POLL: Did the ancient Hebrews believe that the earth was flat?

[miamited]

Hi rakovsky,

You pointed out:

A minister can share God's peace or a word of inspiration with you, but does that mean every phrase is factually correct in the speaker's intention?

I don't apply inerrency to anything but the Scriptures. What a teacher, preacher or speaker says is not covered under my understanding of the inerrency of the Scriptures. They may well not understand something that they are teaching or speaking about, but that doesn't mean the Scriptures were wrong.

You asked:

If a minister is inspired and tells you that God's path is as straight as highway 54 which you both know is straight, but then later it turns out that it is actually hooked, does that prove that this saying by the minister was not inspired by the holy spirit in him?

If by 'hooked' you mean that it turns out that God's path is hooked, then that would make Jesus a liar. I'm certainly not willing to entertain that idea. If by 'hooked' you mean that it turns out that hwy 54 is hooked, well then yes, the preacher was wrong.

You wrote:

If factual inerrancy is true, how do you know this? Christians are very divided on this question.

I know it because Jesus said that God's word is truth and because Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth. So, I know that God's word is true as relates to inerrency and I know that if I have the Holy Spirit of God as my teacher that he will lead me into the truth. There is also some bearing on 'who' one chooses to believe is the author of the Scriptures. If we believe that the Scriptures are just the writings of men, meaning that man is the author and inspiration for the actual words that the many faithful people of God wrote that are considered the Scriptures, then they are just as subject to error as any other spiritual writings of men. There wouldn't be any logical reason to think that the Scriptures were any different than the writings of the Koran. However, if we believe that the author and the inspiration of the Scriptures is God, given to us through his Holy Spirit, then it's much easier to understand that they are without error.

You wrote:

If factual inerrancy is right, this should be reasonably defensible with the various verses.

Personally, I find that the inerrency of the Scriptures is reasonably defensible. Just as in this particular issue regarding the word 'stretch', you are unwilling to let go of 'added' requirements that you think that something, if it were stretched, would have. You are unwilling to accept that the word 'stretch' can simply mean to expand something to cover an area.

I can stretch the truth. That doesn't mean that it's flat, but that I'm applying it further than it can be applied.

If someone says to me that they are going to stretch over me to get something, it doesn't mean that they're going to lay flat over me, but that they are merely going to reach over me to get something. The effects of stretching 'may' cause something to flatten, but the use of the word itself does not automatically mean 'to make flat'. I find that it is an easily defensible position, but whether someone else will except my defense is up to them.

Sadly, Christians are in disagreement about a lot of things. Paul wrote about this very phenomenon and allowed that it must be so in order to show those who are approved. In this case, you are taking a position about something written in the Scriptures that you believe says something that you know not to be true. To me, that would be a much harder position to defend.

Does that mean that no one agrees with you? Of course not. There's a whole group of Christians that believe that the sacraments of communion physically turn into the blood and body of our Lord. There's a whole community of Christians that believe that the church has the authority to dissolve a marriage with the approval of God. There are obviously, according to the previous posts, people who agree with you that the Scriptures may be seen to posit that the earth is flat. The question for all of these issues is: Are they right?

How would we know? Well, that's a bit harder to tackle. First thing to understand is that we don't know who is indwelled with the Holy Spirit. Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit as a wind. We don't know where he is going or where he comes from. We don't know if the words that someone professing a strong and powerful faith in God is getting there information from the Holy Spirit. We don't know where he comes from.

Secondly, I take great caution when I read that Jesus told his disciples that on the day of judgment there are going to be 'many' christians standing apart from him. That he claims not to know. I mean let's be real for a moment. These people are making the claim to Jesus that they performed great miracles and spoke great prophecies in his name. It seems obvious to me that these people, when they walked on the earth, were christians. They went to church with us. They prayed with us. They ate with us and mourned with us and shared our joy. But Jesus turns to these people who self-describe themselves as doing great things in his name and tells them to depart from him that he doesn't know them.

Yes!!!! Absolutely!!!! It's a veritable minefield out here in the world and we need to be cautious. Just because someone went to an earthly college and now has the right to put 'doctor of ministry' behind their name doesn't necessarily mean that they have the truth of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Look up John Spong. Who he is. The degrees that he attained. How highly he has, in the past, been exalted in the fellowship of believers. What he teaches and claims to believe. Then come back and tell me that all those who say they are christians are born again children of the one true God. Come back and tell me that you are in agreement with all that he believes about God and Jesus and the Scriptures. Do it!

