POLL: Did the ancient Hebrews believe that the earth was flat?

[rakovsky]

A common view in ancient Mesopotamia was that the earth was flat. Abraham came from Ur, a major Sumerian city, before settling in Canaan. The Sumerians and Babylonians ruled in 2000-600 BC, when Moses and many other Biblical writers lived.

Sumerians and Babylonians

The Sumerians and Babylonians are considered some of the most advanced in their era in geology and cosmology:

The 9 planets, perhaps?

They also invented the calendar. By studying the phases of the Moon, Sumerians created the first calendar. It had 12 lunar months and was the predecessor for both the Jewish and Greek calendars. A Lunar calendar that is more accurate then the Gregorian Calendar we use today. The Babylonian calendar was a lunisolar calendar with years consisting of 12 lunar months, each beginning when a new crescent moon was first sighted low on the western horizon at sunset, plus an intercalary month inserted as needed by decree. The calendar is based on a Sumerian (Ur III) predecessor preserved in the Umma calendar of Shulgi (c. 21st century BC).

The Sumerians were among the first astronomers, mapping the stars into sets of constellations, many of which survived in the zodiac and were also recognized by the ancient Greeks. They were also aware of the planets that are visible to the naked eye. Their astronomers developed advanced mathematical functions to permit them to accurately plot and forecast - for many hundred years ahead - cyclical planetary orbital movements and alignments.

http://www.fathis.com/wendy-ann-blog/sumerian-science-technology

The American Federation of Teachers website explains that the Sumerians thought that the world was flat:

To better understand how science progresses, let's begin with the Sumerians' thoughts on the Earth... The wise ones, who were deep thinkers and observers, said the sky was like an upside-down soup dish—solid and bowl shaped...

And the Earth? It was a flat disk set in a surrounding ocean. Below Earth was the vast underworld. Each night it was visited by the Sun. These were the thoughts of the Sumerians, who, 5,000 years ago, created what may have been the world's first great civilization.

- See more at: http://www.aft.org/periodical/american-educator/fall-2004/fantastic-journey#sthash.9QuT7lDk.dpuf

Babylonian map of earth

Sumerian Religion

...The Sumerian term for universe is an-ki, which translates to "heaven-earth." Earth was seen as a flat disk surrounded by a hollow space.
The boundary between heaven and earth was a solid (perhaps tin) vault, and the earth was a flat disk.
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Sumer/Sumerian_Religion.htm

From verses scattered throughout hymns and myths, one can compile a picture of the universe's (anki) creation according to the Sumerians.... The boundary between heaven and earth was a solid (perhaps tin) vault, and the earth was a flat disk. (Kramer, The Sumerians 1963: pp. 112-113)

Typical of ancient flat earth cosmologies, the Sumerians depicted the sun moving across the sky each day:

Shamash (Babbar, Utu) Shamash is the sun god, the son of Sin and Ningal. He rises from the mountains with rays out of his shoulders. He enters and exits the underworld through a set of gates in the mountain (exits from Mt. Mashu, "Gilgamesh IX ii") guarded by scorpion-people.

http://etb-cosmology.blogspot.com/2012/03/did-ancient-sumerians-know-about-our.html

"In this primeval sea was somehow engendered the universe the 'heaven-earth,' consisting of a vaulted heaven superimposed over a flat earth and united with it." (Kramer, Samuel Noah. History Begins at Sumer. Garden City: Doubleday Anchor Books, 1959. Pp 76-84.)

"... a vaulted heaven superimposed over a flat earth and united with it..." (Kramer, Samuel Noah. The Sacred Marriage Rite: Aspects of Faith, Myth, and Ritual in Ancient Sumer. Indiana University Press, Bloomington, 1969.

McNider and Christy prefer to take the discussion back to “ancient times,” when they allege there was a “scientific consensus” about a flat earth. Christine Garwood reviewed that history in her comprehensive history Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea. She notes that the idea of a flat earth is common in Middle Eastern religious cosmologies, including the ancient Egyptians, Sumerians/Babylonians, and early Hebrews.

http://ncse.com/blog/2014/02/was-there-ever-flat-earth-consensus-0015426

This of course is not to say that automatically the Hebrews would accept all the beliefs of their neighbors. Their main difference, however, was in theology and religion rather than science. Major differences included Torah observance and their rejection of idols and of worship of other gods. Even in this area they were not always so different- Egyptians practiced circumcision and some Egyptians like Akhenaton were monotheists, while other Egyptians proposed that the gods were just faces or aspects of the one true God. Even in the Bible there are cases where Egyptians acknowledge God.

