Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

[squint]

There is not one single instance in the entire Bible where any named "believer" is stated to have LOST their eternal salvation.

IT is undoubtedly a possibility to fall back under the slaveship of Satan in flesh and mind WHILE IN THIS PRESENT LIFE, but that by NO MEANS translates to loss of eternal salvation.

So in brief, there is not a single SHRED of evidence showing a single named believer falling into ETERNAL CONDEMNATION and the presentation is therefore not supportable.

 

[chestertonrules]

But here is the rub. When we accept that gift, we are told that we become a new creature in Christ. What you propose is that we can then completely divorce ourselves from our new nature, rejecting Christ who is now united in us and we in Him. While we certainly can turn our backs and walk in the flesh (sin) even after we have been united with Him, scripture tells us that God is STILL faithful, even when we are not. We cannot seperate ourselves from Him after once being joined with Him.

We don't lose our free will by choosing to follow Christ.

We must pick up our cross and follow without putting it down.

God offers us grace to help us complete the journey. However, we must actively seek this grace.

Avoid temptation, forgive your trespassers.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Sure. It's saying that it's impossible for a believer to fall away (lose their salvation) and them come back again without Christ being crucified anew. It's one of the foundations that support OSAS, not detract from it.

It is saying that it is impossible for a believer who had once been enlightened by the spirit and fall away to come back.

Heb 6:4 As for those who at one time saw the light, tasting the good things from heaven, and having their part in the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 With knowledge of the good word of God, and of the powers of the coming time,
Heb 6:6 And then let themselves be turned away, it is not possible for their hearts to be made new a second time; because they themselves put the Son of God on the cross again, openly shaming him.

Read it properly. It is not saying that it is impossible to turn away but it is saying it is impossible to turn away and return.

(RV)
Heb 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

(ISV)

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible to keep on restoring to repentance time and again people who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have become sharers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 who have tasted the goodness of God's word and the powers of the coming age,
Heb 6:6 and who have fallen away, as long as they continue to crucify to themselves the Son of God and to expose him to public ridicule.

(ESV)

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The original greek literally says "and falling aside". How is this used to support OSAS?

 

[forgivenWretch]

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Can anyone explain this for me. I can't see OSAS in this.

Scripture taken out of context never will allow for clear sight....read the whole thing, and then find other scripture that applies. Do not pick and choose.

Hebrews 6

1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.​

The Certainty of God's Promise
13When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself, 14saying, "I will surely bless you and give you many descendants."[c] 15And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised. 16Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. 19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.



Once Saved, Always Saved – The Biblical Evidence
The Bible teaches “once saved, always saved” -- that we can be saved once and for all only through a repentant, saving faith in Jesus Christ. Once a person has accepted Christ as Savior, they may wonder if it is possible to lose that salvation. What if they commit a sin? What if they commit a lot of sins? What if they do something very, very wrong? Is it possible to be saved, and then lose that salvation? Fortunately, the answer is a resounding “no.” Once a person has accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, he/she is forever saved. This fact is referred to as the doctrine of “eternal security,” often summarized as “once saved, always saved.”

There are several reasons why a person can be confident in their “eternal security.” First and foremost is the evidence of Scripture. John 3:15-18 says about Christ: “The Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”

The salvation in Christ is not temporary, it is eternal.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

There is not one single instance in the entire Bible where any named "believer" is stated to have LOST their eternal salvation.

IT is undoubtedly a possibility to fall back under the slaveship of Satan in flesh and mind WHILE IN THIS PRESENT LIFE, but that by NO MEANS translates to loss of eternal salvation.

So in brief, there is not a single SHRED of evidence showing a single named believer falling into ETERNAL CONDEMNATION and the presentation is therefore not supportable.

I agree squint. The text i am quoting has a deeper meaning than what it appears that i am trying to say. I only used to text to show that one can fall away. And not to say that one can loose salvation eternally. The bible only gives the instance of the grieving of the holy spirit where salvation seems to be lost for the one committing that sin.

 

[mattlock73]

We don't lose our free will by choosing to follow Christ.

We must pick up our cross and follow without putting it down.

God offers us grace to help us complete the journey. However, we must actively seek this grace.

Avoid temptation, forgive your trespassers.

Agreed, but you are speaking of something different. What you speak of is sanctification, not salvation (justification). God does not give us grace to complete the work of salvation, He did it all Himself and requires nor accepts any 'help' from us.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Scripture taken out of context never will allow for clear sight....read the whole thing, and then find other scripture that applies. Do not pick and choose.

Hebrews 6

1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.​

The Certainty of God's Promise
13When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself, 14saying, "I will surely bless you and give you many descendants."[c] 15And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised. 16Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. 19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.