Here, this should get you started, but I hope you won't stop here:
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/735-john-shelby-spong-anglican-nightmare

God bless you
In Christ, Ted

 

[rakovsky]

Hi rakovsky,

You pointed out:

I don't apply inerrency to anything but the Scriptures. What a teacher, preacher or speaker says is not covered under my understanding of the inerrency of the Scriptures.

We teach that Christians have the holy spirit and that He inspires Christians today and inspired the prophets to write some things, particularly the Bible.

Jesus says God's Word is true but where does it say that every book of the Bible is God's word in the same sense that Jesus meant it, and where does it say that God's word is true in every sense, factual or allegorical exactly as the person whose mouth spoke it intended it?

Maybe God meant that route 54 is straight, as in a straight shot, or the straight and narrow, not as on straight like a mathematical line geometrically, even if the minister meant it literally and geometrically?

Maybe Moses meant the creation of man literally in Genesis 1, but God meant it allegorically?

If you consider factual inerrancy of all verses to be true, I ask you to return to analyzing the verses on the earth being above the waters and the earth not shaking due to the foundations,

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...e-earth-was-flat.7945989/page-3#post-69653873

 

[miamited]

Hi rakovsky,

You replied:

We teach that Christians have the holy spirit and that He inspires Christians today and inspired the prophets to write some things, particularly the Bible.

I'm not sure 'who' you mean when you say 'we', but...

I respectfully disagree. According to John, only those who have the Spirit of God have the right to be called children of God. According to Jesus, one must be born again. Born of the Spirit of God.

Unfortunately, the name Christian was first used in Antioch by unbelievers as an identification of those who joined with the group of those who sought to follow the example of living, that Jesus taught while he was with us.

Jesus told his disciples:
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

He then followed that with:

Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

So, let's put our thinking caps on and reason together. What day? Many will say to me 'on that day'... What day? My understanding is that this is speaking of the day of his Father's judgment against all mankind. A day to come after the rapture and after the millennial reign of Jesus on the earth. The day that comes after all the rest are resurrected who were not resurrected for the millennial reign of Jesus. A day that comes after Satan is released from his imprisonment to make one last and final attempt to dissuade anyone who will follow him to come with him. The last attempt that Satan is allowed to deceive mankind.

Many, Jesus says will be crying out to him, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Who are these people? While living their lives upon the earth prior to this day that Jesus is speaking of, these people claim of themselves to have driven out demons in the name of Jesus! There will be some among them who will be crying out that they prophesied in the name of Jesus! Many others of that group will be proclaiming how they did great and mighty miracles in the name of Jesus! Were these people identified on the earth as being christians since they say they did all these things on the earth in the name of Jesus? Who do you personally know that makes prophecies in the name of Jesus that doesn't identify themselves as a christian? Who do you know that does great and mighty miracles on the earth in the name of Jesus that says they aren't a christian? Who do you know that has claimed to have driven out demons in the name of Jesus that wouldn't be seen among men as a 'good church-goin' christian?

Jesus says that there will be 'many'. So, I'm fairly confident that our identifying ourselves as being a christian, isn't how we gain the indwelling Holy Spirit. I'm not really one who believes that because some person, in a moment of emotion, went down front before a congregation and confessed Jesus as Lord, or even one who has gone so far as to be baptized, has this indwelling Spirit.

I'm fairly well convicted that once we have the Holy Spirit, who Jesus said would convict us individually of both sin and righteousness, that we will see a major change in their attitude and understanding about life. Their whole worldview will change. Now, it may likely not be some immediate change, but it will happen, or you will quench the Holy Spirit and he'll leave.

Every single one of the new covenant writers made some mention of wolves, or wicked people, or unbelievers being among us in our fellowship.

In Jesus' letters to the seven churches found in the Revelation, he expends quite a bit of effort telling us that there is wickedness in most of these churches. How they act and what they believe. Do you believe that those people in those churches that Jesus is writing to didn't call themselves and identify as 'christians'? That the world, when they saw them coming out of their fellowships didn't say they were christians?

