Part 1
Dispy said:
Originally Posted by Dispy A believer that "walks in the flesh" is demonstrating his works.
Ben johnson said:
Hi, Dispy. In my understanding, there is no such thing as "a believer who walks in the flesh". By definition, one who believes and receives Jesus, walks in Him; he who does not walk in Christ (but in sins), does not really believe.
Well, I highly recomment that you read the book of 1 Corinthians. Paul calls the believers there carnal, and the abuse the partaking of the Lord's Supper (1 Cor. 10:16-22.) Even 1 Cor. 5:1 "Ti is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife."
Paul is writeing to believers "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth to them that are sanctified in Chirst Jesus,
CALLED TO BE SAINTS...." (1 Cor. 1:2).
I would consider those Corinthian believers saints that still have the old sin nature within them, and still able to walk in the flesh.
Dispy said:
So, let us consider 1 Cor. 3:8...
The above passage pertains only to believers. Unbelievers will not stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ, as stated above. All unbelievers' works will be revealed at the Great White Throne Judgment Seat of Rev. 20:11-15. Those unbelievers will be cast into the fire that reveals their works.
Ben johnson said:
I believe that passage connects to 1Pet1:6-7, where the "fire of trials" refines us (as fire refines gold). "Saved through fire", to me conveys "taught to produce better works".
Paul in 1 Cor. is writeing to members of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, saved under the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began," i.e the Gospel of the Grace of God. Peter is writeing to believers that were saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom." There is no connection to the two passages. It is two different Apostles writeing to two diffferent peoples that were saved under two different gospels.
Dispy said:
You said in another post: "Because salvation is forfeitable." Well, if it is, then I never received salvation (eternal life), but placed on probation until the day I die, or am raptured.
Ben johnson said:
Please consider that as "salvation is by grace through faith", specifically faith that receives Christ and abides in Him (and Him in us), if that faith can become unbelief, then we cease to be saved. Not "probation", not "unsaved". It is as John said in 2:1:7-9, he who goes too far (because of listening to deceivers) and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, has not God; he who abides in the teachings, has the Father and the Son."
As 1Jn5:11-13 says, "He who has the Son, has eternal life; I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know you have eternal life."
Because "belief" can be deceived and end, so too can salvation.
..
I have placed my FAITH ALONE (belived) in the Cross work of Christ for my salvation. Therefore, according to Eph. 1:13-14, I am sealed by the holy Spirit of promis until the redemption of the purchased possession. (My salvation was purchased by the blood of Christ.) Isn't that a contradiction of what you believe. What is your take on Eph. 1:12-14?
Dispy said:
So, let us consider 1 Cor. 3:8...
The above passage pertains only to believers. Unbelievers will not stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ, as stated above. All unbelievers' works will be revealed at the Great White Throne Judgment Seat of Rev. 20:11-15. Those unbelievers will be cast into the fire that reveals their works.
Ben johnson said:
Perhaps our disagreement is on the source of our "saving-faith". If it's a unilateral gift from God, then of course it cannot end. But if we DECIDE to believe, we can later decide to disbelieve. This is the message in so many passages; Heb3:6-14 (and 4:11!) foremost, and James1:14-16, 1Tim4:16. Peter does an excellent warning in 2:1:5-10...
Every person is given the free will to either accept the free gift of salvation, or reject it. According to Romans 12:3, every man is given "a measure of faith." Therefore, all thost that place their FAITH in the Cross work of Christ for their salvation, they are placed into the Body of Christ, and become a member of His flesh and of His bones. Further, I am sealed until the day of my redemption. Everyone that places their faith in some other means will not be saved. Yes, we make the decision of either accepting or rejection that free gift of salvation.
Dispy said:
How are you "receiving what he did?
Ben johnson said:
By faith. My faith. And in Him I dwell, by faith. His power, my belief; His might, my diligence. His righteousness, my conscious submission to Him.
Tell me, do you still give in to the desires of your flesh? Or, do you never commit a sin?
Dispy said:
Didn't know we were discussing Calvinism. Hey, I was being taught the Calvinist Hiedelberg Catechism even before I lost all my baby teeth. I came from a very long line of strong Calvinists. My early education was in the Christian Reform "Christian School." Two of my fathers first cousins were professors at Calvin College. One was even honored by having a "house" named after him. The Calvinist doctrine I no longer embrace. Yes, there are a few thing that I can agree with a Calvinist, but for entirely diffferent reasons.
Ben johnson said:
There are three "OSAS" positions; the second is Calvinism.
The third I call "Eternal Security". It asserts that atonement is unlimited (all men CAN believe); but once "in", either a man's heart is too changed to DISbelieve, or God dynamically interferes to prevent apostasy.
