Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

[Ben johnson]

When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their eternal security. Jude 24 declares, "To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy." God's power is able to keep the believer from falling.

You are missing verses 20-21; "Building YOURSELVES in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in His love awaiting the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."

It is up to Him, not us, to present us before His glorious presence.

To "present us before God holy and blameless" --- please read Col1:21-23; that "holy and blameless", is "If indeed we CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from (Jesus) our Hope of the Gospel".

Please see how "blameless" is charged to us in 2Pet3:14...

Our eternal security is a result of God keeping us, not us maintaining our own salvation.

I would like to hear what you think of this: "Take care of yourself and your teaching; PERSEVERE in these things; as you do you will SAVE YOURSELVES and those who hear you." 1Tim4:16

The Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:28-29b).

"Snatch", is "harpazo" --- sieze/remove forcibly. Please look at Heb3:6-14, how deception by sin to hardened-hearts that fall away from the living God is warned-against.

Both Jesus and the Father have us firmly grasped in their hand. Who could possibly separate us from the grip of both the Father and the Son?

Please read James1:14-16; lust births sin, and sin brings death. "Death" here is "thanatos", Strong's Greek Lexicon defines "physical death with expectation of eternity in Hell". Verse 16 says "beloved brethren".

Ephesians 4:30 tells us that believers are "sealed for the day of redemption."

It says "unTO", not "unTIL". That verse (4:30) ALSO says "do not grieve the Spirit" --- if we DO, will He REMAIN? See Heb10:29 ("insult the Spirit").

If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief.

Sorry, "unTO", is a promise, not a guarantee. It's fully conditional on our "continuing in Him (faith)".

John 3:15-16 tells us that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If a person were to be promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never "eternal" to begin with. If eternal security is not true, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error

No, just one understanding of what the Bible says. Eternal life is not "taken away" --- for Rom11:29 says "The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable (without repentance)" --- this is GOD'S position, HE will not "revoke/repent-of" the gift of salvation.

...our position, is that we can walk away from it. IF we do (by unbelief), then GOD has taken away NOTHING; we have left it ourselves. Please see 2Tim2:11-13 --- HE remains faithful even if WE are faithless and deny Him (which is stated causes HIM to deny us before GOD)...

The most powerful argument for eternal security is Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Our eternal security is based on God's love for those whom He has redeemed.

Do you think He does not love and desire salvation for those who PERISH? He does. 1Tim2:4, Ezk18:32!

(Is everyone looking these up? Or shall I go ahead and type them out here?)

Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Sealed, after belief. Eph1:13.

I believe that once a person exercises saving faith in Jesus Christ, he or she is forever in the family of God.

Forever, if they continue in faith. See 2Jn1:7-9, 1Jn2:26-28, Col1:21-23, Heb3:6-14 (and don't miss 4:11!).

* God never ‘kicks anyone out’ or no one ‘backslides’ out of his forever family.

See my previous post to Squint...

Many scriptures support this view:

1 Corinthians 12:13 we are told that at the moment of salvation the Holy Spirit places us in the body of Christ.

What does 1Cor10:13, and 1Cor10:12 say to you?

*Once we’re infused in the body of Christ, we are never eliminated from the body.

Ephesians 1:13 & Ephesians 4:30 indicate that the moment of believing in Jesus Christ for salvation, we are permanently “sealed” by the Holy Spirit.

Just answered these; looking forward to your response.

* At this point we are God’s never-ending property.
* That ‘seal’ guarantees that we will make it to heaven.

REALLY looking forward to your opinion of Heb3:6-14, and 4:11.

John 10:28-30 Jesus promises to keep it secure (despite anything that might happen) once we’ve trusted in Jesus Christ. Nothing can take us from his hands.

Nothing can FORCE us; but unbelief moves us away willingly.

God’s plans cannot be thwarted (Isa 14:24 KJV) "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:"

But God COMMANDS none to be saved --- Peter said "God decrees (boulemai) NONE to perish, but patiently makes-room (choreo) for ALL to repent.

Speaking of which --- Acts17:30 says "God commands all men everywhere to repent". How do you fit that with what you just said, about "God's will cannot be thwarted"?

Romans 8:29-39 portrays an unbroken chain that spans from the predestination of believers to their glorification in heaven.

