POLL: Did the ancient Hebrews believe that the earth was flat?

[RC Tent]

Plenty of words in the Bible that attest to this but you want to ignore them.

I can select words from the Bible in order to support the idea that as a Christian you believe that cannibalism is ordered by God, and that cutting your own body to pieces is an essential response to compensate for wrong behaviour. I choose not to do that.

You are absolutely right to think that I don't accept attempts to ridicule the minds of the people who laid down and preserved the knowledge we now can derive from the Bible - I think there is an obvious mistake in regarding the people who were smart enough to secure that supremely important information for future generations as though they were obviously really thick.

 

[FEZZILLA]

I can select words from the Bible in order to support the idea that as a Christian you believe that cannibalism is ordered by God, and that cutting your own body to pieces is an essential response to compensate for wrong behaviour. I choose not to do that.

You are absolutely right to think that I don't accept attempts to ridicule the minds of the people who laid down and preserved the knowledge we now can derive from the Bible - I think there is an obvious mistake in regarding the people who were smart enough to secure that supremely important information for future generations as though they were obviously really thick.

Do you understand the Torah? Have you attentively read it all through? For there are no passages in the Torah or the Gospel that command cannibalism. If the Bible taught cannibalism then we would see Christians throughout the centuries eating everybody. Since Christianity is the world's most accepted religion, Christians would have ate all disbelievers by now

 

[RC Tent]

Do you understand the Torah? Have you attentively read it all through? For there are no passages in the Torah or the Gospel that command cannibalism. If the Bible taught cannibalism then we would see Christians throughout the centuries eating everybody. Since Christianity is the world's most accepted religion, Christians would have ate all disbelievers by now

Did you read my post? You seem to have missed the part where in terms of wildly misrepresenting Christianity by selecting words to support a bizarre idea it says - "I choose not to."

I quite agree with you that Christians are not cannibals, but the wrong idea that they are can be supported by selectively quoting the Bible...if we as Christians do not want people to do that to us, then I think we should not be willing to do it to the Ancient Hebrews. That is why I want to see something that supports the accusation that they believed the world was flat, and under a solid dome, apart from words in the Bible.

A few words and an assumption about the superiority of modern minds is not evidence.

By the way, did you see the part in my post where I referred to the Bible as "supremely important information"? It is in the second paragraph.

 

[FEZZILLA]

Did you read my post? You seem to have missed the part where in terms of wildly misrepresenting Christianity by selecting words to support a bizarre idea it says - "I choose not to."

I quite agree with you that Christians are not cannibals, but the wrong idea that they are can be supported by selectively quoting the Bible...if we as Christians do not want people to do that to us, then I think we should not be willing to do it to the Ancient Hebrews. That is why I want to see something that supports the accusation that they believed the world was flat, and under a solid dome, apart from words in the Bible.

A few words and an assumption about the superiority of modern minds is not evidence.

By the way, did you see the part in my post where I referred to the Bible as "supremely important information"? It is in the second paragraph.

Apart from Scripture there are reputable ancient sources that speak of Scripture such as Jewish historian Josephus, Clement of Rome, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Bishop Ambrose, St.Augustine, Jerome and others who all read globe earth from Scripture. There is no flat earth tradition in Christianity and this is because the Bible doesn't teach flat earth. Flat earthers only quote from their 21st century sources which are all rejected by the entire Christian faith & the Apostolic Succession. Flat earth has no root in Christianity.

 

[RC Tent]

Thank you, that is what I thought.

 

[JackRT]

Revelation 7:1And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

A sphere has no corners.

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Impossible on a sphere but possible on a flat earth.

When the early church lost its Jewish roots and became a Greek speaking Gentile church they absorbed the Greek world view and cosmology.

Both as a Christian and as a scientist, it is obvious to me that the Biblical cosmology was of a flat earth.

 

[FEZZILLA]

Revelation 7:1And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

A sphere has no corners.

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Impossible on a sphere but possible on a flat earth.

When the early church lost its Jewish roots and became a Greek speaking Gentile church they absorbed the Greek world view and cosmology.

Both as a Christian and as a scientist, it is obvious to me that the Biblical cosmology was of a flat earth.

Revelation 7:1 -- "four corners of the earth."

What makes the flat earth movement an obvious atheist movement is their complete inability to understand Scripture. A good example is how they interpret Revelation 7:1 to mean flat earth. However, this flat earth interpretation contradicts their flat circle view of Scripture when they interpret Rev.7:1 to mean a flat square earth. This is classic atheistic skepticism -- "Can God create a square circle" -- and atheists consider this evidence for evolution

_______________________________________________________________
Revelation 7:1

"And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."

Flat earthers read this verse absolutely literally. The Book of Revelation is a Book of prophecy which contains lots of symbolism and figurative expressions for the purpose of explaining much deeper spiritual events which will take place in the last days. Hence, Revelation is not meant to be understood so literally as flat earthers read it.

