Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

[Ormly]

The first thing that we need to understand in this discussion is the difference between being saved and being called.
We can fall away from our calling and loose out on salvation. Heb. 6:4-6 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame. That can happen to all of us during this life.


Mt. 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Note also Mt. 10:22 and Mk 13:13. So to be factual we are called at this time not yet saved. If we endure until the end we shall be saved.
As long as we are still flesh and blood we can reject God’s way and lose out on salvation.
If we endure until the end, (Christ’s return) we shall be saved, saved from pain and death and all the problems of this physical life. We will then be immortal spirit beings, and at that time we will not ever have to worry about loosing our salvation

I rather see it as those who are called are from among the saved because the call goes out to everyone not just to the many. Many respond to the call and from that group, few are chosen to pull the 'Kings Carriage'. Few qualify because they can't break free from this worlds attractions that they that might be groomed for the divine Life.

 

[AndOne]

gibberish.

Men can reject God.

Salvation is a walk with Christ. If we reject him, we reject our salvation.

That is why we must persevere to the end.

First off - I don't appreciate your statement out of the gate regarding my post as "gibberish."

If you are TRULY "walking with Christ" - please tell me how on earth you could possibly come to reject Him?

 

[chestertonrules]

First off - I don't appreciate your statement out of the gate regarding my post as "gibberish."

If you are TRULY "walking with Christ" - please tell me how on earth you could possibly come to reject Him?

Sorry, I'm caught up in the spirit here. However, I think you are too sensitive. We are debating, it is not a personal attack, but a rhetorical tool!

I won't name names, but I know many people who were once practicing Christians who have drifted away from their faith for one reason or another.

I don't think you can honestly say you don't know anyone like this.

It is very common. If you continue to ignore God's call, you can't be confident you will be saved.

You must bear fruit:

John 15:1-6 "...Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he [the Father] takes away...Abide in me and I in you...I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit...If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers, and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned."


If you are a branch, then you must have been connected to the vine, right?

 

[Ormly]

Uh, no it doesn't.

There is nothing in that verse to indicate that Demas is going to burn alive in hell for all time.

It is a well documented fact that believers can fall back under the sway of Satan while in this life. That in no means means that God in Christ condemns the CAPTIVES of SATAN...but in fact may mean just more judgment for SATAN for doing that vile working...

Whta do you mean by the word , "may"?

and in this way even the FALLEN BELIEVERS carry Satan to judgment in this present life. We all serve a bit O' that eh?

I hope you are only speaking for yourself.

We all serve to judge sins in the flesh and minds. That is why we all take up our respective crosses...and we as Gods children do bear our own respective burdens.

I didn't know that was all there is to it.

What we should realize is the "we" are not the same as the burdens we bear and we also then seek to DISIDENTIFY ourselves with SIN and it's workers as being NOT ourselves as God's children. We also therefore do not seek to be it's SLAVES.

What burdens are you alluding to that your 'many words' don't mention?

Sorry, but the rest of your 'in boldness' is to cryptic for me give an 'amen' to.

 

[AndOne]

Sorry, I'm caught up in the spirit here. However, I think you are too sensitive. We are debating, it is not a personal attack, but a rhetorical tool!

I won't name names, but I know many people who were once practicing Christians who have drifted away from their faith for one reason or another.

I don't think you can honestly say you don't know anyone like this.

It is very common. If you continue to ignore God's call, you can't be confident you will be saved.

You must bear fruit:

John 15:1-6 "...Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he [the Father] takes away...Abide in me and I in you...I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit...If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers, and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned."


If you are a branch, then you must have been connected to the vine, right?

Apology accepted - I'd be hypocritical if I said I didn't respond in anger from time to time. But I think this is something we can discuss with respect towards each other.

All I'm saying is that I don't believe someone as you described would be a Chrisitian to begin with. I do know folks like that - I was one myself. I just don't believe such folks ever were saved - or that I was. I think we can agree that in either case the end results would be the same. Right?