Have you read Rom8:12-13? We have a choice --- nay, obligation. But we decide.

Hebrews 12:7-11 tells us that a believer is secure in his salvation …

It DOES??? Let's read it:
"It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as sons. What son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you lack discipline, ...then you are not sons but illegitimate. We had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them; SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the Father of spirits AND LIVE?

See that no root of bitterness spring up in you, causing trouble, and many defiled, see that none FALL SHORT of the grace of God!

See that you do not refuse Him who is speaking; for if they did not escape who refused earthly warnings, much less shall WE escape who turn away from GOD!!! Heb12:7-9, 15, 25

Really ruins the idea of "OSAS", doesn't it?

but this doesn’t mean that we are free to sin. If the Christian sins, and remains in that sin, scripture says that God will discipline him or her just as a father disciplines his children.

Nope --- it says "he is ILLEGITIMATE and NOT SONS".

Unsaved, "FW". Not sons.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Hi, "A_Brother". The context of the verse you cite, includes verse 26 --- which plainly says if we continue sinning willfully, Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers us, but we sit in expectation of Hell.

expectation of heb 12:6-12... and 1 cor 3:12-15 , and 1 cor 11:30-32

"Count", here, is "reckoned" --- in verse 10ff he says HOW it was "reckoned" --- by faith. True faith walks not in darkness, but in Jesus-the-Light.

romans 13:11-14 listed in these verses , 1 cor 3:3 carnal; 5:1 adultury;6:16-20 fornication with protitutes, 11:19-21 not loving the believers; 1 cor 12-14 pride in use of gifts.... all forms of darkness in the flesh... but still set apart in Christ Jesus in 1 cor 1:2

1Jn1:7-8
"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing." Jn15:5

The next verse is significant --- he says that anyone who does NOT abide in Him, is cut off and cast into the fire.

who is an overcomer.... 1 jn 5:4-5 no works ... romans 4:5 ungodly believer put into Christ

"With men it is not possible, but with God all things are possible." Mk10:26-27. This simply refers to the rich man who was asked to give up all he had; it seemed impossible to do, but Jesus said "it's not."

salvation ... is the subject
man can not earn there way to heaven

Matt19:24-26 is parallel to Mk10:26-27. It doesn't help OSAS...
I've answered the verses you've cited; will you answer the ones I've cited? Specifically --- 1Cor6:9-11, Gal5:19-21, Eph5:5-6, and 1Jn3:5-10 --- how can anyone "abide in sin", but "still be saved"? Each of those passages says "those who DO these things, will not inherit the kingdom of God".

present tense for believers right now... can recieve or use eternal life right now but it is a choice as 2 peter 1:4..... by these ye might be paratakers of the divine nature...

You are a patient man, ABIC; and well tempered. I've always appreciated you. I pray that God will be able to use me or someone else here, to teach you that no one can be enslaved to sin, and also be abiding in Christ.

Yet why was Paul in Romans 7..... enslaved and still saved is different than abiding in Christ ..resting in the heb 4:9-10

 

[squint]

Squint!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Otto
Squint...
you're down with the canons of Dordt, right?

how 'bout if by "men", it is talking about dust?

There is the lump, the vessel of honor, the vessel of wrath...

Mix them all up and you get RELIGION!

 

[squint]

James 5:19-20 is one.
So is 1Tim4:1.
And 1Tim6:10, & 21.
1Tim1:19-20 cites names. Hymenaeus and Alexander.
2Tim2:17-18 names Hymenaeus and Philetus.
Rom14:15 (and 1Cor8:11) speak of "ruining/destroying a brother for whom Christ died".
2Pet1:9 speaks of one who was "formerly purified" (but isn't now).
Heb10:29 speaks of one who was "sancified by Christ's blood" (but now isn't)

The observation still stands. Not a single one of those references even mention a one of those people burning alive in hell forever (or insert your favorite form of eternal damnation.)

I can go on --- but perhaps you'll give me your understanding of these...
What does that mean? "Complete captives", to what? We are slaves; EITHER to sin, OR to Christ --- Rom6 is very clear.