Thus, when it came to science, it might not be a surprise if they believed the other scientific teachings of the academics of their era.

Below are some verses that agree with belief in a flat earth:

The earth's circle
A circle (hug) is flat, a ball(dur) is round. eg. Isaiah 22:18 uses the word ball (dur).

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle (hug) of the earth,

Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass (hug) upon the face of the depth:

The earth's ends
Job 37:3 He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.

Job 37:33 He unleashes his lightning beneath the whole heaven and sends it to the ends of the earth.

Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth

Isaiah 43:6 I'll say to the north, 'Give them up'! and to the south, 'Don't keep them back!' Bring my sons from far away and my daughters from the ends of the earth

Jeremiah 51:16 He brings up the mist from the ends of the earth

Zechariah 9:10 And He will speak peace to the nations; And His dominion will be from sea to sea, And from the River to the ends of the earth.

The East and the West at the opposite ends of the earth
Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far has he put our offences from us.

Seeing all the earth's land from a single point in space
Job 28:24 For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;

Daniel 4:10-11 [The king] saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds.

Matthew 4:8 “Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory.”

The earth's corners
One explanation has been that "corners" is a designation for directions.
Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

The earth's foundations
Job 9:6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof

1 Samuel 2:8 for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he hath set the world upon them.

2 Samuel 22:16 And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered

Psalm 104:5 Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.

The earth's stretching out
Something that is stretched out is flat.

Psalm 136:6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Stretching a line across the eartth, rather than around it
Job 38:44 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?

The earth's stretching over nothing
Something that is suspended over nothing would have an underside.
Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing [beliymah].

The earth's form is like clay under a seal.
A seal is a two dimensional object that stamps another two dimensional one on clay.
Job 38:13-14
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it?
It takes on form like clay under a seal, And stands out like a garment.

 

[angelos17]

Very insightful read. I however *believe* that the terms in the verses are more figurative than literal.

Agreeably there was a sense of the earths expanse and the words were chosen to allow adherers glean the vastness of the earth in relation to God's dictates.

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[rakovsky]

Very insightful read. I however *believe* that the terms in the verses are more figurative than literal.

To see whether this is the case, one of the first questions can be Did the Hebrews themselves think that the earth was flat like the other Mesopotamian civilizations of their era did? After all, nowadays few except a flat geocentricism system, but we still sometimes say figuratively that the sun rises.

To answer that, consider that many times the Bible, figuratively or not, speaks of a flat earth, but never says that the earth is a sphere.

 

[angelos17]

To see whether this is the case, one of the first questions can be Did the Hebrews themselves think that the earth was flat like the other Mesopotamian civilizations of their era did? After all, nowadays few except a flat geocentricism system, but we still sometimes say figuratively that the sun rises.

To answer that, consider that many times the Bible, figuratively or not, speaks of a flat earth, but never says that the earth is a sphere.

Noted.

Help me with this though. Does the bible mention the East, West, North, and South anywhere?

(Constrained from searching online right now)

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[rakovsky]

Noted.

Help me with this though. Does the bible mention the East, West, North, and South anywhere?

Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far has he put our offences from us.

So, where are the east and the west? If the far east is (the east end of Russia) and the far west is Alaska, then on a flat earth map they are at opposite ends:

On a round globe though, the two locations are right next to eachother:

I suppose that you can say that the Psalm is only figurative. But it still seems to be an expression that relies on a flat earth model. If they use many expressions like this and never say in the whole, long Bible that the earth is round, it makes me think that they thought this way.

 

[angelos17]

Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far has he put our offences from us.

So, where are the east and the west? If the far east is (the east end of Russia) and the far west is Alaska, then on a flat earth map they are at opposite ends:

On a round globe though, the two locations are right next to eachother:

I suppose that you can say that the Psalm is only figurative. But it still seems to be an expression that relies on a flat earth model. If they use many expressions like this and never say in the whole, long Bible that the earth is round, it makes me think that they thought this way.