So, those 'we' that you speak of, I'm not in agreement with them either that just being a christian means that you have the discernment of the Holy Spirit in your understanding of the Scriptures.

Peter wrote of people among us who would find things hard to understand and told us to know that they are condemned for their lack of faith.

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord. But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.

So, after reading this, am I to believe that everyone who calls themselves a christian and is with me in fellowship can't possibly be a part of this group. If I may just write the highlighted portion: There will be false teachers among you. Many will bring the way of truth into disrepute. These teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Hmmm?

For me, when I hear someone trying to make a claim that the Scriptures say something that we know that we know is not true, then I measure that as bringing the way of truth into disrepute. Now, maybe that's not the way everyone else sees it and I'm ok with that and I could be wrong. You'll have to decide whether this work you are doing brings glory to God and His work, or not, for yourself. But I'd be very, very careful in working to show that the Scriptures 'obviously' say something that we know that we know isn't true. God is the author of the Scriptures and I would gather that He isn't pleased with one of those who identify as His child, trying to set His word up as false in any way whatsoever.

Trust me friend. It just means 'stretch'.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[rakovsky]

Hi rakovsky,

You replied:


I'm not sure 'who' you mean when you say 'we', but...

I respectfully disagree. According to John, only those who have the Spirit of God have the right to be called children of God. According to Jesus, one must be born again. Born of the Spirit of God.

Unfortunately, the name Christian was first used in Antioch by unbelievers as an identification of those who joined with the group of those who sought to follow the example of living, that Jesus taught while he was with us.

Jesus told his disciples:
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

He then followed that with:

Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

So, let's put our thinking caps on and reason together. What day? Many will say to me 'on that day'... What day? My understanding is that this is speaking of the day of his Father's judgment against all mankind. A day to come after the rapture and after the millennial reign of Jesus on the earth. The day that comes after all the rest are resurrected who were not resurrected for the millennial reign of Jesus. A day that comes after Satan is released from his imprisonment to make one last and final attempt to dissuade anyone who will follow him to come with him. The last attempt that Satan is allowed to deceive mankind.

Many, Jesus says will be crying out to him, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Who are these people? While living their lives upon the earth prior to this day that Jesus is speaking of, these people claim of themselves to have driven out demons in the name of Jesus! There will be some among them who will be crying out that they prophesied in the name of Jesus! Many others of that group will be proclaiming how they did great and mighty miracles in the name of Jesus! Were these people identified on the earth as being christians since they say they did all these things on the earth in the name of Jesus? Who do you personally know that makes prophecies in the name of Jesus that doesn't identify themselves as a christian? Who do you know that does great and mighty miracles on the earth in the name of Jesus that says they aren't a christian? Who do you know that has claimed to have driven out demons in the name of Jesus that wouldn't be seen among men as a 'good church-goin' christian?

Jesus says that there will be 'many'. So, I'm fairly confident that our identifying ourselves as being a christian, isn't how we gain the indwelling Holy Spirit. I'm not really one who believes that because some person, in a moment of emotion, went down front before a congregation and confessed Jesus as Lord, or even one who has gone so far as to be baptized, has this indwelling Spirit.

I'm fairly well convicted that once we have the Holy Spirit, who Jesus said would convict us individually of both sin and righteousness, that we will see a major change in their attitude and understanding about life. Their whole worldview will change. Now, it may likely not be some immediate change, but it will happen, or you will quench the Holy Spirit and he'll leave.

Every single one of the new covenant writers made some mention of wolves, or wicked people, or unbelievers being among us in our fellowship.

In Jesus' letters to the seven churches found in the Revelation, he expends quite a bit of effort telling us that there is wickedness in most of these churches. How they act and what they believe. Do you believe that those people in those churches that Jesus is writing to didn't call themselves and identify as 'christians'? That the world, when they saw them coming out of their fellowships didn't say they were christians?

So, those 'we' that you speak of, I'm not in agreement with them either that just being a christian means that you have the discernment of the Holy Spirit in your understanding of the Scriptures.

Peter wrote of people among us who would find things hard to understand and told us to know that they are condemned for their lack of faith.

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord. But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.

So, after reading this, am I to believe that everyone who calls themselves a christian and is with me in fellowship can't possibly be a part of this group. If I may just write the highlighted portion: There will be false teachers among you. Many will bring the way of truth into disrepute. These teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Hmmm?