The "four corners of the earth" is an expression which means "the extremities of the earth" in all cardinal directions (north, east, south, west -- the four points of a compass). Revelation 7:1 also alludes to the four spirits of heaven as mentioned in Zechariah 6:5,

"And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth."

Believer's Bible Commentary -- Rev.7:1-4,

"7:1-4 The vision of the four angels standing at the four corners of the earth and holding back the four winds means that a great storm is about to burst on the world. However, the angels are told to delay this terrible destruction until the servants of God have been sealed on their foreheads. Twelve thousand persons from each of the twelve tribes of Israel are sealed."

The passage is figurative because capturing deep spiritual revelation is hard to put down in any common language. Thus the four winds are the winds of change which will bring about a terrible destruction upon the earth and in all four quarters of the earth. But God delays this coming storm of disaster by holding back the winds of change -- which are also not to be understood as literal winds.

And again we see "the four corners of the earth" in Isaiah 11:12,

"And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

The word "corners" is Strong's H3671 כָּנָף kânâph, which is also used in Isaiah 24:16,

"From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously."

In this verse the expression is defined as "the extremities of the earth" according to the Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon. But kânâph is not just used in context of the entire globe. It is also used to express a regional area as further expressed in Ezekiel 7:2,

"Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land."

It is very clear by reading the verse that kânâph is used as an expression for all four directions and not a reference to the shape of the earth itself. The Bible uses many expressions which are meant to be understood from a deeper spiritual perspective and not from a literal or scientific expression.

The Greek word used in Rev.7:1 is Strong's G1137 γωνία gōnía. Thayer's Greek Lexicon defines it as "the four extreme limits of the earth, Revelation 7:1; Revelation 20:8."

Rev.20:8 says,

"And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

Once again γωνία (gōnía) is used to express the far reaches of the earth in all four quarters (i.e., directions). It is not saying the earth is flat.

______________________________________________________________
Common Sense

From the 1st century on up to the present now, Christian leaders have always taught globe earth. But why would the early church fathers teach globe earth from the Bible if Scripture says its flat? The Bible does not teach flat earth and if it did you better believe the early church fathers would have left for us a flat earth tradition. But they didn't. They didn't because Scripture teaches globe earth. Rev.7:1 is an expression which was never intended to describe the literal shape of the earth. The early church fathers were not Godless men, but had a very strong knowledge of Scripture which is why they were chosen by the Apostles to teach the Gospel after they were gone. So they knew about verses such as Isaiah 40:22 -- "the circle of the earth." So why would the Apostle John contradict Isaiah? He wouldn't and he didn't.

Verses like Isaiah 40:22 are about the shape of the earth. Rev.7:1 is not about the shape of the earth. Whenever the Bible speaks about the shape of the earth its in context with God's creation and dominion over the earth and its inhabitants. Rev.7:1 simply expresses the extremities of the earth.

 

[RC Tent]

Both as a Christian and as a scientist, it is obvious to me that the Biblical cosmology was of a flat earth.

So is it as a Christian, or as a scientist that you find it acceptable to extract a quote from a prophetic work, clearly not intended as a presentation of scientific fact, and cite that as proof of the writer's scientific comprehension ? Do you treat all attempts at self expression as though they should be marked as science exam papers ?

Is it science or your faith that inspires you to ignore the intent, purpose and style of a book in the Bible when you are quoting it to make a point?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Why would God tell a lie? The earth is a sphere which is clearly taught in Scripture. Why would Proverbs 8:27 say the earth is flat while Proverbs 8:31 says its a globe?

"As for the rounde compase of his worlde, I make it ioyfull: for my delyte is to be among the chyldren of men" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

The word is Strong's H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl which means "the habitable globe."

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
View attachment 250126

Here is 4th century Bishop Ambrose reading from Isaiah 40:22.

"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).

So why would chuwg mean flat earth in Proverbs 8:27 but globe in Isaiah 40:22?

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
View attachment 250127




The "ends of the earth" is an ancient expression which means the far reaches of the earth and its extremities. Jeremiah 51:15 says the earth is a globe and contextually reads the same as Isaiah 40:22.

"Yea euen the Lorde of hostes, that wyth his power made the earthe, with hys wysedome prepared the rounde worlde, and with his discrecyon spred oute the heauens" (1537 Matthew's Bible).



"He reyseth vp the poore out of the duste, and lyfteth vp the begger from the dong hill: to set them among princes, and to enheret them with the seate of glory. For the pyllers of the earth are the Lordes, and he hath set the rounde worlde vpon them" (1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible).

"Raising up the weak from the dust, he will raise up the needy from the dung-hill to sit with the noble, and he will cause them to inherit a throne of glory, for to Jehovah the castings of the earth, and he will put the habitable globe upon them" (1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

Here again the word tebel is used which means "the habitable globe." The pillars of the earth in this verse means saints.

"And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen" (Revelation 1:6).




Job 26:7 נטה צפון על תהו תלה ארץ על בלי מה׃

"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing" (KJV).