Slaves of SIN which is NOT US as God's offspring. It is more than clear than any of us can fall victim while in this present life. That does not mean that a fallen comrade of faith will burn alive (or see previous) as there is simply no such depiction in the entire N.T.

There is no such thing as "backslidden-SAVED"... It's not confusing; it's simple.

We are "saved" and "divided" from the powers of darkness. WE are not saved "from God."

The essence of salvation is John17:3: Jesus: "Father, eternal life is knowing YOU, and the One You sent (Me!)".
Found it, quoted it; just above...
There is great wisdom in your words here --- well done.

Someone once said, "Christians are the only soldiers who shoot their own wounded on the battlefield".

There really is no question that transpires.

May we rush to their aid, bearing BANDAGES and canteens of cool WATER and gently lead them to the infirmary.

Right...and if they can't bring "themselves" out from under the power of deception, we damn them to hell??? That's shooting in the back. That sowing to the flesh will get it's reaping in this life by the Word of God, but there is no such Word condemning our fellow fallen comrades of faith to burn alive. That just ain't how love works.

Indeed --- you are right. Look how Jesus treated the Prostitute. With kindness, love, acceptance, and expectation that she would turn away from her sin.
Exactly that; again, very well said.

Many are they who call themselves "Christian" --- but few who truly fit the mantle.

Who can fit the mantle of perfection than God IMPLYING His Perfection...sooner or later...

enjoy!

squint

 

[Rick Otto]

There is the lump, the vessel of honor, the vessel of wrath...

Mix them all up and you get RELIGION!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IG7vu16Fug

 

[wmc1982]

after your saved, if you do anything else wrong after that; you should be ashamed of yourself mister.

 

[Rick Otto]

You sound like you've met my mother.

 

[wmc1982]

You sound like you've met my mother.

Ricky what are you doing up this late? You know evil comes out at night. Listen to your mother.

 

[Rick Otto]

Ok,ok... I'm outta here!
(Please don't tell mom!)

 

[Ben johnson]

The observation still stands. Not a single one of those references even mention a one of those people burning alive in hell forever (or insert your favorite form of eternal damnation.)

Hi, "Squint". Each of those references, conveys "unsaved". They may not say "and went to Hell", but they also didn't say "but WILL be saved BEFORE they die". It is as Jesus said, "Unless you repent, you will perish". Lk13:3 (5) Besides, verses like James5:19-20 says "IF they are lead back" --- possible, but not guaranteed.

The fact is, that many verses speak of the real possibility of moving from salvation, to a place that cannot be "saved".

Slaves of SIN which is NOT US as God's offspring. It is more than clear than any of us can fall victim while in this present life. That does not mean that a fallen comrade of faith will burn alive (or see previous) as there is simply no such depiction in the entire N.T.

Yes, they do; "thanatos" fully conveys "death and Hell", and "denied before the Father" fully conveys "perish".

We are "saved" and "divided" from the powers of darkness. WE are not saved "from God."

Clearly, we (the "saved") can walk EITHER in darkness (Rom12 says "if WE do, we must DIE") --- or we can, by the power of the Holy Spirit, not walk in sin but walk in the Light.

You know that you and I sin --- we strive not to, but our flesh is weak. AFTER we sin, we have the same choice --- to sin again, or to repent. It is not the "sinning" that condemns us, it is the "again".

In John8:24 Jesus says "Unless you believe I am He, you will die in your sins". "Belief" is inseparable from "repentance", and "unrepentance" is inseparable from "unbelief".

There really is no question that transpires.

Do you think it happens from those who REALLY KNOW Him? No. As Matt7:21-23 says (and Rev3:14-22), there are many who THINK themselves "saved", but don't really know Him.

The Matt7 passage says "I never knew you; depart from Me you who practice wickedness."

Right...and if they can't bring "themselves" out from under the power of deception, we damn them to hell???

No, we cannot.

...but they condemn themselves by unrepentance.

That's shooting in the back. That sowing to the flesh will get it's reaping in this life by the Word of God, but there is no such Word condemning our fellow fallen comrades of faith to burn alive. That just ain't how love works.

God is "love". God is also "JUST" --- and He WILL not allow an unrepentant person through the gates of Heaven.