For me, when I hear someone trying to make a claim that the Scriptures say something that we know that we know is not true, then I measure that as bringing the way of truth into disrepute.... You'll have to decide whether this work you are doing brings glory to God and His work, or not, for yourself. But I'd be very, very careful in working to show that the Scriptures 'obviously' say something that we know that we know isn't true. God is the author of the Scriptures and I would gather that He isn't pleased with one of those who identify as His child, trying to set His word up as false in any way whatsoever.

Trust me friend. It just means 'stretch'.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Hello, Ted. One goal here is to tell whether every sentence in the Bible, a book inspired by the Spirit must be absolutely factually true, or if it must only be spiritually true.

As you yourself said about the concept of absolute factual inerrancy, "Now, maybe that's not the way everyone else sees it and I'm ok with that and I could be wrong."

In order to find out which it is, I invite you to go through the questions I asked in the previous post above.

Another reason to address this is because there are some Christians who sincerely has such ideas. Previously I mentioned Calvin, wrote in his famous Institutes that Plato "lost himself in his round globe" and wrote in his commentary on Genesis 1 that the moon is a fiery light that emits it's own light, not just reflects the sun's. This is because the Bible calls the moon a light to illumined the day. Feel free to double check my citations.

If you have been following Yeshuasavedme's posts, you may have noticed that she believes that the earth does not revolve around the sun, due to the Biblical teachings on the question. Therefore, it is important to establish what the Bible is saying, because many sincere believers will simply believe whatever it says as absolute fact. If the Bible's teaching is more absolutely true than modern science that says that the earth is a moving sphere in a "solar system", then we need to find out closely what the Bible says to uncover this proposed absolute truth.

 

[StanJ]

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c015.html

 

[miamited]

Hi rakovsky,

I'm a bit lost. I've heard people say that there is some difference between 'factual' truth and 'spiritual' truth, but I'm honestly to dense to have any idea what that difference is. For me, it's simple - truth is truth. Could you maybe give me an example of something that is spiritually true but is not factually true that you have found in the Scriptures? I mean, are you trying to say that there is some 'spiritual' truth to be gleaned from understanding that a word in the Scriptures would mean that the earth is flat, but it isn't in fact flat. What is that spiritual truth?

You copied my comment:

As you yourself said about the concept of absolute factual inerrancy, "Now, maybe that's not the way everyone else sees it and I'm ok with that and I could be wrong."

I'm always ok that others may not agree with me. As I posted, I'm fully aware that there are those among us who are not of us. So, I fully expect to not find agreement in a lot of things about the Scriptures based on this knowledge. However, just so you know that I also find a lot of agreement with believers. I've shared on these boards for a lot of years. Trust me there are some who are in agreement with me and I am in agreement with them. However, there are a lot more with which I am not in agreement with and are not in agreement with me.

I do a lot of sharing on the creation threads and, yea, I'm a fairly vociferous minority on those threads. That's actually where I hear most often this mantra that there are such things as 'spiritual truths that are not factual truths'. I understand that a lot of people have a lot of little ditties that they think are really cute and wise to say, but when the rubber meets the road many times they are hard pressed to explain clearly what they mean. Maybe you can do that. We'll see.

You then responded:

Previously I mentioned Calvin, wrote in his famous Institutes that Plato "lost himself in his round globe" and wrote in his commentary on Genesis 1 that the moon is a fiery light that emits it's own light, not just reflects the sun's.

I have no idea what Calvin's faith was based on or whether he did have the Holy Spirit as his teacher. I can't talk to him and search his thoughts and reason. All I have is what he wrote and I can tell you that as some people explain to me about his writing and thoughts on salvation, I'm sure I'm in agreement with him. But, I don't have the luxury of saying to him, 'Look, what you said seems to infer thus. Is that what you meant?" It's a tough call to try to determine if people living today are actually filled with the Spirit and I'm sure it's darn near impossible to make such a distinction with someone long dead.

All I can do is tell you what the Scriptures say and what the Holy Spirit, I believe, is giving me as the understanding of what the Scriptures say. That's all I can do!