Corpus of Translations:

"Which God stretchith forth the north on voide thing, and hangith the erthe on nouyt" (1382 Wycliffe Bible).

"He stretcheth out ye north ouer the emptie, & hageth ye earth vpo nothinge" (1535 Coverdale Bible).

"He stretched oute the north ouer the emptie, & hangeth the earth vpon nothinge" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

"He stretcheth out the north ouer the emptie, and hangeth the earth vpon nothing" (1539 Great Bible).

"He stretcheth out the noorth ouer the emptie place, and hangeth the earth vpon nothing" (1568 Bishop's Bible).

"He stretches out the North over empty space,
and suspends the earth over nothing at all" (NAB).

"He stretches out the north over the void
and hangs the earth on nothing" (ESV).

"He stretched out the north over the empty space, and hangeth the earth upon nothing" (Douay-Rheims Bible).

"He stretches out the north over empty space
And hangs the earth on nothing" (NASB).

"He stretches out the north over empty space,
He hangs the earth upon nothing" (MEV).

"He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;
he suspends the earth over nothing" (NIV).

"He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing" (NKJV).

"God stretches the northern sky over empty space
and hangs the earth on nothing" (NLT).

"He stretches out the north over the void,
and hangs the earth upon nothing" (RSV).

"Stretching out the north over desolation, Hanging the earth upon nothing" (YLT).

"He stretches the north over chaos
and suspends the earth on nothing" (Complete Jewish Bible).
=================================================
Hebrew Lexicons:

The word "hangeth" found in the KJV is the Hebrew word תָּלָה.

The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

"H8518. תָּלָה tâlâh, taw-law'; a primitive root; to suspend (especially to gibbet):—hang [25x], hang up [3x]. See: TWOT -- 2512; BDB -- 1067d"

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament:

TWOT: "2512 תָּלָה (tâlâh) hang. (ASV and RSV similar.)
". . . The verb means basically "to hand," whether a utensil on a peg (Isa 22:24; Ezk 15:3), weapons on a wall ((Ezk 27:10f., both Piel: Song 4:4), or a lyre on a tree (Ps 137:2). Job 26:7 strikingly pictures the then-known world as suspended in space, thereby anticipating future scientific discovery, when it states that God "hangs the earth upon nothing." Other (more grisly) examples of the verb may be seen in Lam 5:12 (Niphal); 11 Sam 4:12; 18:10."

New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Vol.4: תָּלָה (tlh), hang (#9434),

". . . 5. Hanging or suspending other objects. These include harps, which are hung on poplars by the disconsolate exiles (Ps 137:2), a variety of things that can be hung on a wooden peg (yated, --> # 3845; Ezk 15:3), and the earth, which is hung by God "over nothing" (Job 26:7).

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
View attachment 250128
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Bible Commentaries On Job 26:7

Believer's Bible Commentary:

"26:5-13 The rest of the chapter gives a marvelous description of God's power in the universe: the evaporation/precipitation cycle; the density of the clouds; the cycle of light and darkness; the storm at sea; and the stars and constellations by which His Spirit has adorned the heavens.
While Bildad stressed God's glory in the heavens, Job here dwells on His power in the depths: under the waters, Sheol, and Destruction.
Job desccribes--centuries before science taught it--that God hangs the earth on nothing (which is a poetic depiction of the earth's position and movement in the solar system).
How immeasurably above the cosmogonies of the heathen philosophers are these few grand words! In them we have as in germ the discoveries of a Newton and a Keppler. It is a great mistake to think Scripture does not teach scientific truth. It teaches all needed truth, even if not in scientific language. yet with scientific accuracy" [Ridout, Job, pp.133, 134].

Jamieson, Fausset & Brown Commentary on the Whole Bible,

"7. Hint of the true theory of the earth. Its suspension in empty space is stated in the second clause. The north in particular is specified in the first, being believed to be the highest part of the earth ( Isaiah 14:13 ). The northern hemisphere or vault of heaven is included; often compared to a stretched-out canopy ( Psalms 104:2 ). The chambers of the south are mentioned ( Job 9:9 ), that is, the southern hemisphere, consistently with the earth's globular form."

Matthew Henry's Commentary,

"(1.) He hangs the earth upon nothing, v. 7. The vast terraqueous globe neither rests upon any pillars nor hangs upon any axle-tree, and yet, by the almighty power of God, is firmly fixed in its place, poised with its own weight. The art of man could not hang a feather upon nothing, yet the divine wisdom hangs the whole earth so. It is ponderibus librata suis—poised by its own weight, so says the poet; it is upheld by the word of God’s power, so says the apostle. What is hung upon nothing may serve us to set our feet on, and bear the weight of our bodies, but it will never serve us to set our hearts on, nor bear the weight of our souls."

