Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

AndOne · Mar 5, 2008

I can certainly understand how you find it supported in scripture. But these scriptures do not explain how it is even possible for a person's heart to change to even be able to have faith. There are scriptures that do and I for the life of me can't understand how those go ignored or constantly get distorted to mean something else. I just don't believe scripture trumps scripture - it all fits together like a majestic puzzle - that responsible grace simply cannot put together the pieces.

Ben johnson · Mar 5, 2008

ABIC said:
children of disobedience.... in eph 5:6
children of disobedience are empowered by the prince of the power of the air which is Satan in eph 2:2

eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them...

#1 them... children of disobedience
#2 you ... children of light vs eph 5:8

Why do you think that "if we align with satan's children, we'll still be saved"?

believers sinning ... wow
thus the reason for 1 jn 1:8-10

How can "have not God", still be saved?

Matt 7:21-23 states moral men going to Hell

No it doesn't --- He clearly says "you practice wickedness".

2 Cor 11:13-15 moral unsaved men righteous in the eye of this world ... going to be judge by their works

connect to rev 20:11-15 where the dead will also be judged by their works

And those who are "preaching another gospel" (apart from Christ), will perish.

depend on their hope ... and God nows...

Jesus is their hope --- 1Tim1:1. THey either belong to Him, or they belong to satan.

the corthinians were carnal ... 1 cor 3:1-3 but in 1 cor 1:2 Paul calls the set apart[holy] by Gods work not their's

In ever case where he rebukes carnality, it's salvation-busting.

God knows who are the overcomers 1 jn 5:4-5

Only HE has overcome the world; please read 1Jn4:4, and John16:33: "You are of God, and have overcome them; greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world. I have overcome the world."

explain romans 13:11, 1 thes 5:1-10

No explanation is needed. We are not of the darkness, but of the light; therefore let us not sleep as those will who will be left out --- if we are awake and ready when He returns, we shall live.

If not, we won't.

practice sin is a life time of doing the sin

No; the first sin, is a choice --- the second sin that happens WITHOUT repentance from the first, is practicing.

so explain why 2 cor 11:13-15 and matt 7:21-23 why moral people go to HELL

ALready did. 2Cor people are "preaching false gospel" (not Jesus), and Matt7:23 people are "practicing wickedness".

call positional truth... 1 cor 12:12-13

Doesn't apply; there are different members of the body.

young men have learned to abide ... 1 jn 2:12-14... degrees of maturity

children have not!

Please read Heb5:11-6:6 about those who refuse to mature.

funny how the blood cover the sins from lambs and Christ is the Lamb that cover our sins till we see His face

Look at those in James5:19-20; when they wandered away from the truth, their sins were no longer covered.

Ben said:
Ben said:

Do you remember how those who SEEK glory/honor/righteousness receive eternal life, but those who SEEK selfish ambition and unrighteousness receive God's wrath? Rom2:6-8.
Right --- by destroying sinfulness. Those who belong to Christ, do not walk in sin. 1Jn1:6-7
You can't do that; Rom7 speaks about the "war between the two natures" --- where Paul, striving to serve God, finds himself doing the very sin he did not want to do. He cries out in anguish, "Who will SAVE me from this war?" And then Paul answers the question, in chapter 8; we walk NOT in sin (if we do we must die!!!) --- but if by the Spirit we put to DEATH sinful flesh (that means "do not dwell in sin"), we will live.
How long is a season? Please review Luke15:13, and ONLY verse 13 --- at that moment, is the "Prodigal Son", saved? (If he had died right then, would he have gone to Heaven?)
Do you assert that "children of the devil", are still "saved"?

Click to expand...

waiting a response

Wait --- were you waiting for a response from me, or was I waiting a response from you over this last quote of mine?

A Brother In Christ · Mar 5, 2008

Matt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the self righteous, but sinners .

romans 4:5

Ben johnson · Mar 5, 2008

Behe said:
I can certainly understand how you find it supported in scripture. But these scriptures do not explain how it is even possible for a person's heart to change to even be able to have faith. There are scriptures that do and I for the life of me can't understand how those go ignored or constantly get distorted to mean something else.

What Scriptures?

I read Jesus' words in John12:32, and perceive that He does "draw all men to Himself". His call to salvation has sufficient power to overcome our depravity, in enough measure that we CAN believe.

The existence of a "Final Judgment", has to reflect "personal choice"; God would never judge and condemn men who had no choice. As Paul writes, "God is just and justifier of he who believes."

I just don't believe scripture trumps scripture - it all fits together like a majestic puzzle - that responsible grace simply cannot put together the pieces.