Ben johnson said:
NO!!!
Dispy said:
But you say that I can lose my salvation if I, on occasions, please the flesh. Paul, in Romans 7:15-25, hase the same mortal problem, and has to fight on a daily basis. Howver I can find comfort in Romans 8:1 which states "There is therefore now no comdemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus...." (who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit) are interpolated into the text, but rightly stated in verse 4.
Ben johnson said:
Please read the context of ch8 --- it's the answer to the problem in ch7. And Paul clearly presents "walking in the Spirit, or walking in the flesh", as possible.
What is the consequence of walking in the flesh? Verse 8:12-14.
Paul in verse 11 says: "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren we are debtors, not o the flesh, to live after the flesh,
13 For it ye live after the flesh (reject the gift of salvaltion), ye shall die; but if ye through the Sirit do mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body, shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."
The Apostle Paul, you and I, still have the old sin nature within us and, like Paul will do things we know we shouldn't do. As Paul says in Romans ;7:18 that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing. So, do you thing that Paul is unsaved being in his flesh dwelleth no good theing?
Dispy said:
Paul wrote the above and is the same Paul that wrote Ephesians 1:12-14. He is not contradicting himself.
Ben johnson said:
No, he doesn't; but if what Paul says contradicts my doctrine, or your doctrine, then we will do well to re-examine our positions.
Dispy said:
He doesn't contradict my doctrine, and being you disagree with me, then maybe you should re-examing your position.
Dispy said:
Yes, The price Christ paid on the Corss was sufficient and complete. He paid the sin debt for all mankind. Therefore, no one will every stand before God and be judged according to their sins.
Ben johnson said:
I think you're missing the fact that sins are not forgiven, without repentance. As Jesus said in Lk13:3, "Unless you REPENT, you will perish".
Tell me now, What sins didn't Jesus die for?
While Jesus ministered upon the earth, the unbelievers were the ones that didn't believe that He was the long promised Messiah of Israel. Those that believed on Him (changed their view as to who He was) earned eternal life. Repent just means to have a change of mind/turn around/change one's way of life/show remorse for wrong doing.
Dispy said:
At the Judgment Seat of Christ (1 Cor. 1:3-15) and The Great White Throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15) man will be judged "according to their works." Works of the flesh (sin) will be given their just reward, and cast into the fire.
Ben johnson said:
The WORKS will be cast into the fire, but the people will NOT?
They will. Rev20:12&15 is clear; he who has sinful works, is also he who is not written in the Book of Life; he is cast into the fire.
My bad in stating it badly, The workers will be cast into the lake of fire.
Dispy said:
Yes, salvation is a free gift. It is given to all who will place their FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ for their salvation. There are no strings attached. Therefore, it become the sole posession of the one that accepts the free gift. Salvation is the free gift of God's Grace.
Ben johnson said:
I agree --- and yet, there is far more required of us. It is not "mere belief" that saves us --- as James says, "You believe in one God; you do well. But even demons believe, and shudder." 2:19
No, it is only a certain kind of belief that saves us --- the kind that receives the indwelling Lord and Spirit; the kind that therefore (because of Him-in-us) PRODUCES good works.
There is nothing I can do to add to my salvation. Jesus Chrst did it all. Anything I do to add to my salvation ie practicing religion.
FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ is all that is needed for salvation. We are saved
UNTO good works (Eph. 2:10).
The moment one places their
FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ for their salvation, the Holy Spirit baptizes that one into the Body of Christ. Further, the Holy Spirit of God will indwell that person from that moment on. One will never have more, or less, of the Holy Spirit then at the moment of salvation.
Dispy said:
I have considered every thing you posted, and replied to all of it.
I do believe that the "imperishable wreath" is eternal life.
Ben johnson said:
Dispy said:
It is something we as believers strive for and will receive at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The more of our works that survive the test of fire, greater will be that "imperishable wreath" (crown of glory).
Ben johnson said:
Since you accept that "we race for the imperishable wreath", then how could either of us deny that Paul expressed concern about "being disqualified from HIS race"? The term "adokimos", was significant --- they would collect coins, and examine them to see if they were worn; if a coin no longer bore the image that had been impressed upon it, it was "adokimos-disqualified-unapproved". Rejected. Thrown away.
If you have ever entered, or observed, a foot race, you will notice that there is always someone that will finish last. One will not find that one upon the platform to receive the victors medal/reward, however, that one had still completed by running the race. At the Judgment seat of Christ, all those believers who's works did not pass the test of fire; will lose rewards, but still be saved.
to be continued.