The Expositor's Bible Commentary (Abridged Edition),

“7-8 The word “skies” is a justifiable insertion in v.7. Although Saphon means “north” (GK 7600), the verb “spreads out” is never used of the earth but if often used in reference to the heavens (cf.9:8). This imagery is continued by the words “over empty space.” It is not difficult to postulate what “empty space” might be intended by Job if he were referring to a northern region of the earth where the majestic mountains rise.
Job was pointing to God’s power as incomprehensible. The heavens are visible yet, they do not fall to earth; there is no visible means of support. Even the earth itself can be said to hang on nothing. That God spread out the heavens over empty space, hang the earth on nothing, and fill the clouds with water without bursting is intended to make us stand in awe. Job was boldly expressing in poetic terms the marvelous and majestic power of God.”

Ancient Christian Commentary On Scripture: Old Testament XI -- Job,

"26:7-9 God Suspends the World on Nothing
Rain Useful To The Whole Created Order. Olympiodorus [ the Deacon ]: "He stretches out the north wind upon nothing, and he upon nothing hangs the earth." Indeed the support of the earth is nothing but an understructure, but it is suspended and is sustained by Divine will. . . . " (brackets mine).
================================================
† St.Ambrose (340 – 397),

Here is a lengthy quote which answers criticism from flat earthers. Ambrose quotes from Job 26:7 as well as explains it when he says "Let others hold approvingly that the earth never will fall, because it keeps its position in the midst of the world in accordance with nature."

"“How the disposition of the earth therefore depends upon the power of God, you may learn also where it is written: ‘He looketh upon the earth and maketh it tremble,’ and elsewhere: ‘One again I move the earth.’ Therefore, the earth remains immovable not by its balances, but is moved frequently by the nod and free will of God, as Job, too, says: ‘The Lord shaketh it from its foundations, and the pillars thereof tremble.’ And elsewhere: ‘Hell is naked before him and there is no covering for death. He stretched out the north over the empty space and hangeth the earth upon nothing. He bindeth up the waters in his clouds. The pillars of heaven fled away and are in dread at his rebuke. By his power the seas are calmed, by his wisdom is struck down the sea-monster, and the gates of heaven fear him.’
By the will of God, therefore, the earth remains immovable. ‘The earth standeth for ever,’ according to Ecclesiastes, yet is moved and nods according to the will of God. It does not therefore continue to exist because based on its own foundation. It does not stay stable because based on its own props. The Lord established it by the support of His will, because ‘in his hand are all the ends of the earth.’ The simplicity of this faith is worth all the proffered proofs.
Let others hold approvingly that the earth never will fall, because it keeps its position in the midst of the world in accordance with nature. They maintain that it is from necessity that the earth remains in its place and is not inclined in another direction, as long as it does not move contrary to nature but in accordance with it. Let them take occasion to magnify the excellence of their divine Artist and eternal Craftsman. What artist is not indebted to Him? ‘Who gave to women the knowledge of weaving or the understanding of embroidery?’ However, I who am unable to comprehend the excellence of His majesty and His art do not entrust myself to theoretical weights and measures. Rather, I believe that all things depend on His will, which is the foundation of the universe and because of which the world endures up to the present” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron," The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, pp.22-23).

Ambrose is saying that the earth will not fall or move out or away from the laws God ordained for it.

So let there be no mistake, Ambrose knows the earth is a globe and that it is suspended in space over nothing. The earth is said to be held up by God's will. Clement of Rome also says this:

“Thus, by His transcendent might He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible understanding He ordered them: the earth He separated from the water now encircling it, and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will” (33:3).

The waters are encircling the earth and its foundation is grounded on God's will, which means the earth is held up by nothing other than God's will. God's will being the laws He ordained for it.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Sir FEZZILLA,
Excellent scholarship!
Just looking for something I had formerly posted and found your hands down, best replies to the flat earthers.
Do you know R. Sungenis?

 

[Job 33:6]

If you don't have the technology or methods to determine that earth is round, a flat earth really is the more "common sense" approach because earth is so large that it naturally looks flat.

So the ancients would have believed earth was flat until otherwise discovered.

 

[SkyWriting]

A common view in ancient Mesopotamia was that the earth was flat. Abraham came from Ur, a major Sumerian city, before settling in Canaan. The Sumerians and Babylonians ruled in 2000-600 BC, when Moses and many other Biblical writers lived.

Sumerians and Babylonians

The Sumerians and Babylonians are considered some of the most advanced in their era in geology and cosmology:


Sumerian: Science & Technology

The American Federation of Teachers website explains that the Sumerians thought that the world was flat:

Babylonian map of earth




Cosmology: Did the ancient Sumerians know about our “solar system?”

"In this primeval sea was somehow engendered the universe the 'heaven-earth,' consisting of a vaulted heaven superimposed over a flat earth and united with it." (Kramer, Samuel Noah. History Begins at Sumer. Garden City: Doubleday Anchor Books, 1959. Pp 76-84.)