Look at how Peter words it in 2:1:5-10 --- we are to be "all the more diligent" (against the man who WAS formerly purified, but now LACKS the godly qualities that MUST accompany true faith) --- Peter says "For in this way (being diligent about our calling and election) the gates of Heaven will BE (abundantly) provided to you."

I've had people say "There is an ABUNDANT provision of the entrance to Heaven, and a SPARSE one (for sinners)." And I say, "No, Scripture is clear; it's "abundant", or "not at all".

Who can fit the mantle of perfection than God IMPLYING His Perfection...sooner or later...

Jesus said, "You are to be perfect, even as HE is perfect" Matt5:48

...and we can ONLY be "perfect", by Him-in-us. His righteousness is now ours (2Cor5:21).

enjoy!

squint

And you --- God bless you!

 

[Ben johnson]

Ok,ok... I'm outta here!
(Please don't tell mom!)

I'm gonna tellllll....

 

[Ben johnson]

who is an overcomer.... 1 jn 5:4-5 no works ... romans 4:5 ungodly believer put into Christ

"A_Brother", there is no "ungodly believer". Salvation is Christ in us --- if He is IN us, then HIS righteousness is OURS; we are righteous, not ungodly.

If we are ungodly, then as Jesus said "we will be known by our fruits" --- and He is NOT in us, for He will not participate in ungodliness.

I've given you the Scripture; how do I convince you of this?

"Saved belief", abides in Him and not in sin. It's black and white; we are EITHER slaves to sin and ALIEN to Christ, or we are slaves to Him and righteousness and do not walk in sin. Rom6 is clear --- please tell me what you think of the whole chapter...

 

[Ormly]

How is there "salvation", apart from "being born again"?

"If anyone be in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold all has become new." 2Cor5:17

Is there "salvation", without "being in Christ"?

Does the Blood of the Lamb shed for your sins mean that Christ is in you? Does the Blood have to be in you or simply upon you that one is redeemed; forgiven of his sins and the stain of Adam's trangression removed from him?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

"A_Brother", there is no "ungodly believer". Salvation is Christ in us --- if He is IN us, then HIS righteousness is OURS; we are righteous, not ungodly.

If we are ungodly, then as Jesus said "we will be known by our fruits" --- and He is NOT in us, for He will not participate in ungodliness.

I've given you the Scripture; how do I convince you of this?

"Saved belief", abides in Him and not in sin. It's black and white; we are EITHER slaves to sin and ALIEN to Christ, or we are slaves to Him and righteousness and do not walk in sin. Rom6 is clear --- please tell me what you think of the whole chapter...

Once again you have to deal with

romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness ..

scripture speak much louder than me arguing

 

[forgivenWretch]

You are missing verses 20-21; "Building YOURSELVES in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in His love awaiting the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life." To "present us before God holy and blameless" --- please read Col1:21-23; that "holy and blameless", is "If indeed we CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from (Jesus) our Hope of the Gospel".

Please see how "blameless" is charged to us in 2Pet3:14... I would like to hear what you think of this: "Take care of yourself and your teaching; PERSEVERE in these things; as you do you will SAVE YOURSELVES and those who hear you." 1Tim4:16
"Snatch", is "harpazo" --- sieze/remove forcibly. Please look at Heb3:6-14, how deception by sin to hardened-hearts that fall away from the living God is warned-against. Please read James1:14-16; lust births sin, and sin brings death. "Death" here is "thanatos", Strong's Greek Lexicon defines "physical death with expectation of eternity in Hell". Verse 16 says "beloved brethren".
It says "unTO", not "unTIL". That verse (4:30) ALSO says "do not grieve the Spirit" --- if we DO, will He REMAIN? See Heb10:29 ("insult the Spirit"). Sorry, "unTO", is a promise, not a guarantee. It's fully conditional on our "continuing in Him (faith)". No, just one understanding of what the Bible says. Eternal life is not "taken away" --- for Rom11:29 says "The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable (without repentance)" --- this is GOD'S position, HE will not "revoke/repent-of" the gift of salvation.

...our position, is that we can walk away from it. IF we do (by unbelief), then GOD has taken away NOTHING; we have left it ourselves. Please see 2Tim2:11-13 --- HE remains faithful even if WE are faithless and deny Him (which is stated causes HIM to deny us before GOD)...
Do you think He does not love and desire salvation for those who PERISH? He does. 1Tim2:4, Ezk18:32!

