belonging", denotes "belief".
What does believe mean?
Simply, to receive Jesus as Savior and Lord (Master!).
You aren’t paying attention, again. You are missing the point and going off on a tangent.
While we have weak flesh, we sin; but we do not walk in sin, but rather abiding in Him we walk in repentance. And compared to the world, we sin rarely, not continually.
Pay ATTENTION!!! Was Job one of those you are referring to?? How about Simeon and Anna, Joseph and Mary? How about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Shall I go on???
Please do --- I'm missing your point. Abraham believed, and it was reckoned to him as rightouesness.

We cannot walk in sin, for if we do, we are not walking in Christ (not saved). We who walk in Him, do not walk in sin.

"If we say that we have fellowship with Him but walk in darkness (sin!), we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all unrighteousness."
 
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Ben johnson

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ABIC said:
romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness ..
It is impossible to be "truly believing" (saved), and "ungodly". Look at the qualities listed in 1Pet1:5-10; he who lacks qualities (including "godliness"), has forgotten former purification, will not receive the gates of Heaven.
same way King David gets to be resurrected promised before adultry and murder
David repented --- we've discussed this.
... but salvation is God work... john 1:13........... roman 4:8, heb 10:17
You would be better quoting John6:29, "It is the work of God that we believe."

...yet, verse 27-28, says "God's work, that WE WORK (that we DO)."
1 cor 3:15 If any man's good work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
In no way does the context of that conflict "cannot be unrighteously-saved".
2 tim 2:13 Since we are unfaithful, Yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny himself.
Please read that verse again (11-13); if WE persevere, then we will reign with Him; but if we deny Him, then He will deny us (and we will NOT reign with Him, we will NOT enter Heaven!).

If we are faithless, A_Brother --- and there is no "faithlessl-saved"...

Have you ever answered Eph5:5-6? Gal5:19-21? 1Cor6:9-11? 1Jn3:5-10?
 
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Ormly

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Please read that verse again (11-13); if WE persevere, then we will reign with Him; but if we deny Him, then He will deny us (and we will NOT reign with Him, we will NOT enter Heaven!).

If we are faithless, A_Brother --- and there is no "faithlessl-saved"...

Brother your distinction making is woefully in lacking.
 
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A Brother In Christ

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It is impossible to be "truly believing" (saved), and "ungodly". Look at the qualities listed in 1Pet1:5-10; he who lacks qualities (including "godliness"), has forgotten former purification, will not receive the gates of Heaven.
read romans 4:5 again

ungodly man that believes is counted in heaven righteous.... why 1 cor 12:12-13 by the Holy Spirit putting the ungodly into Christ they are counted righteous because of Christ work!

1 jn 3:2-3 we have not be perfected till the rapture and we see His face
David repented --- we've discussed this.
Yet why can we sin and go boldly to the throne of grace.... heb 4:16 ....


sin has been paid for.....
confession is to remind ourselves who God is, what God has done.. and His promises
You would be better quoting John6:29, "It is the work of God that we believe."
you change what that verse is saying

john 1:13 states that man has no chance without God's calling
...yet, verse 27-28, says "God's work, that WE WORK (that we DO)."
In no way does the context of that conflict "cannot be unrighteously-saved".
Yet every man is unrighteous....
Please read that verse again (11-13); if WE persevere, then we will reign with Him; but if we deny Him, then He will deny us (and we will NOT reign with Him, we will NOT enter Heaven!).
adding things that are not there...
If we are faithless, A_Brother --- and there is no "faithlessl-saved"...
Around and around and around we go
Have you ever answered Eph5:5-6? Gal5:19-21? 1Cor6:9-11? 1Jn3:5-10?
friday will answer
 
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Ormly

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How so?
Which comes first --- God's "choosing", or our "believing"? In John17:6, God gives "those who belong to Him, are given to Jesus". "Belonging", denotes "belief". Simply, to receive Jesus as Savior and Lord (Master!).
While we have weak flesh, we sin; but we do not walk in sin, but rather abiding in Him we walk in repentance. And compared to the world, we sin rarely, not continually.
Please do --- I'm missing your point. Abraham believed, and it was reckoned to him as rightouesness.