"... a vaulted heaven superimposed over a flat earth and united with it..." (Kramer, Samuel Noah. The Sacred Marriage Rite: Aspects of Faith, Myth, and Ritual in Ancient Sumer. Indiana University Press, Bloomington, 1969.


Was There Ever A Flat Earth Consensus? | National Center for Science Education

This of course is not to say that automatically the Hebrews would accept all the beliefs of their neighbors. Their main difference, however, was in theology and religion rather than science. Major differences included Torah observance and their rejection of idols and of worship of other gods. Even in this area they were not always so different- Egyptians practiced circumcision and some Egyptians like Akhenaton were monotheists, while other Egyptians proposed that the gods were just faces or aspects of the one true God. Even in the Bible there are cases where Egyptians acknowledge God.

Thus, when it came to science, it might not be a surprise if they believed the other scientific teachings of the academics of their era.

Below are some verses that agree with belief in a flat earth:

The earth's circle
A circle (hug) is flat, a ball(dur) is round. eg. Isaiah 22:18 uses the word ball (dur).

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle (hug) of the earth,

Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass (hug) upon the face of the depth:

The earth's ends
Job 37:3 He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.

Job 37:33 He unleashes his lightning beneath the whole heaven and sends it to the ends of the earth.

Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth

Isaiah 43:6 I'll say to the north, 'Give them up'! and to the south, 'Don't keep them back!' Bring my sons from far away and my daughters from the ends of the earth

Jeremiah 51:16 He brings up the mist from the ends of the earth

Zechariah 9:10 And He will speak peace to the nations; And His dominion will be from sea to sea, And from the River to the ends of the earth.

The East and the West at the opposite ends of the earth
Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far has he put our offences from us.

Seeing all the earth's land from a single point in space
Job 28:24 For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;

Daniel 4:10-11 [The king] saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds.

Matthew 4:8 “Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory.”

The earth's corners
One explanation has been that "corners" is a designation for directions.
Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

The earth's foundations
Job 9:6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof

1 Samuel 2:8 for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he hath set the world upon them.

2 Samuel 22:16 And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered

Psalm 104:5 Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.

The earth's stretching out
Something that is stretched out is flat.

Psalm 136:6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Stretching a line across the eartth, rather than around it
Job 38:44 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?

The earth's stretching over nothing
Something that is suspended over nothing would have an underside.
Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing [beliymah].

The earth's form is like clay under a seal.
A seal is a two dimensional object that stamps another two dimensional one on clay.
Job 38:13-14
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it?
It takes on form like clay under a seal, And stands out like a garment.

Most people say the earth was formed pretty much as we see it now.
So generalizations can fall short. It depends on the question.

 

[Ragdoll]

No disrespect intended here. But this topic has been so well covered in multiple facebook pages and groups. In fact, flat earthers lost so bad in their efforts to prove the Bible taught flat earth that its rare to even see these debates on facebook anymore. I haven't seen any serious debates on this subject on facebook since like 2019-2020. Yet here I see many well debunked arguments that are no longer used by hardly anyone on facebook.

I follow lots of Christian apologetic pages and groups on facebook. These days the big topics are the general arguments for or against evolution theory or Biblical creation.

The first flaw in this flat earth argument is the presumption of race. Neither Moses or king David or Isaiah wrote "Thus saith the Hebrews" in the Bible. So the argument is not what the Hebrews believed because their beliefs do not always reflect on Biblical doctrine. If anyone here has read the entire Old Testament you will read about the Hebrews falling into idolatry many times. Even king Solomon fell into idolatry. So idolatry is well documented in the Bible. But idolatry was not God's will for the Hebrews. Therefore, any possible flat earth beliefs the Hebrews may have had do not reflect on the Biblical teaching.

As far as ancient witnesses go, there are none who read flat earth from the Bible. All the ancient Jews and Christians I have read all agreed the Bible teaches a spherical earth that moves in a circle. That's what chuwg in Isaiah 40:22 actually means. It means "Circle, Compass, Circuit." This describes a round/circular earth with a circumference that moves in a circle. It does not mean flat.

And duwr does not just mean ball. It also means "Circle." Yes, it also can mean globe. duwr does not describe what a sphere is? The Hebrew word chuwg is the geometric description of a sphere.

There are many arguments but all of them have been well answered by those scholars who did their homework very well. I personally am fortunate to know some of these scholars. I've followed their work on this topic and others on facebook. There is a whole lot more to all this that people don't understand. I still can't believe I learned all this. But at the time the flat earth movement was everywhere so I naturally took to liberty to investigate the claims being made by all these flat earthers all over facebook. Though today it's very rare that the subject even takes places. This is mainly because the flat earthers lost their arguments to great known facts. Its all very interesting.

Now I was checking out the topic on this forum about the Documentary Hypothesis. The flat earth movement takes a similar yet more subtle approach to that. Though the movement was far from honest. Most of them who claimed to be Christians turned out to be atheists or Gnostics pushing a political agenda through anarchy and chaos.