(Is everyone looking these up? Or shall I go ahead and type them out here?) Sealed, after belief. Eph1:13.
Forever, if they continue in faith. See 2Jn1:7-9, 1Jn2:26-28, Col1:21-23, Heb3:6-14 (and don't miss 4:11!).
See my previous post to Squint...
What does 1Cor10:13, and 1Cor10:12 say to you?
Just answered these; looking forward to your response.
REALLY looking forward to your opinion of Heb3:6-14, and 4:11.
Nothing can FORCE us; but unbelief moves us away willingly.
But God COMMANDS none to be saved --- Peter said "God decrees (boulemai) NONE to perish, but patiently makes-room (choreo) for ALL to repent.

Speaking of which --- Acts17:30 says "God commands all men everywhere to repent". How do you fit that with what you just said, about "God's will cannot be thwarted"?
Have you read Rom8:12-13? We have a choice --- nay, obligation. But we decide.
It DOES??? Let's read it:
"It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as sons. What son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you lack discipline, ...then you are not sons but illegitimate. We had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them; SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the Father of spirits AND LIVE?

See that no root of bitterness spring up in you, causing trouble, and many defiled, see that none FALL SHORT of the grace of God!

See that you do not refuse Him who is speaking; for if they did not escape who refused earthly warnings, much less shall WE escape who turn away from GOD!!! Heb12:7-9, 15, 25

Really ruins the idea of "OSAS", doesn't it? Nope --- it says "he is ILLEGITIMATE and NOT SONS".

Unsaved, "FW". Not sons.

Once again you have done nothing more than take God's word and try and refute it with God's word, only to benefit your self. The word of God does not contradict itself, only men such as yourself do that.

 

[beloved57]

I dont know why all this rambling , Jesus plainly says in Jn 10:

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I dont know why all this rambling , Jesus plainly says in Jn 10:

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Because ben cannot believe a christian can live in sin for a season ... and still be saved....

God is why anyone is saved... his choice ... john 1:13

God wants us to abide but he has not determine this ... it is a choice 2 peter 1:4

 

[Rick Otto]

Ben, refresh me.
Are you once saved, always maintaining,
or once offered but not yet earned,...
is there a similar boiled down description of your soteriological ontology?

 

[squint]

Hi, "Squint". Each of those references, conveys "unsaved".

As stated, ANY of us as believers can fall as victims of unrighteousness in this present life...

We cannot for example say...we are totally and completely RIGHTEOUS except by WORD'S imputations to us as believers. The fact remains that ALL of us are YET BOUND in mind and body with INDWELLING SIN.

Paul called that presence NO LONGER I. We "disassociate" ourselves as being THE SAME AS that which INDWELLS US" and we SEPARATE ourselves FROM that working, even though that WORKING remains WITH US...and can PREVAIL over us IF we do not understand that IT is NOT US. We simply fall back into 'blurring the lines."

Paul said that "whenever" he wanted to DO GOOD, that EVIL was present with him. EVIL then is a CONSTANT COMPANION...but it is NOT US as believers. THIS is what we are supposed to SEE.

NOR should we mistake OTHERS for what they too are BOUND WITH, believer OR unbeliever.

They may not say "and went to Hell"

That too is my point. What many try to present, is that there is ETERNAL LOSS of that former believer but that is NOT THERE anywhere presented in scripture for ANY believer. That is an imposition that is not available in scripture.

, but they also didn't say "but WILL be saved BEFORE they die".

Scripture does teach that there is POST DEATH salvation. All "total salvation" is POST DEATH. WE do not have our FULL SALVATION until we are REMOVED from the presence of INDWELLING SIN and EVIL PRESENT.

Romans 11:26 teaches that ALL OF ISRAEL shall be SAVED...even the PAST TENSE "made" enemies of the Gospel.

It is as Jesus said, "Unless you repent, you will perish". Lk13:3 (5) Besides, verses like James5:19-20 says "IF they are lead back" --- possible, but not guaranteed.

Since there is OBVIOUSLY evil present with us, we should be aware that we are NOT ALONE in the flesh.