Oh great. Especially about they poles being furthest yet closest to each other ( you verbalized a view I've had in my mind for years)

Anyway, so hear are a few more versus I've found on the poles from the bible http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/North,-South,-East-And-West

Does the inclusion of Nort and South validate only a flat planed earth?

I am about to delve deeper into researching the analogies made biblically.

 

[rakovsky]

Anyway, so hear are a few more versus I've found on the poles from the bible http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/North,-South,-East-And-West

Does the inclusion of Nort and South validate only a flat planed earth?

The difference with the North-South poles is that the earth spins right to left, not up to down. North is located at the top of the earth, so it doesn't move in relation to the rest of the earth. it is a set location. But there is not a natural set location for east and west, because the earth does spin east to west.

And if we do pick a far right and a far left location, then in a round earth model, the far right and far left are right next to each other. But even with a round earth model that rotates side to side, the north and south are still on opposite poles.

Some questions to consider: In the OP I cited over 20 verses reflecting an idea in a flat earth. I know that some verses can be allegorical, but wouldn't at least one of them out of 20+ be meant literally? And if the writers believed in a round earth unlike their contemporaries, why wouldn't they ever use expressions of a round earth instead of always using flat earth allegories?

 

[angelos17]

The difference with the North-South poles is that the earth spins right to left, not up to down. North is located at the top of the earth, so it doesn't move in relation to the rest of the earth. it is a set location. But there is not a natural set location for east and west, because the earth does spin east to west.

And if we do pick a far right and a far left location, then in a round earth model, the far right and far left are right next to each other. But even with a round earth model that rotates side to side, the north and south are still on opposite poles.

Some questions to consider: In the OP I cited over 20 verses reflecting an idea in a flat earth. I know that some verses can be allegorical, but wouldn't at least one of them out of 20+ be meant literally? And if the writers believed in a round earth unlike their contemporaries, why wouldn't they ever use expressions of a round earth instead of always using flat earth allegories?

Insteresting question you ask there in your last line.

I am halfway through this very insightful article http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2001/PSCF9-01Schneider.html

Don't know if you've already come accross it in your research. We can consider it in our deliberations after we're done reading it and evaluating the auhour's points. Galileo's view on the "biblical statements in the light of modern revealed science" especially intrigues me.

 

[rakovsky]

Insteresting question you ask there in your last line.

I am halfway through this very insightful article http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2001/PSCF9-01Schneider.html

Don't know if you've already come accross it in your research. We can consider it in our deliberations after we're done reading it and evaluating the auhour's points. Galileo's view on the "biblical statements in the light of modern revealed science" especially intrigues me.

Looks like a good essay.

 

[Soyeong]

A common view in ancient Mesopotamia was that the earth was flat. Abraham came from Ur, a major Sumerian city, before settling in Canaan. The Sumerians and Babylonians ruled in 2000-600 BC, when Moses and many other Biblical writers lived.

Sumerians and Babylonians

The Sumerians and Babylonians are considered some of the most advanced in their era in geology and cosmology:


http://www.fathis.com/wendy-ann-blog/sumerian-science-technology

The American Federation of Teachers website explains that the Sumerians thought that the world was flat:

Babylonian map of earth




http://etb-cosmology.blogspot.com/2012/03/did-ancient-sumerians-know-about-our.html

"In this primeval sea was somehow engendered the universe the 'heaven-earth,' consisting of a vaulted heaven superimposed over a flat earth and united with it." (Kramer, Samuel Noah. History Begins at Sumer. Garden City: Doubleday Anchor Books, 1959. Pp 76-84.)

"... a vaulted heaven superimposed over a flat earth and united with it..." (Kramer, Samuel Noah. The Sacred Marriage Rite: Aspects of Faith, Myth, and Ritual in Ancient Sumer. Indiana University Press, Bloomington, 1969.


http://ncse.com/blog/2014/02/was-there-ever-flat-earth-consensus-0015426

This of course is not to say that automatically the Hebrews would accept all the beliefs of their neighbors. Their main difference, however, was in theology and religion rather than science. Major differences included Torah observance and their rejection of idols and of worship of other gods. Even in this area they were not always so different- Egyptians practiced circumcision and some Egyptians like Akhenaton were monotheists, while other Egyptians proposed that the gods were just faces or aspects of the one true God. Even in the Bible there are cases where Egyptians acknowledge God.