I gotta admit. When I first saw those flat earth arguments I was worried that my faith might be disproven. I definitely had to look into it and fortunately some of the scholars I know were masters on this topic and they dissected each of the arguments and answered them in such a way where the lessons were easy to follow and learn.

The Holy Bible is not the word according to the Hebrews. Its the word of God. Not all the Hebrews obeyed the word of God. The Bible teaches us about a spherical earth and does not teach about a flat earth or a half-sphere. People gotta see past some of these desperate arguments from atheists if they truly want to understand the Bible. I gotta say I just love reading and studying the Bible. I learn new things all the time. Fascinating things. I believe it is important for people to have productive Bible studies either in their churches or with a group a Bible scholars. Good scholars will always teach lessons in a way that is conclusive and easy to understand and follow.

 

[Ragdoll]

I was gonna ask why I can't vote on this poll but then I noticed that the poll closed in 2019! Wow! That's when the flat earth movement died on facebook! Anyway, sorry, I am new and did not know this topic was so old.

 

[Ragdoll]

FEZZILLA. Wow! Yes! This is the kind of scholarship I am used to seeing!! Fantastic job! I was worried that there was nobody here who knew how to properly teach this lesson, since there is so much theology, history, and etymology to this study. A massive body of theology here! But you got all this down really good!! Nice to see this forum has people like you who know how to properly defend Scripture against malicious attacks built on false arguments. Fortunately this topic seems to be old and outdate everywhere. So glad to see it go. But hey, there was never a dull movement during all the Bible studies I did with other scholars. Fascinating research here! God bless! Thank you for sharing all that with this forum

 

[Ragdoll]

Gransliseur. Real nice scholarship from you as well. I am also familiar with the scholarship that you and FEZZILLA have taught here. Nice job defending Scripture using proper theological arguments against false claims. I like this forum already Good reads guys!

 

[Job 33:6]

No disrespect intended here. But this topic has been so well covered in multiple facebook pages and groups. In fact, flat earthers lost so bad in their efforts to prove the Bible taught flat earth that its rare to even see these debates on facebook anymore. I haven't seen any serious debates on this subject on facebook since like 2019-2020. Yet here I see many well debunked arguments that are no longer used by hardly anyone on facebook.

I follow lots of Christian apologetic pages and groups on facebook. These days the big topics are the general arguments for or against evolution theory or Biblical creation.

The first flaw in this flat earth argument is the presumption of race. Neither Moses or king David or Isaiah wrote "Thus saith the Hebrews" in the Bible. So the argument is not what the Hebrews believed because their beliefs do not always reflect on Biblical doctrine. If anyone here has read the entire Old Testament you will read about the Hebrews falling into idolatry many times. Even king Solomon fell into idolatry. So idolatry is well documented in the Bible. But idolatry was not God's will for the Hebrews. Therefore, any possible flat earth beliefs the Hebrews may have had do not reflect on the Biblical teaching.

As far as ancient witnesses go, there are none who read flat earth from the Bible. All the ancient Jews and Christians I have read all agreed the Bible teaches a spherical earth that moves in a circle. That's what chuwg in Isaiah 40:22 actually means. It means "Circle, Compass, Circuit." This describes a round/circular earth with a circumference that moves in a circle. It does not mean flat.

And duwr does not just mean ball. It also means "Circle." Yes, it also can mean globe. duwr does not describe what a sphere is? The Hebrew word chuwg is the geometric description of a sphere.

There are many arguments but all of them have been well answered by those scholars who did their homework very well. I personally am fortunate to know some of these scholars. I've followed their work on this topic and others on facebook. There is a whole lot more to all this that people don't understand. I still can't believe I learned all this. But at the time the flat earth movement was everywhere so I naturally took to liberty to investigate the claims being made by all these flat earthers all over facebook. Though today it's very rare that the subject even takes places. This is mainly because the flat earthers lost their arguments to great known facts. Its all very interesting.

Now I was checking out the topic on this forum about the Documentary Hypothesis. The flat earth movement takes a similar yet more subtle approach to that. Though the movement was far from honest. Most of them who claimed to be Christians turned out to be atheists or Gnostics pushing a political agenda through anarchy and chaos.

I gotta admit. When I first saw those flat earth arguments I was worried that my faith might be disproven. I definitely had to look into it and fortunately some of the scholars I know were masters on this topic and they dissected each of the arguments and answered them in such a way where the lessons were easy to follow and learn.

The Holy Bible is not the word according to the Hebrews. Its the word of God. Not all the Hebrews obeyed the word of God. The Bible teaches us about a spherical earth and does not teach about a flat earth or a half-sphere. People gotta see past some of these desperate arguments from atheists if they truly want to understand the Bible. I gotta say I just love reading and studying the Bible. I learn new things all the time. Fascinating things. I believe it is important for people to have productive Bible studies either in their churches or with a group a Bible scholars. Good scholars will always teach lessons in a way that is conclusive and easy to understand and follow.