If you were to say to me that Paul said something I would likely lend an ear, but to tell me that Calvin said something. I know that Paul was to be the Lord's witness to me because Jesus told me so through the Scriptures. Everyone else is suspect.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Hoghead1]

Hello, Ted. One goal here is to tell whether every sentence in the Bible, a book inspired by the Spirit must be absolutely factually true, or if it must only be spiritually true.

As you yourself said about the concept of absolute factual inerrancy, "Now, maybe that's not the way everyone else sees it and I'm ok with that and I could be wrong."

In order to find out which it is, I invite you to go through the questions I asked in the previous post above.

Another reason to address this is because there are some Christians who sincerely has such ideas. Previously I mentioned Calvin, wrote in his famous Institutes that Plato "lost himself in his round globe" and wrote in his commentary on Genesis 1 that the moon is a fiery light that emits it's own light, not just reflects the sun's. This is because the Bible calls the moon a light to illumined the day. Feel free to double check my citations.

If you have been following Yeshuasavedme's posts, you may have noticed that she believes that the earth does not revolve around the sun, due to the Biblical teachings on the question. Therefore, it is important to establish what the Bible is saying, because many sincere believers will simply believe whatever it says as absolute fact. If the Bible's teaching is more absolutely true than modern science that says that the earth is a moving sphere in a "solar system", then we need to find out closely what the Bible says to uncover this proposed absolute truth.

The truth of the matter is that the Bible views the earth as flat and at the center of the universe. That is backed up by over 70 passages. You might want to look sometime at a book titled "Earth Be Not Globe," a popular 19the-century book that argued for a flat earth on the basis of Scripture.

 

[miamited]

Hi hoghead,

No, I don't agree that the Scriptures teach that the earth is flat. As far as its being at the center of the universe, no one knows. We don't know the parameters of the universe and so knowing where its center point is would be impossible. It may or may not be at the center of the universe. I don't know.

If the universe does turn out to be unending, then there is no center.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[rakovsky]

No, I don't agree that the Scriptures teach that the earth is flat.

Hello, Ted.
Did you consider the possibility I mentioned of what "inspired" means and how they could have meant God's Word?
If a prophet or minister with the Spirit makes wonderful teachings, believers may say that he is inspired to make these teachings and that he is sharing God's Word and the gospel with us. These teachings were then collected into various books, which the faithful called the inspired writings of God's Word. However, when the books were passed down and selected by the faithful, they may not have thought of them as absolute, just as we may not think of a minister's spirit filled words as 100% factually perfect. I gave an example before where route 54 turns out to be hooked. Another example could be if they thought that the earth had actual foundations and could not shake because it had foundations. With these words the ministers gave spiritual truths, but it may not mean that facts used to express those truths were perfect absolutely.

Take for example, Psalm 104:5 Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.
Does the fact that nowadays scientists know that comets can hit the earth and shake it from its path around the sun mean, as you said, #1 that we must hold the writer to a perfect factual standard and say, as you stated, it would make him a "liar"? Thus the Psalms are bad "lies" and we should not read its lies?

Or else should we say #2 that we cannot understand or accept what non-inerrantists find obvious - that the writer was expressing the idea that the planet earth is planted hard with some kind of foundation and can't be moved from this base? Perhaps we must say that "fix" does not mean to fasten something, but only to arrange it, or the word "never" is a typo? Or maybe "never" is just relative and he meant that it "never" shakes unless a comet hits it or something else happens to shake it?

It seems that you pick #2 no matter what, and make it meet your own understanding of science. So back in 1800 AD you might have agreed with Y.S.M. above who teaches geocentricism, but nowadays you know that the Bible could not be teaching that because it's scientifically wrong in your mind. So pretty much any verse expressing any facts there must be an explanation to justify as factual, no matter how strange it sounds to non-inerrantists. So if Genesis says that a flood covered the whole world and Noah's Ark went all the way to the Ararat mountains, then either it was just a local flood in Armenia that happened to put a boat that high, or else it was over the whole world and the scientific impossibilities are explained by miracles, or Noah or Moses never ever meant it as a real factual story.

I think inerrantist fundamentalist Muslims could do the same thing with the Koran. Any verse no matter how fictional it sounds they could find a way to "explain" it as 100% factually true or else just a metaphor, because they are locked into this scheme of interpretation.

 

[Hoghead1]

Hi rakovsky,

You replied:


I'm not sure 'who' you mean when you say 'we', but...