Once Saved, Always Saved – The Biblical Evidence
The Bible teaches “once saved, always saved” -- that we can be saved once and for all only through a repentant, saving faith in Jesus Christ. Once a person has accepted Christ as Savior, they may wonder if it is possible to lose that salvation. What if they commit a sin? What if they commit a lot of sins? What if they do something very, very wrong? Is it possible to be saved, and then lose that salvation? Fortunately, the answer is a resounding “no.” Once a person has accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, he/she is forever saved. This fact is referred to as the doctrine of “eternal security,” often summarized as “once saved, always saved.”

There are several reasons why a person can be confident in their “eternal security.” First and foremost is the evidence of Scripture. John 3:15-18 says about Christ: “The Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”

The salvation in Christ is not temporary, it is eternal.

God has eternally made up his mind to save us but we are subject to change our minds. We are human. God gives us a choice.

You told me i took the text out of context and yet cannot show how. The text is plain and simple.

Mar 4:14 The sower soweth the word.
Mar 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Mar 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

Weren't these people once saved?

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Eze 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Eze 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

 

[forgivenWretch]

God has eternally made up his mind to save us but we are subject to change our minds. We are human. God gives us a choice.

You told me i took the text out of context and yet cannot show how. The text is plain and simple.

Mar 4:14 The sower soweth the word.
Mar 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Mar 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

Weren't these people once saved?

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Eze 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Eze 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Dispute me all you wish...it matters not...you only have to answer to God...

 

[forgivenWretch]

My friends this is getting quite ridiculous!

I love you...
God loves you...
...but yes you have choices.

I choose to believe that which God tells me, and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that no matter when He calls me home....I am guaranteed...my home in heaven.

In by your choosing not to believe God and His Word...so be it...that is between you and Him.

Satan claims victory again and again. And remember the agony never ends.

God be With You!
​

 

[chestertonrules]

Agreed, but you are speaking of something different. What you speak of is sanctification, not salvation (justification). God does not give us grace to complete the work of salvation, He did it all Himself and requires nor accepts any 'help' from us.

That's not what the bible says.

Jesus is the lifeboat. We can't reach shore without him. However, we must get in the boat and stay in.

It is possible to acknowledge the existence of the lifeboat without getting in.

It is possible to jump out after getting in.

Jesus is the only means to salvation, but that doesn't mean we don't have to do anything.

(unless you believe in universal salvation)

 

[chestertonrules]

((I choose to believe that which God tells me, and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that no matter when He calls me home....I am guaranteed...my home in heaven.)))


If you come to hate God and you reject all his commandments, will you still be saved?

 

[Ormly]

I'm pretty sure no one in the OT was "indwelt", rather The Spirit was "upon" some:
1 Samuel 10:9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day. 10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

I understand that is how it can be read to mean, however, it must be assumed that God gave him a new heart at the outset and God was controlling Saul as one would a puppet. That was not the case. Saul, in his flesh, started out OK and went south very quickly because of his flesh that refused to be instructed by God.. That is one of the reasons God chose David who, it is said, was a man after God's own Heart..

Hope that helps.

 

[chestertonrules]

But here is the rub. When we accept that gift, we are told that we become a new creature in Christ. What you propose is that we can then completely divorce ourselves from our new nature, rejecting Christ who is now united in us and we in Him. While we certainly can turn our backs and walk in the flesh (sin) even after we have been united with Him, scripture tells us that God is STILL faithful, even when we are not. We cannot seperate ourselves from Him after once being joined with Him.

Are you saying that Christians stop sinning once they acknowledge Christ as savior?

God is just. He gives us clear instructions with regard to what is required of us.


Here are a few:

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

- Matthew 19:16-17 "'Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?'...'If you would enter life, keep the commandments.'" Isn't keeping the commandments a set of works?

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

- Hebrews 12:14 "Strive for peace with all men and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord." Both faith and works...we have to "strive" for holiness

- James 2:20 "Do you want to be shown you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren?"

Can a barren faith save you?

 

[Ormly]

There is not one single instance in the entire Bible where any named "believer" is stated to have LOST their eternal salvation.

IT is undoubtedly a possibility to fall back under the slaveship of Satan in flesh and mind WHILE IN THIS PRESENT LIFE, but that by NO MEANS translates to loss of eternal salvation.

So in brief, there is not a single SHRED of evidence showing a single named believer falling into ETERNAL CONDEMNATION and the presentation is therefore not supportable.