 

[Ormly]

I think there are some who will choose permanent separation from God.

I think most will be cleansed in purgatory.

Where is 'purgatory' in the bible? I have been looking for years and have never found it. I will accept even the notion of it.

 

[chestertonrules]

Apology accepted - I'd be hypocritical if I said I didn't respond in anger from time to time. But I think this is something we can discuss with respect towards each other.

All I'm saying is that I don't believe someone as you described would be a Chrisitian to begin with. I do know folks like that - I was one myself. I just don't believe such folks ever were saved - or that I was. I think we can agree that in either case the end results would be the same. Right?

Yes, if that were the case. But in Jesus' analogy to the vine, the branch was clearly attached, and since it did not bear fruit it was removed and burned.

This is not the same as never truly accepting Christ.

I believe we must persevere in our walk, seeking forgiveness when needed.

 

[chestertonrules]

Where is 'purgatory' in the bible? I have been looking for years and have never found it. I will accept even the notion of it.

This will be a long post, so I apologize, but since you asked, here are the biblical supports for the belief in purgatory.(i agree that the word is not in the bible, but neither is trinity!)



I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti&#8221 generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.
Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.
Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.
1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.
Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.
Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.
Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.
Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.
2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.
Top

II. Purification After Death By Fire

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).
1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty&#8221. Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).
1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, "but only" (or “yet so&#8221 as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase "but only" (or “yet so&#8221 in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.
1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).
1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.
1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.
Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.
Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).
Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.
Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.
Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.
Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory. Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death. Top

 

[Ormly]

Separation from God is another way of saying death, but a permanent death of the spirit.


((IF people were saved by taking their own "chances" we'd have no need for A Saviour.))

Christ is the lifeboat. He can do you no good if you don't get in, however.

Once presented with the truth, however, who would refuse?

Those who say they will have no God to rule them. Read your history books. . . .never mind, just look around you, at times, maybe even yourself..

 

[Ormly]

Yes it is.

How's it going for you so far? heehee

I know Him as Lord. Do you?

 

[chestertonrules]

Those who say they will have no God to rule them. Read your history books. . . .never mind, just look around you, at times, maybe even yourself..

My answer would be that they truly didn't understand what they were doing.

As Jesus said, "forgive them, father, for they know not what they do"

For this reason I am not ruling out universal salvation.

It is not for me to decide.

However, I wouldn't bet on it!

 

[chestertonrules]

I know Him as Lord. Do you?

Yes, I do.

But I still sin, and must ask for forgiveness.

Have you stopped sinning?

 

[Ormly]

This will be a long post, so I apologize, but since you asked, here are the biblical supports for the belief in purgatory.(i agree that the word is not in the bible, but neither is trinity!)



I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.
Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.
Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.
1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.
Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.
Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.
Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.
Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.
2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.
Top

II. Purification After Death By Fire

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).
1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).
1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, "but only" (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase "but only" (or “yet so”) in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.
1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).
1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.
1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.
Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.
Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).
Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.
Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.
Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.
Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory. Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death. Top

I started and got stopped by having my intelligence shocked. I can't finish it. I can stand it. It violates my sensibilities and everything I ever learned from the Bible.
However, I did say I would accept even a 'notion' of there being a purgatory. I lied. I can't accept that distortion and falsehood that for 2000yrs it has been taught by the Church.

 

[Ormly]

Yes, I do.

But I still sin, and must ask for forgiveness.

Have you stopped sinning?

Not so fast and glib. I said "know Him". Define the word before you say you do.

 

[chestertonrules]

Indeed, I am intolerant ... of error spammed up as truth.

Simpled mind? Yes, like a child at times. I am happy for that.

Open your mind to truth:

The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45) as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works, such as one which records that Adam will be in mourning "until the day of dispensing punishment in the last years, when I will turn his sorrow into joy" (The Life of Adam and Eve 46–7). Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.

Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine. As the quotes below from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning.

Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular "place" in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.


The Acts of Paul and Thecla


"And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her [Thecla]. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: ‘Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the righteous’" (Acts of Paul and Thecla [A.D. 160]).