The reason I would say that the ancient Hebrews believed that earth was flat, is because they held a view consistent with other ancient cultures of the time, that which involved a solid dome with windows in it, in which birds flew across the face of, which was described with adjectives such as being like frozen water or ice, like sapphire, like pavement, and like molten metal throughout scripture. This solid domes windows restrained flood waters, opened during the flood, then closed and restrained the flood, all as described in scripture, and this done further had the stars placed "in" it, equidistant from earth so that they would move in a uniform fashion as if stuck in something solid.

That said, domes rest upon flat land. And such a thought doesn't reflect modern scientific understanding of heliocentrism and a spherical earth.


A link to Paul Seelys writings on the firmament:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...cQFnoECAsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw39YMhswlVVBzqeeJbEajXM

 

[Ragdoll]

The reason I would say that the ancient Hebrews believed that earth was flat, is because they held a view consistent with other ancient cultures of the time, that which involved a solid dome with windows in it, in which birds flew across the face of, which was described with adjectives such as being like frozen water or ice, like sapphire, like pavement, and like molten metal throughout scripture. This solid domes windows restrained flood waters, opened during the flood, then closed and restrained the flood, all as described in scripture, and this done further had the stars placed "in" it, equidistant from earth so that they would move in a uniform fashion as if stuck in something solid.

That said, domes rest upon flat land. And such a thought doesn't reflect modern scientific understanding of heliocentrism and a spherical earth.


A link to Paul Seelys writings on the firmament:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...cQFnoECAsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw39YMhswlVVBzqeeJbEajXM

View attachment 315463
View attachment 315464

The problem is that when you trust ANE theology you are being lied to. No such beliefs are found anywhere in the Bible. Anyone familiar with Paul Seely knows he is no theologian. As I mention in a previous post, I am used to great scholarship from friends I have on facebook. Many of these scholars have taken on the flat earth head on and refuted all of the lies. Even on this topic, I noticed there were at least two members here who correctly responded to those flat earth lies. That is true scholarship on their part. I have actually read Seely's article before and saw numerous assumptions, some of them were wild assumptions. But this whole flat earth movement was rooted in atheist assumptions to begin with.

Every Hebraist in the world agrees that raqiya means "expanse." That's what 100% of all real Hebrew scholars say. Now you have you pretend Hebrew scholars out saying otherwise. But then they get busted on simple Hebrew words like tebel which every Hebrew scholar knows means "the habitable globe." Then there is Job 26:7 which is clearly understood as meaning an earth suspended in space over nothing at all. A few verses later, in Job 26:10, we can read about the boundary of day and night which is caused by the earth's rotation. I think that was also brought up right here on this topic by another member.

The ANE assumes that all religions are the same and held the same beliefs. They assume the Hebrews borrowed from pagans which is absurd since paganism was not allowed in Israel. They have no desire to follow the pagan religions (even though many times they fell into idolatry). I snagged this meme off of facebook because it reveals where ANE assumptions came from.

This picture and others that follow it's assumption all come from the 20th century. They were liberal scholars who conjured this up and true scholarship respects traditional scholarship and exegesis. Modern liberal scholars have no respect for the Bible and literally make up their own theology which deviates from sound exegesis.

Now if you go on facebook you will notice that these allegations are shot down as fast as they are levelled. That's because the movement started on youtube and facebook and it died around 2019, no later than 2020. The only time I ever see anyone debating this topic is when an atheist tries to discredit the Bible by using these false claims. But these days those arguments do not last long at all.

I didn't read over this entire topic but I was also to read the last 2 or 3 pages of this discussion. I suggest reading the following posts since that is real good scholarship.

POLL: Did the ancient Hebrews believe that the earth was flat?

POLL: Did the ancient Hebrews believe that the earth was flat?

Fezzilla is right. One of the things he brought up in this topic is the Hebrew word tebel. He provided 4 Old Testament Hebrew lexicons proving that William Tyndale knew what he was doing. Another thing I would like to bring up here is that the Hebrew word tebel translates to oikoumene in Greek. This Greek word is very unique because one cannot say oikoumene without implying antipodes, and one cannot say antipodes without implying oikoumene. This is because of how the Greek concept of the globe works. They have the 5 zones to their globe and two of these zones were oikoumene (the inhabited part) and the antipodes (a part of the globe disputed as to whether or not it was inhabited). The antipodes are defined as people of opposite earth, or those who's feet walk beneath our feet. They really don't teach this topic anymore in the secular world which is why we have a flat earth movement today. The Bible used oikoumene in both Testaments. Another word that is interchangeable with oikoumene is kosmos which is a meaning that ranges from the universe, to the globe and the inhabitants thereof, and it also means people. Like all words, the context determines the meaning. Even in English we have words that carry broad definitions and are contextual in how they are applied. If, for example, I say, this is my world (referring to this forum), then I am merely saying that I am spending too much time on this forum lol! But if I say the world referring the to earth and all the inhabitants then I also say the world is a globe. You will find this definition in all English dictionaries. The Hebrew tebel and Greek oikoumene/kosmos are no different in their application. When applied to the whole earth along with the inhabitants it means globe.