With Paul writing:

Luke, the beloved physician, sends you his greetings, and also Demas. Colossians 4:14 (NASB77)

Make every effort to come to me soon; for Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica; Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia. 2 Timothy 4:9-10 (NASB77)

These verses can certainly be read to argue either position. I would suggest that one argument is much easier to support than the other.

 

[squint]

I agree squint. The text i am quoting has a deeper meaning than what it appears that i am trying to say. I only used to text to show that one can fall away. And not to say that one can loose salvation eternally. The bible only gives the instance of the grieving of the holy spirit where salvation seems to be lost for the one committing that sin.

And you know in advance how that will be responded to.

IT is up to God which vessel He raises in any given LUMP.

It is beyond question that God allows vessels of dishonor to hold sway over us in flesh and mind at least in part and this is in fact the present condition of all of us in addition to the condition of all mankind.

IF mankind were the only parties to all these scriptures, then we could say without any doubt who was who, but since that is NOT the case we are obligated to measure the benefit of GRACE to the vessels of honor and the measure of eternal damnation to the vessels of dishonor

AND NOT TO MIX THE TWO...AS that is a measure of the darkness....

 

[ThomasDa]

The first thing that we need to understand in this discussion is the difference between being saved and being called.
We can fall away from our calling and loose out on salvation. Heb. 6:4-6 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame. That can happen to all of us during this life.


Mt. 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Note also Mt. 10:22 and Mk 13:13. So to be factual we are called at this time not yet saved. If we endure until the end we shall be saved.
As long as we are still flesh and blood we can reject God’s way and lose out on salvation.

If we endure until the end, (Christ’s return) we shall be saved, saved from pain and death and all the problems of this physical life. We will then be immortal spirit beings, and at that time we will not ever have to worry about loosing our salvation.

 

[squint]

With Paul writing:

Luke, the beloved physician, sends you his greetings, and also Demas. Colossians 4:14 (NASB77)

Make every effort to come to me soon; for Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica; Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia. 2 Timothy 4:9-10 (NASB77)

These verses can certainly be read to argue either position. I would suggest that one argument is much easier to support than the other.

Uh, no it doesn't.

There is nothing in that verse to indicate that Demas is going to burn alive in hell for all time.

It is a well documented fact that believers can fall back under the sway of Satan while in this life. That in no means means that God in Christ condemns the CAPTIVES of SATAN...but in fact may mean just more judgment for SATAN for doing that vile working...and in this way even the FALLEN BELIEVERS carry Satan to judgment in this present life. We all serve a bit O' that eh?

We all serve to judge sins in the flesh and minds. That is why we all take up our respective crosses...and we as Gods children do bear our own respective burdens.

What we should realize is the "we" are not the same as the burdens we bear and we also then seek to DISIDENTIFY ourselves with SIN and it's workers as being NOT ourselves as God's children. We also therefore do not seek to be it's SLAVES.

 

[chestertonrules]

The first thing that we need to understand in this discussion is the difference between being saved and being called.
We can fall away from our calling and loose out on salvation. Heb. 6:4-6 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame. That can happen to all of us during this life.


Mt. 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Note also Mt. 10:22 and Mk 13:13. So to be factual we are called at this time not yet saved. If we endure until the end we shall be saved.
As long as we are still flesh and blood we can reject God’s way and lose out on salvation.
If we endure until the end, (Christ’s return) we shall be saved, saved from pain and death and all the problems of this physical life. We will then be immortal spirit beings, and at that time we will not ever have to worry about loosing our salvation

Well put.

Too often we are simply debating semantics here.

 

[chestertonrules]

1 Timothy 2

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.



Then why aren't all men saved?



Or are they?

 

[squint]

The first thing that we need to understand in this discussion is the difference between being saved and being called.
We can fall away from our calling and loose out on salvation. Heb. 6:4-6 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame. That can happen to all of us during this life.

But you see Thomas, you only continually mistake the actions that transpire IN people as only being THEM when that is assuredly NOT the case. Not only this but you HAVE been shown clearly that SATAN WORKS IN MANKIND on nearly every page of the Gospels. You have been OPENLY INFORMED of this working at least by ME...and yet you STILL only blame and accuse our fellow man, which in itself IS a working of BLINDNESS...in you...

You cannot neglect THE FACTS of the working of SIN and the implications of SATAN only at the "eternal expense" of your fellow man.

OBVIOUSLY these believers are FRONT LINE CASUALTIES.

No worthy warrior of God stabs or shoots his own compatriots of the faith who have FALLEN in the back, yet alone condemns them to burn alive forever. That is the measure of a TURNCOAT TRAITOR. A PAWN and VICTIM of the ENEMIES. And perhaps one who have never known God themselves as LOVE.