Jesus, on nearly EVERY PAGE of the Gospels addressed OTHER ENTITIES in mankind. It is VERY LIKELY that those scriptures ARE IN FACT addressed to THOSE ENTITIES...

Jesus spoke to Satan IN PETER. Does this make PETER SATAN? Of course NOT!

Satan ENTERED Judas. Does this make JUDAS SATAN? Of course NOT! Jesus also spoke to SATAN in Judas.

Jesus spoke to an ENTIRE LEGION of DEVILS in the man of Gadarenes. So this FACT is not without precedent. WE should take into consideration the facts that we are NOT alone in flesh or mind...and perhaps then SEE who that side of The Word is addressing...and we may just find that it is NOT THE SLAVE, but the SLAVE MASTERS who are being spoken to.

The fact is, that many verses speak of the real possibility of moving from salvation, to a place that cannot be "saved".

The devil and his messengers who ARE found to be WITHIN mankind will NOT be saved and they CAN take their victims back, particularly if those VICTIMS do not "know" the difference between themselves as God's children and what we are ALL bound with. They think it's JUST THEM...just as YOU may think.

Not every thought that crosses the minds of men is FROM THEM. The DEVIL imposes HIS THOUGHTS and WILL on MANKIND. God also IMPOSES His Thoughts and Will upon mankind. Mankind is simply NOT ALONE in their "thought processes" or in their "actions."

Yes, they do; "thanatos" fully conveys "death and Hell", and "denied before the Father" fully conveys "perish".

You should take into consideration WHO is being addressed seeing that we are NOT ALONE. I believe in EVERY eternal damnation scripture. I just DON'T believe that those scriptures are addressing my fellow man, whom "we" are commanded to LOVE.

We can let every eternal damnation scripture ABIDE UPON THE DEVIL, the PRINCE OF THIS WORLD. That working is OF THE DEVIL and the DEVIL will pay the price of DAMNATION.

Clearly, we (the "saved") can walk EITHER in darkness (Rom12 says "if WE do, we must DIE") --- or we can, by the power of the Holy Spirit, not walk in sin but walk in the Light.

Light takes into consideration, the fact that we are NOT ALONE...

You know that you and I sin --- we strive not to, but our flesh is weak. AFTER we sin, we have the same choice --- to sin again, or to repent. It is not the "sinning" that condemns us, it is the "again".

When did sin indwelling the flesh and the EVIL that is present with us STOP SINNING? It NEVER stops. WE are asked NOT to "yield" ourselves to THAT WORKING but this also does not make THAT WORKING us...Indwelling SIN and EVIL PRESENT can come back to be OUR MASTER, but that is not the same as US just as it was not with Paul.

Paul saw this difference, and DIVIDED himself from it, even though it was WITH HIM til the day he died in the flesh, which he had to render DAILY because of the FACT of it's PRESENCE.

In John8:24 Jesus says "Unless you believe I am He, you will die in your sins". "Belief" is inseparable from "repentance", and "unrepentance" is inseparable from "unbelief".

Belief is a "work" of faith. Faith "works" through LOVE. Those who LOVE are perfected therein.

I do not believe any believer is PERFECTED in LOVE whilst simultaneously NOT seeing the difference between themselves and what ALL MANKIND are bound with...and then simultaneously CONDEMNING the slaves of sin to be burned alive forever in conscious torment. That is not love.

Judgment can and DOES still abide on that which we are ALL bound with.

IF and WHEN you see this "difference" then you may understand. But if you DON'T you are just bypassing the obvious and laying the blame where it does NOT belong.

enjoy!

squint

 

[A Brother In Christ]

"A_Brother", there is no "ungodly believer". Salvation is Christ in us --- if He is IN us, then HIS righteousness is OURS; we are righteous, not ungodly.

If we are ungodly, then as Jesus said "we will be known by our fruits" --- and He is NOT in us, for He will not participate in ungodliness.

I've given you the Scripture; how do I convince you of this?

"Saved belief", abides in Him and not in sin. It's black and white; we are EITHER slaves to sin and ALIEN to Christ, or we are slaves to Him and righteousness and do not walk in sin. Rom6 is clear --- please tell me what you think of the whole chapter...

Once again you have to deal with

romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness ..

scripture speak much louder than me arguing

waiting ben