I've found perfect harmony with RG.

"RT", is really founded on only about three passages; Eph1:4-5, Rom9:11-21, and Rom8:28-29.

Other passages, like Ezk33:26-27, which says "I will give them new hearts, remove their stone-hearts and give flesh-hearts, and I will be their God and they will be My people" --- is explained with 11:18-21; they turn to God first, away from abominations, and THEN receive new hearts. But not all turn; those who CONTINUE after abominations, are in trouble.

Jesus is returning soon; when He does, we will meet Him in the clouds. There will be people there, in the clouds, who hold to "Responsible Grace". AND there will be people there who hold to Calvinism.

My great concern, is the time just before He returns. There will be a Great Tribulation, such as the world has never seen.

Many believers will find themselves in that Tribulation; some, thinking they should have been "Pre-Trib-Raptured", and thinking "salvation can never become forfeit", will feel betrayed.

...and fall...

"The Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons."

All who are reading this --- if you do not accept what I've been teaching, it's OK with me. But commit it to memory, so that if-and-when you find yourselves in the exact position I just warned, something discussed here will come back to you, and you will abide in Him.

I don't CARE if you're "Calvinist", or "Responble-Grace"; or "Catholic", or "Protestant"; or "Traditional" or "Charismatic". I want you to be with us in the clouds, when Jesus returns.

...with all my heart...

A Brother In Christ · Mar 5, 2008

Ben johnson said:
Why do you think that "if we align with satan's children, we'll still be saved"?

wheat and tares look alike except when one opens them up....

Click to expand...

How can "have not God", still be saved?

verses?

No it doesn't --- He clearly says "you practice wickedness".
And those who are "preaching another gospel" (apart from Christ), will perish.

But they where moral and having a form of righteousness of the world.... and going to Hell .. 2 cor 11:13-15 just as Satan is an angel of light .... not darkness ... morally copy cats are his sons

Jesus is their hope --- 1Tim1:1. THey either belong to Him, or they belong to satan.
In ever case where he rebukes carnality, it's salvation-busting. Only HE has overcome the world; please read 1Jn4:4, and John16:33: "You are of God, and have overcome them; greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world. I have overcome the world."

Jesus Christ overcame.... how long does a child learn? right away or stages

No explanation is needed. We are not of the darkness, but of the light; therefore let us not sleep as those will who will be left out --- if we are awake and ready when He returns, we shall live.

please quote scripture then show your quotes underneath please... romans 13:11, 1 thes 5:1-10

If not, we won't.
No; the first sin, is a choice --- the second sin that happens WITHOUT repentance from the first, is practicing.
ALready did. 2Cor people are "preaching false gospel" (not Jesus), and Matt7:23 people are "practicing wickedness". Doesn't apply; there are different members of the body. Please read Heb5:11-6:6 about those who refuse to mature.

still saved ... but like a millionaire out on the streets if one does not access his riches ... one can live a beggars life

Look at those in James5:19-20; when they wandered away from the truth, their sins were no longer covered. Wait --- were you waiting for a response from me, or was I waiting a response from you over this last quote of mine?

waiting for a scripture and your interptation

Ben johnson · Mar 5, 2008

ABIC said:
Matt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the self righteous, but sinners .

He calls the sinners, to Himself --- and to righteousness.

"God made Him who knew no sin, to be sin on our behalf; that through Him we may become the righteousness of God." 2Cor5:21

A Brother In Christ · Mar 6, 2008

Ben johnson said:
He calls the sinners, to Himself --- and to righteousness.

"God made Him who knew no sin, to be sin on our behalf; that through Him we may become the righteousness of God." 2Cor5:21

1jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.

Ormly · Mar 6, 2008

A Brother In Christ said:
Matt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the self righteous, but sinners .

romans 4:5

Don't add words to the passage. "self" is nowhere found in it.

A Brother In Christ · Mar 6, 2008

Ormly said:
Don't add words to the passage. "self" is nowhere found in it.

so is it God's righteousness or self righteousness...

in the greek it states this....

Ormly · Mar 6, 2008

A Brother In Christ said:
so is it God's righteousness or self righteousness...

in the greek it states this....

Righteousness from man, pleasing to God that allows God to call him "blameless".

"Noah was a righteous man, blameless among his contemporaries; Noah walked with God."
Genesis 6:9

yashualover · Mar 6, 2008

Ben johnson said:
I'm aware of the view that,
"man is too corrupt to ever consider believing, therefore must be regenerated (made alive) first and then (and only then) he CAN believe."

Question --- how many times does God "save us by grace"? Once. Do you agree?