Thus, when it came to science, it might not be a surprise if they believed the other scientific teachings of the academics of their era.

Below are some verses that agree with belief in a flat earth:

The earth's circle
A circle (hug) is flat, a ball(dur) is round. eg. Isaiah 22:18 uses the word ball (dur).

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle (hug) of the earth,

Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass (hug) upon the face of the depth:

The earth's ends
Job 37:3 He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.

Job 37:33 He unleashes his lightning beneath the whole heaven and sends it to the ends of the earth.

Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth

Isaiah 43:6 I'll say to the north, 'Give them up'! and to the south, 'Don't keep them back!' Bring my sons from far away and my daughters from the ends of the earth

Jeremiah 51:16 He brings up the mist from the ends of the earth

Zechariah 9:10 And He will speak peace to the nations; And His dominion will be from sea to sea, And from the River to the ends of the earth.

The East and the West at the opposite ends of the earth
Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far has he put our offences from us.

Seeing all the earth's land from a single point in space
Job 28:24 For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;

Daniel 4:10-11 [The king] saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds.

Matthew 4:8 “Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory.”

The earth's corners
One explanation has been that "corners" is a designation for directions.
Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

The earth's foundations
Job 9:6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof

1 Samuel 2:8 for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he hath set the world upon them.

2 Samuel 22:16 And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered

Psalm 104:5 Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.

The earth's stretching out
Something that is stretched out is flat.

Psalm 136:6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Stretching a line across the eartth, rather than around it
Job 38:44 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?

The earth's stretching over nothing
Something that is suspended over nothing would have an underside.
Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing [beliymah].

There have been many, many people who have used the expression "four corners of the earth" who did not think that the earth was flat or rectangular, so you are being hyper-literal, and the same goes for the other expressions. It is very easy to tell that the earth is not flat just by watching the mast of a ship sink below the horizon rather than fade from view, so it was never a wide-spread belief that the earth was flat.

 

[rakovsky]

it was never a wide-spread belief that the earth was flat.

Are you saying that this was not a widespread belief of the Babylonians and Sumerians who were the major civilizations where the Bible was written?

Wikipedia says that the Egyptians believed it too:

In early Egyptian[6] and Mesopotamian thought the world was portrayed as a flat disk floating in the ocean. A similar model is found in the Homeric account of the 8th century BC in which "Okeanos, the personified body of water surrounding the circular surface of the Earth, is the begetter of all life and possibly of all gods."[7] The Israelites likely had a similar cosmology, with the earth as a flat disc floating on water beneath an arced firmament separating it from the heavens.[8]

The Pyramid Texts and Coffin Texts reveal that the ancient Egyptians believed Nun (the Ocean) was a circular body surrounding nbwt (a term meaning "dry lands" or "Islands"), and therefore believed in a similar Ancient Near Eastern circular earth cosmography surrounded by water.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth#Ancient_Near_East

 

[DamianWarS]

There is no reason to think the ancient Hebrews thought the earth was a sphere. Ancient Hebrews are extremely concrete and they would accept what they could see and a concept like a round earth would be too abstract for the Hebrews or really any ancient.

If we read the creation account the universe is very geocentric with everything positioned around the earth. The stars and moon are put in the sky for earth to see at night and the sun is put in the sky to see during the day. But we know today there are stars that are so far away we cannot see them at night so what value did these stars have when they were created?

There is a depth to the universe that goes beyond the capacity of the bible but if the psalms were written today that capacity would be far greater. This is because we can only write what we understand. Revelation is a book of prophecy that looks to the future but even then John only wrote what he saw in his vision. The ancient authors also only wrote what they understood.

Our scientific understanding today does not come from mysteries revealed through the bible but rather through scientific advances but why is this of any surprise? Since when was the bible a science book?