We cannot walk in sin, for if we do, we are not walking in Christ (not saved). We who walk in Him, do not walk in sin.

"If we say that we have fellowship with Him but walk in darkness (sin!), we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all unrighteousness."

I started to respond to this but find I can't. Your response is so convoluted to me, I don't what to bring correction to first to get it back on track. Sorry.
 
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Ben johnson

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Ormly said:
Brother your distinction making is woefully in lacking.
Let's discuss the passage:

"If we have died with Him, then we will also live with Him.
If we endure, then we will reign with Him.
If we deny Him, then He will deny us.
If we are faithless, yet He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."


So on the "positive choices", we have:
Died with Him (Rom6, died to sin, united in His resurrection as a new creation)
Endure
Reign with Him

And on the "negative choices", we have:
Not-endure (implied), not-reign-with-Him (implied)
He will deny us before God (reflects Matt10:33)
If we ARE faithless (there is no way to be "faithlessly-saved")


Reads to me as two opposing choices...
I started to respond to this but find I can't. Your response is so convoluted to me, I don't what to bring correction to first to get it back on track. Sorry.
Perhaps it is the concept of "Gives". Per John6, "Those who come to Jesus, are given to Him by God --- and He will not cast them out."

Many people think that means "given, TO believe" --- but the answer is in John17:6 --- Jesus: "Father, those Thou hast given Me out of the world --- Thine they WERE, and Thou gavest them to Me."

I submit that "Thine they were", can only mean "belonged-to, believed-in, loved and worshipped God". This then explains Lydia (Acts16:14-16), who was a worshipper of God AND her eyes were opened to Jesus.

The context seems to me to clearly be saying "giving, is through belief".
 
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Ben johnson

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ABIC said:
read romans 4:5 again

ungodly man that believes is counted in heaven righteous.... why 1 cor 12:12-13 by the Holy Spirit putting the ungodly into Christ they are counted righteous because of Christ work!
We need to open a whole thread discussing the idea of "ungodly-saved".
1 jn 3:2-3 we have not be perfected till the rapture and we see His face
Can we deny that "ungodly", means "actively practicing sin"?
Yet why can we sin and go boldly to the throne of grace.... heb 4:16 ....
Jesus said, "Unless you REPENT, you will perish" --- Lk13:3 (5). How is there an "exception" for this?
sin has been paid for.....
confession is to remind ourselves who God is, what God has done.. and His promises
Not continual sin; as Heb10:26 says, continual sin isn't saved.

"Confession", is meaningless apart from repentance. Do you agree?
you change what that verse is saying
Then let's discuss John6:26-29.
john 1:13 states that man has no chance without God's calling
No, it says the begottenness[/b] is nothing of men and all of God --- verse 12 says "he who believes and receives Christ gains the right to BECOME God's children".
Yet every man is unrighteous....
How is that true? Please tell me your understanding of 2Cor5:21.
adding things that are not there...
Please see my previous post; I see two possibilities there...
Around and around and around we go
We are "saved by grace through faith". How then can there be any kind of "faithlessly-saved"?
friday will answer
Awesome --- I look forward to your words.

:)
 
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A Brother In Christ

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If we are faithless, A_Brother --- and there is no "faithlessl-saved"...
where the Jews that cross the red sea believers .... or are they the ones who worshipped idles ..... what does God say? let go to the chapter of faith Heb 11:27-29... they just did not get to recieve there reward do to unfaithfulness in there daily life thus God waited for physical death not spiritual ... which would be consisant of 1 cor 3:12-15
Have you ever answered Eph5:5-6?

eph 5:1 Be therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Matt 18:3-6 children do not make it complicated

eph 5: 2 and walk in love, as Christ also loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour.

love is a fruit from the spirit ... Gal 5:22-26 if not walking in the spirit they are focusing their minds on things of the earth thus becoming carnal ... thus gal 5:26 vain glory, provoking and envying other believers