This is the correct theology on the matter. The ANE theology is very sloppy and presumptuous.

 

[Job 33:6]

The problem is that when you trust ANE theology you are being lied to. No such beliefs are found anywhere in the Bible. Anyone familiar with Paul Seely knows he is no theologian. As I mention in a previous post, I am used to great scholarship from friends I have on facebook. Many of these scholars have taken on the flat earth head on and refuted all of the lies. Even on this topic, I noticed there were at least two members here who correctly responded to those flat earth lies. That is true scholarship on their part. I have actually read Seely's article before and saw numerous assumptions, some of them were wild assumptions. But this whole flat earth movement was rooted in atheist assumptions to begin with.

Every Hebraist in the world agrees that raqiya means "expanse." That's what 100% of all real Hebrew scholars say. Now you have you pretend Hebrew scholars out saying otherwise. But then they get busted on simple Hebrew words like tebel which every Hebrew scholar knows means "the habitable globe." Then there is Job 26:7 which is clearly understood as meaning an earth suspended in space over nothing at all. A few verses later, in Job 26:10, we can read about the boundary of day and night which is caused by the earth's rotation. I think that was also brought up right here on this topic by another member.

The ANE assumes that all religions are the same and held the same beliefs. They assume the Hebrews borrowed from pagans which is absurd since paganism was not allowed in Israel. They have no desire to follow the pagan religions (even though many times they fell into idolatry). I snagged this meme off of facebook because it reveals where ANE assumptions came from.
View attachment 315488

This picture and others that follow it's assumption all come from the 20th century. They were liberal scholars who conjured this up and true scholarship respects traditional scholarship and exegesis. Modern liberal scholars have no respect for the Bible and literally make up their own theology which deviates from sound exegesis.

Now if you go on facebook you will notice that these allegations are shot down as fast as they are levelled. That's because the movement started on youtube and facebook and it died around 2019, no later than 2020. The only time I ever see anyone debating this topic is when an atheist tries to discredit the Bible by using these false claims. But these days those arguments do not last long at all.

I didn't read over this entire topic but I was also to read the last 2 or 3 pages of this discussion. I suggest reading the following posts since that is real good scholarship.

POLL: Did the ancient Hebrews believe that the earth was flat?

POLL: Did the ancient Hebrews believe that the earth was flat?

Fezzilla is right. One of the things he brought up in this topic is the Hebrew word tebel. He provided 4 Old Testament Hebrew lexicons proving that William Tyndale knew what he was doing. Another thing I would like to bring up here is that the Hebrew word tebel translates to oikoumene in Greek. This Greek word is very unique because one cannot say oikoumene without implying antipodes, and one cannot say antipodes without implying oikoumene. This is because of how the Greek concept of the globe works. They have the 5 zones to their globe and two of these zones were oikoumene (the inhabited part) and the antipodes (a part of the globe disputed as to whether or not it was inhabited). The antipodes are defined as people of opposite earth, or those who's feet walk beneath our feet. They really don't teach this topic anymore in the secular world which is why we have a flat earth movement today. The Bible used oikoumene in both Testaments. Another word that is interchangeable with oikoumene is kosmos which is a meaning that ranges from the universe, to the globe and the inhabitants thereof, and it also means people. Like all words, the context determines the meaning. Even in English we have words that carry broad definitions and are contextual in how they are applied. If, for example, I say, this is my world (referring to this forum), then I am merely saying that I am spending too much time on this forum lol! But if I say the world referring the to earth and all the inhabitants then I also say the world is a globe. You will find this definition in all English dictionaries. The Hebrew tebel and Greek oikoumene/kosmos are no different in their application. When applied to the whole earth along with the inhabitants it means globe.

This is the correct theology on the matter. The ANE theology is very sloppy and presumptuous.

I don't really see what any of the above post has to do with the firmament and the waters above. For example, you mentioned Job suggesting that earth was suspended in space, but what does that have to do with the raqia?

Tebel means habitable globe, and so what does that have to do with the raqia?

The word raqia means "expanse", ok, but that says nothing of the nature of the expanse.

If we take every single verse on the raqia throughout the old testament, in every single case, it is described with adjectives suggesting that it was a solid structure. Hence how it could have windows that held back flood waters and hence how the windows closed to restrain the flood waters at the end of the flood. And so in a world in which a solid dome is present, domes, much like a snow globe, rest upon flat surfaces. Which should come of no surprise given that ancient Hebrews had not yet invented satellite technology to investigate the shape of earth.

 

[atpollard]

Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far has he put our offences from us.

The Hebrew words literally refer to “the place where the sun rises” and “the place where the sun sets” … so a more literal translation would be “As far as the sunrise is from the sunset, so far has he put our offences from us.”

This makes Psalm 103:12 an observational reference that applies equally to a flat or spherical earth.