So, in Eph2:5, when he writes parenthetically "(by grace have you been saved)", and then in verse 8 he states "By grace have you been saved through faith", it establishes that "through faith" also applies to verse 5.

With me?

Now --- please read verse 5, with this established understanding:
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace [through faith] you have been saved)..."

Do you accept that "made alive" is "through faith", and happened "WHEN we were dead in sins"?

This establishes that a "dead-in-sins man can have saving-faith". And no verse can overturn it.

Other verses have been tried; 1Cor2:14 for instance --- yet when read with verse 12, the "spiritual things" of verse 14 (that the natural man cannot understand), are revealed by the RECEIVED Spirit in verse 12.

1. RECEIVED Spirit (belief!)
2. Spiritual things revealed (verse 12)
3. Natural man cannot understand spiritual things, because he has not received the Spirit.

The "things" of verse 14, are the same "things" as in verse 12, and clearly does not include "saving belief in Christ" (which is how the Spirit is received).

As I said, no verse asserts "spiritually-dead-in-sins-man cannot believe savingly in Christ". If you think this untrue, what verse?

No matter how many views, Yahveh is sovereign and has already chosen who He will be graceful to before the earth existed.

Eph 1:1 From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by God's will, to his holy and faithful people in Ephesus who are in union with Christ Jesus.
Eph 1:2 May grace and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ be yours!
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! He has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realm,
Eph 1:4 just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in his presence. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself through Jesus Christ, according to the pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 so that we would praise his glorious grace that he gave us in the Beloved One.
Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our offenses, according to the riches of God's grace

A Brother In Christ · Mar 6, 2008

Ormly said:
Righteousness from man, pleasing to God that allows God to call him "blameless".

"Noah was a righteous man, blameless among his contemporaries; Noah walked with God."
Genesis 6:9

ministers of righteousness .. 2 cor 11:15

what kind romans 10:3 their own

Ormly · Mar 6, 2008

A Brother In Christ said:
ministers of righteousness .. 2 cor 11:15

what kind romans 10:3 their own

Stick with Noah. Was he are not, righteous??? Explain him away if you can, then I'll give you 25 more in the OT to do the same with..

Gal328 · Mar 6, 2008

Noting this thread.

A Brother In Christ · Mar 6, 2008

A Brother In Christ said:
Matt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the self righteous, but sinners .

romans 4:5

Ormly said:
Don't add words to the passage. "self" is nowhere found in it.

A Brother In Christ said:
so is it God's righteousness or self righteousness...

in the greek it states this....

Ormly said:
Righteousness from man, pleasing to God that allows God to call him "blameless".

"Noah was a righteous man, blameless among his contemporaries; Noah walked with God."
Genesis 6:9

A Brother In Christ said:
ministers of righteousness .. 2 cor 11:15

what kind romans 10:3 their own

Ormly said:
Stick with Noah. Was he are not, righteous??? Explain him away if you can, then I'll give you 25 more in the OT to do the same with..

GEN 6 ... READ FOR YOURSELF

ido not have a bible at this time...

but what is your point in trying to railroad the subject at hand

A Brother In Christ · Mar 6, 2008

Ben johnson said:
No; the first sin, is a choice --- the second sin that happens WITHOUT repentance from the first, is practicing.

matt 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said Lord, How often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? seven times?

matt 18:22 Jesus said unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but until seventy times seven.

how many times will God forgive without asking.... wow

nobdysfool · Mar 6, 2008

Ben said:
the first sin, is a choice --- the second sin that happens WITHOUT repentance from the first, is practicing.

Since according to you, anyone practicing sin is not saved, how many times now have you been saved? How many times have you lost your salvation? How many times have you practiced sin?

Ormly · Mar 7, 2008

A Brother In Christ said:
GEN 6 ... READ FOR YOURSELF

ido not have a bible at this time...

but what is your point in trying to railroad the subject at hand

If the train is traveling with only one wheel on the track it will never start to get to where it is intended to go.

Ormly · Mar 7, 2008

A Brother In Christ said:
matt 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said Lord, How often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? seven times?

matt 18:22 Jesus said unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but until seventy times seven.

how many times will God forgive without asking.... wow

What do you mean, "without asking"? Where is "not asking" for forgiveness implied?

Ormly · Mar 7, 2008

nobdysfool said:
Since according to you, anyone practicing sin is not saved, how many times now have you been saved? How many times have you lost your salvation? How many times have you practiced sin?
[/b]

Since according to you, anyone practicing sin is not born again, how many times now have you been born again? . . . . . makes more sense.

Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

Do you believe in the doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved?

No, I don't believe in the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved.

Yes, I do believe in the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved.

Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men

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