Christ examples of love prior to the new comandment in John 13:34-35 is in John 13:13-15 washing the feet of the servants the more mature [master/Lord] seeing a need [dirty feet] and loving them without cost to hisself. conects to 1 jn 3:16-18

Sacrifice goes to Romans 12:1-2 to present a living sacrifice

eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be named among you, as becometh saints;

why are saints told this it is possible for them to walk in the flesh
2 peter 1:4 Given the greatest and best promises so that they might be parataker in the divine nature

eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving thanks.

these believers were having a problem of giving thanks in all things .. 1 thes 5:16-18 so they joked about it

eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

unclean person is one that has not been cover by the blood of Christ ... by the washing of the Holy Spirit

King David did several of these things but before He did God promised He would be the King during the 1000 yr reign ... Thus showing that GOD in his all knowingness knew that he would murder and covet his neigbor wife then committing adultry thus making him unclean .... That God would cover his sins already... Romans 4:5-8

eph 5:6 Let no man decieve you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the son's of disobedience.

Two camps ... 1 jn 3:10 children of God and the children of satan

1 cor 11:30-32, 1 thes 5:10, 1 thes 1:10

disobedience is the belief that Jesus died for there sins was buried three days and arose from the dead in a new body is God ... adding to this or subtracting to this gospel they are children of disobedience

eph 5:7 Be not therefore parataker with them.

possible for wheat and tares to intermingle ... matt 13:25,38

we are to be good by giving the hope in us... but this does not always happen

2 cor 3:18

eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

this is about consistanty.. in your walk other wise they would not need to be reminded .... this is about God's desireous will not determintive will

eph 5:11 and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather reprove them.

there problem is they they were loving the world and fellowshipping with them..... in stead of fellowshipping with other believers

eph 5:14 Wherefore He saith Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine thru you.

telling the believers who were sinning to remind themselves who they are in Christ ... paid for by the blood 1 cor 6:19-20 once and for all heb 10:14-18

Christ is already sealed this sinner who believed ...eph 1:13, rev 3:5, eph 4:30

count what is true romans 6:11-13 so that God can be shown forth out of the dirt of man God character can be shown forth

......1 of 3

 
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A Brother In Christ

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1Cor6:9-11?

1 cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God? Be not decieve: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulters, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 cor 6:11 and such were some of you [ARE RIGHT NOW] . but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, But ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our Lord.

This connects to romans 4:5

all this is God's work ... do all christian live up to God's standards no.... but God is mercyiful and graceous
 
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heymikey80

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Which comes first --- God's "choosing", or our "believing"? In John17:6, God gives "those who belong to Him, are given to Jesus". "Belonging", denotes "belief".
Scripture says God chose us in Him before the world began. God's choosing definitely comes first. Whether you like it being a cause or not, temporally it's first.

Is this a projection of your position? Why isn't it a valid conclusion? "You're mine only when you're accepting me, but when you're not accepting me, when you struggle with your faith and doubt, well, then I can't care about you as one of my sheep. Maybe as an outsider you'll get my attention; but not as a sheep."
 
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A Brother In Christ

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1Jn3:5-10?

1john 3:2 Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.

1 jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

1 jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


1 jn 3:3 and every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself even as He is pure.

the hope of the rapture has a purifing affect... if looking to one's promises

1 jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

romans 4:15-16.... law is to unbelievers used to show they need a saviour... 1 tim 1:9.. ungodly Jude 15.... Yet to those ungodly that Believe that Jesus is God and died for their sins they are called righteous... romans 4:5

1 jn 3:5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.

1 jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoeversinneth hath not seen Him, neither known him.

1 jn 3:7 Little children, let no man decieve you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

romans 4:5.. how to become righteous

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

2 cor 11:13-15



1 jn 3:8 He that commiteth sin of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

romans 7:20

1 jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God the Father does not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin because he is born of God.

commit = practice = pattern of whole life not a season

1 cor 11:30-32
heb 12:5--15

1 jn 4:10



1 jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

children of the devil ... eph 2:2-3
righteousness .... romans 4:2-8
 
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