Abercius


"The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste Shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed: Truly, I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius" (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]).


The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity


"[T]hat very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I [Perpetua] saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease. . . . For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other . . . and knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then . . . I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me: I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment" (The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4 [A.D. 202]).


Tertullian


"We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries [the date of death—birth into eternal life]" (The Crown 3:3 [A.D. 211]).

"A woman, after the death of her husband . . . prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice" (Monogamy 10:1–2 [A.D. 216]).


Cyprian of Carthage


"The strength of the truly believing remains unshaken; and with those who fear and love God with their whole heart, their integrity continues steady and strong. For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace [i.e., reconciliation] is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigor of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord" (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).
http://www.catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp

 

[Ormly]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
Indeed, I am intolerant ... of error spammed up as truth.

Simpled mind? Yes, like a child at times. I am happy for that.

Open your mind to truth:

The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ.

Sorry Bunk, not this Kid.

 

[TraderJack]

As a follow up to the thread which initially asked the question, This is in poll form. But please feel free to presend whatever scriptural evidence you think supports your position.

If by once saved, always saved you mean, "Preservation of the saints" that what Christ started in the saints He will finish?

Then absolutely.

Christ's Atonement was not to make it possible for someone to be saved, it was an actual savific act that accomplished exactly what He came to do, Redeem the Elect.

 

[TraderJack]

Open your mind to truth:

The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ.

Wrong.

The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45)

Oh, you mean that obscure passage from a non-canonical book that Rome has twisted to apply it to the concept of purgatory.

Well, the thief on the Cross next to Jesus did not go to any purgatory, and I doubt very seriously if any Roman Catholic would say that thief did not have sins that needed cleansing. Yet Jesus told him, "This day, you will be with ME in Paradise."

No get out of jail free card needed. Jesus paid his full price of admittance into the Kingdom.

Jesus didn't say, "Some day", or "after you have been in purgatory for a while" but He said, "THIS DAY", ie-This very day.

 

[NoDoubt]

Catechism says:

#1030 “All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified…after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.”

#1472 …every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. …

BIBLE says:

Hebrews 1:3 …When he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the majesty on high.

I John 1:7 If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Catechism

#1475 “In the communion of saints, ‘a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth.”

BIBLE

I John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

I John 2:1-2 And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Catechism

#498 “Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.”

BIBLE​

Acts 8:20 But Peter said to him, ‘May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money.’ ​

What a terrible deception to impose on faithful Catholics. The very reason and purpose of why Christ Jesus became man and suffered such an excruciating death was to expiate sin, once and for all, by His perfect sacrifice. How can any church that claims to follow Jesus Christ withhold this truth from its people! Not only has the Roman Catholic Church withheld the knowledge of the completeness of Christ finished work on the cross, but she has gone to the extreme of creating a non-existant place called Purgatory that nullifies the Savior’s finished work. “Then said he [Christ] Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” Hebrews 10:9-10 ​

 

[Ormly]

Catechism says:

#1030 “All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified…after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.”

#1472 …every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. …

BIBLE says:

Hebrews 1:3 …When he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the majesty on high.

I John 1:7 If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Catechism

#1475 “In the communion of saints, ‘a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth.”

BIBLE

I John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

I John 2:1-2 And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Catechism

#498 “Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.”

BIBLE​

Acts 8:20 But Peter said to him, ‘May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money.’ ​

What a terrible deception to impose on faithful Catholics. The very reason and purpose of why Christ Jesus became man and suffered such an excruciating death was to expiate sin, once and for all, by His perfect sacrifice. How can any church that claims to follow Jesus Christ withhold this truth from its people! Not only has the Roman Catholic Church withheld the knowledge of the completeness of Christ finished work on the cross, but she has gone to the extreme of creating a non-existant place called Purgatory that nullifies the Savior’s finished work. “Then said he [Christ] Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” Hebrews 10:9-10 ​

"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousnes" Romans 1:17-18 (KJV)