 

[angelos17]

Rakovsky, got my expo from the article I referred to earlier in relation to this topic, will post duly.


(However, would appreciate your view on this question of mine http://www.christianforums.com/index.php?threads/7946269/ )

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[rakovsky]

Rakovsky, got my expo from the article I referred to earlier in relation to this topic, will post duly.


(However, would appreciate your view on this question of mine http://www.christianforums.com/index.php?threads/7946269/ )

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Angelos,

OK, I answered your question here:
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/what-is-truth.7946269/#post-69615523

My instinct was to say that Truth = Reality, what is real. Strong's backs me up on that. For your book you can look at the question of what the ancient Greek pagan writers used the word Aletheios to mean, since that word was then used in the Bible for Truth. Strong's says that they used it in the sense of Reality.

So for example if you ask if an event is true or whether a story is true, you mean if they really happened or if the story is real.

Let's turn to the Bible. Many theologians would say that it's a book for spirituality and morality, rather than a science book. Is it "true" that God made man? Did it "really" happen? for those theologians, Yes, God did this, and so the statement is true, but many theologians would also say that God made man using evolution. So ultimately God made man from clay, since animals ultimately come from clay, so god making man from clay is not a false or unreal statement, it's just better seen as spiritual truth.

One way to find truth in ancient Greece was to use the Socratic method. So we can use it to begin to understand whether the Bible's expressions and narratives must be understand scientifically.

Is it real or true that the ancient Hebrews typically believed that the world was flat?
This is hard to prove absolutely, because we don't have them here to question.

Did any of the Bible writers think that the world was flat?
Statistically, it's likely that at least one of them thought it, because the Bible had many writers covering over a thousand years of writing and goes on for over a thousand pages. (Bible statistics: http://www.biblestudy101.org/Lists/statisticsHB.html)
They write over 20 times expressions that many consider to reflect ideas of a flat earth, and while such expressions in modern English can be figures of speech, they seem to reflect a common idea of the world as flat if we don't meet such expressions reflecting an idea of the world as round.
And the Bible writers lived in a time when it was at least debated what the shape of the earth was. Scholars say that the major civilizations of that region and time believed the world was flat. But scholars can be wrong, and I notice that on the Sumerian metal plate, the earth and stars or planets look round on the side facing the viewer, although I suppose that could just be the way that the plate sticks out in general with rounded or pointed forms instead of flat ones.

Did at any time any of the Bible writers express the idea of a flat earth and have in mind that it was actually so?
Out of 20+ verses potentially reflecting such an idea, it would normally be likely. The alternative is that it's a figure of speech.

What verses are most likely to express this literally?
A) Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass/circle ("khug"-circle) upon the face of the depth:
The writer thinks that Wisdom was a spirit who was actually there when God prepared the heavens, so it seems that in this verse he would be saying that the spirit was actually there when God actually was there when God put a circle on the abyss to mark off the earth in the form of a circle (a flat object as drawn by a compass). The author believed that the heavens and earth were actually made by God, and in this verse Solomon is alluding to Genesis 1, the story of creating the heavens and earth. Putting a circle on the earth was the preparatory step of making the earth, just like preparing the heavens was the preparatory step for making the heavens.

B) Jeremiah 51 16 says:
When He utters His voice— [Figurative?: God does not have voice of any kind?]
There is a multitude of waters in the heavens: [Figurative?: there are not waters in the heavens?]
“He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; [Figurative?, the earth does not have ends and vapors don't come from it?]
He makes lightnings for the rain; [Figurative: there are not lightnings for the rain?]
He brings the wind out of His treasuries.”[Figurative?: God has in no sense treasuries and doesn't bring wind from them?]

On closer inspection it seems that in some sense God must have "treasuries" and in some sense the earth must have "ends". "Treasuries" may be an expression for God's sources of phenomena. So ends of the earth can be an expression for something else too, but what? The directions?

C) Daniel 4:10-11 [The king] saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds.
The king has a dream where he sees the world as a flat earth. Babylonians like the king believed this. But still, it was a dream, so we are not compelled to think that the Bible had to mean that the earth was this way.

D) Matthew 4:8 “Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory.”
Here we have a simple question: Did this event in Jesus' life happen or not? The Bible presents it as if the devil really led Jesus to a real, high mountain, and from it Jesus really saw the earth. This could have been a mirage that the devil created, but it seems more likely that it's expressed as if one could draw direct lines of sight to all those kingdoms, which reflects a belief in a flat earth. I guess you can say that the lines of sight bend when they get near the ends of space and then come back to the other side of the earth, but this sounds weird and am not sure that this is workable.

E) Over and again the Bible writers talk about the earth's foundations and pillars, eg.
Psalm 104:5 Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.
1 Samuel 2:8 for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he hath set the world upon them.
What is the point of using the expressions of pillars and foundations if the authors think the earth is a ball without foundations? I understand metaphor, but what is even the point of using a metaphor, if even metaphorically the expression is correct. Metaphorically, the "pillars" refer to what holds up the earth, but in a round earth model, there is nothing holding up the earth, its foundations close in on themselves in all directions.

F) Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place,
What is the point of using this expression as a metaphor if the earth being flat and stretched out over emptiness is absolutely foreign to your worldview and incomprehensible? The world does not even look that way; even as a figure of speech it only works in a scientific concept of the world as flat.
In other words, I accept allegories and poetry in the Bible and in common speech like saying the sun rises because it looks that way when you watch the dawn. But how does this poetry about the north being stretched out over emptiness work if the world is round?

There are more examples, but over and over the writers express in detail ideas that only work in a flat earth model, so it looks like that is actually what they meant when they wrote these things. Otherwise you are forced into mental gymnastics to explain how everything is just figurative poetry.

Final Question: If the Bible's writers do intentionally express the idea of a factual flat earth as a matter of science, and if this is incorrect, then is the Bible a text that is factually unmistakable?
This goes back to your What is Truth? question as it pertains to the Bible.
Can we assert definitively that everything in the Bible is absolute factual truth when intended as factual by its writers?

 

[SkyWriting]

A common view in ancient Mesopotamia was that the earth was flat. Abraham came from Ur, a major Sumerian city, before settling in Canaan. The Sumerians and Babylonians ruled in 2000-600 BC, when Moses and many other Biblical writers lived.

In most every source, the world today is described as flat.
In most every way, it can be measured as flat.
Even a long earth-curved surface can be measured
as flat and level on both ends.

Unless you have copies of all written works for any given
point in time, you won't know what all people believed
and where. And what they say may not reflect what they
believe, just as we say sun-rise and sun-set today.

 

[miamited]

Hi rakovsky,

You posted a lot of information about what early civilizations thought about or how they depicted the earth and the heavens in their writings and drawings.

I think that we should first understand that these early civilizations did not have the wisdom or revelation of God from whom they might gain their understanding. They were merely a people who pretty much only knew what went on in their little part of the earth. Why anyone would think to imagine that based on their own understanding they might know the truth of such things as the shape of the earth and the heavens is quite beyond me.

Secondly, a lot of the written evidence you provide is on papyrus or rock. Perhaps you'd like to take a shot at showing the earth as a sphere on such forms. For example: Your copy of the Babylonians depiction of the earth, because it's contained on a flat rock causes you to imagine that the person who placed the depiction on that rock thought that the earth was flat because it's a flat depiction on a rock. Well, duh! It's possible that they just hadn't figured out how to make papier mache' (?) 3 dimensional forms yet to depict the actuality of what they believed. If I were given a piece of paper on which to draw my own understanding of the form of the earth, guess what? My own drawing here in the 21st century would be flat and someone who were to find that drawing 2,000 years from now might consider that I thought the earth was flat. They'd be wrong!

So, just taking these two issues alone, I'm not surprised that a lot of the early civilization's depictions of the earth appear to us to be flat. Of course, we don't have the luxury of being able to ask the person who drew the picture whether they meant to infer that the earth was flat or not or whether that was just the best they could do on a two dimensional surface to depict a three dimensional reality. All we can do is say to ourselves today, "Look, this picture we found on this rock is flat. That must mean that these people thought the earth was flat." We could be wrong, however, in our assumption and we are not able to corroborate our understanding.

Finally, as to your many proofs from Scripture:

The earth's circle
A circle (hug) is flat, a ball(dur) is round. eg. Isaiah 22:18 uses the word ball (dur).

Actually, both are round. One is flat and round and the other is spherical and round. But even a sphere, by geometric definition, is made up of a limitless number of circle planes with the same radius and the same center point.

As to your many references in the Scriptures that speak of the ends of the earth. Perhaps your own evidence should be considered:

They write over 20 times expressions that many consider to reflect ideas of a flat earth, and while such expressions in modern English can be figures of speech, they seem to reflect a common idea of the world as flat if we don't meet such expressions reflecting an idea of the world as round.

You write that 'many consider'. Well, 'many consider' that there is no God. Because many, who have the same Scriptures available to them as you and I do, consider that there is not God, should this be our offering as proof that there is no God. Let's understand that what 'many consider' is not any kind of proof for or against an actuality. You write that 'ends of the earth' is an expression of modern English. Do you know this to be a fact? If so, can you tell me when people began to use it as an expression to infer all encompassing? How do you know that in 4,000 B.C. no one would have made a statement such as, "Because you have killed my child I will search for you to the ends of the earth." Meaning that they would expend the time and effort to search the whole earth to find them.

You see, an awful lot of your premise seems to be based on your own personal beliefs and biases created through such beliefs. Are you right?

For me, I know that the earth is a sphere and that the earth would not act as it does as it travels through space if it were a two sided circle. I know that God is wiser than I could ever hope to imagine and that He created the earth to be a sphere because of this very issue. Just as He pretty much created all of the bodies of the universe to be spherical in shape. You, on the other hand, believe that because two dimensional pictures depicting the earth as two dimensional must mean that people thought of the earth as two dimensional. And, that idioms such as 'the ends of the earth' couldn't have been idioms many, many centuries ago, that voile'! The earth must have been considered two dimensional. I don't operate on such unprovable proofs. I allow that there is no way for me to know how a person actually understood the earth to be just because on a two dimensional form of writing that person depicts a two dimensional picture of the earth. I understand that it's very, very difficult to depict a three dimensional form on a two dimensional piece of rock face or paper.

As for your other many Scriptural quotes. To accept your understanding that foundations somehow mean the earth must be a two dimensional form; that corners must reflect a two dimensional understanding, although quite honestly, corners would actually reflect a square rather than a circle, so I suppose your next thesis will be on how the earth is square and not round at all; that somehow 'stretching out' or 'laying a line' can only be accomplished with two dimensional forms and not possible on three dimensional forms, means that I must also accept your limited understanding of these things.

Every time I put air in my basketball I can see it stretching out. How in the world that could be possible with a spherical shape, I suppose, is beyond your ability to understand. But, by golly it happens every time. Take a simple balloon as another example. It comes to me as some practically flat form, but when I begin to blow it up, it spreads larger and larger until -- wait for it -- "POW".

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted













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[Albion]

Why is it that the title of the thread asks if the Hebrews thought the earth to be flat, but the poll question asks if any Bible writers explicitly described it as such?

 

[rakovsky]

Why is it that the title of the thread asks if the Hebrews thought the earth to be flat, but the poll question asks if any Bible writers explicitly described it as such?

I could change it if it's a problem.
To ans2er, I went from the general, a question on a tribe, to the specific, a question on the tribe's religious writers. Do you think that there could be a disparate situation where the Hebrews thought that the world was flat, but none of the Bible writers did and expressed that?

 

[Albion]

I could change it if it's a problem.
To ans2er, I went from the general, a question on a tribe, to the specific, a question on the tribe's religious writers. Do you think that there could be a disparate situation where the Hebrews thought that the world was flat, but none of the Bible writers did and expressed that?

Well, it does seem to me that these are two different issues--whether or not it was common among the ancient Hebrews to think of the world as flat...and whether or not any Bible writers said it was flat.

 

[rakovsky]

Well, it does seem to me that these are two different issues--whether or not it was common among the ancient Hebrews to think of the world as flat...and whether or not any Bible writers said it was flat.

The latter is a subset of what the Hebrews thought, since they were Hebrew.
The thread can discuss both. If you want to say that the Hebrews taught a flat earth but that their religious writings never did, you can propose that here.