I respectfully disagree. According to John, only those who have the Spirit of God have the right to be called children of God. According to Jesus, one must be born again. Born of the Spirit of God.

Unfortunately, the name Christian was first used in Antioch by unbelievers as an identification of those who joined with the group of those who sought to follow the example of living, that Jesus taught while he was with us.

Jesus told his disciples:
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

He then followed that with:

Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

So, let's put our thinking caps on and reason together. What day? Many will say to me 'on that day'... What day? My understanding is that this is speaking of the day of his Father's judgment against all mankind. A day to come after the rapture and after the millennial reign of Jesus on the earth. The day that comes after all the rest are resurrected who were not resurrected for the millennial reign of Jesus. A day that comes after Satan is released from his imprisonment to make one last and final attempt to dissuade anyone who will follow him to come with him. The last attempt that Satan is allowed to deceive mankind.

Many, Jesus says will be crying out to him, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Who are these people? While living their lives upon the earth prior to this day that Jesus is speaking of, these people claim of themselves to have driven out demons in the name of Jesus! There will be some among them who will be crying out that they prophesied in the name of Jesus! Many others of that group will be proclaiming how they did great and mighty miracles in the name of Jesus! Were these people identified on the earth as being christians since they say they did all these things on the earth in the name of Jesus? Who do you personally know that makes prophecies in the name of Jesus that doesn't identify themselves as a christian? Who do you know that does great and mighty miracles on the earth in the name of Jesus that says they aren't a christian? Who do you know that has claimed to have driven out demons in the name of Jesus that wouldn't be seen among men as a 'good church-goin' christian?

Jesus says that there will be 'many'. So, I'm fairly confident that our identifying ourselves as being a christian, isn't how we gain the indwelling Holy Spirit. I'm not really one who believes that because some person, in a moment of emotion, went down front before a congregation and confessed Jesus as Lord, or even one who has gone so far as to be baptized, has this indwelling Spirit.

I'm fairly well convicted that once we have the Holy Spirit, who Jesus said would convict us individually of both sin and righteousness, that we will see a major change in their attitude and understanding about life. Their whole worldview will change. Now, it may likely not be some immediate change, but it will happen, or you will quench the Holy Spirit and he'll leave.

Every single one of the new covenant writers made some mention of wolves, or wicked people, or unbelievers being among us in our fellowship.

In Jesus' letters to the seven churches found in the Revelation, he expends quite a bit of effort telling us that there is wickedness in most of these churches. How they act and what they believe. Do you believe that those people in those churches that Jesus is writing to didn't call themselves and identify as 'christians'? That the world, when they saw them coming out of their fellowships didn't say they were christians?

So, those 'we' that you speak of, I'm not in agreement with them either that just being a christian means that you have the discernment of the Holy Spirit in your understanding of the Scriptures.

Peter wrote of people among us who would find things hard to understand and told us to know that they are condemned for their lack of faith.

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord. But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.

So, after reading this, am I to believe that everyone who calls themselves a christian and is with me in fellowship can't possibly be a part of this group. If I may just write the highlighted portion: There will be false teachers among you. Many will bring the way of truth into disrepute. These teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Hmmm?

For me, when I hear someone trying to make a claim that the Scriptures say something that we know that we know is not true, then I measure that as bringing the way of truth into disrepute. Now, maybe that's not the way everyone else sees it and I'm ok with that and I could be wrong. You'll have to decide whether this work you are doing brings glory to God and His work, or not, for yourself. But I'd be very, very careful in working to show that the Scriptures 'obviously' say something that we know that we know isn't true. God is the author of the Scriptures and I would gather that He isn't pleased with one of those who identify as His child, trying to set His word up as false in any way whatsoever.

Trust me friend. It just means 'stretch'.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Yes, but who is to determine who the false teachers are? As far as I am concerned, your statement that God authored Scripture is way, way off, hence, false You are simply going on the dictation theory of inspiration, which can and has been questioned in many respects, especially as Scripture does not describe the inspiration process. Also, there is the matter of about 100 major contradictions in Scripture. Certainly God didn't dictate those, now did He?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The truth of the matter is that the Bible views the earth as flat and at the center of the universe. That is backed up by over 70 passages. You might want to look sometime at a book titled "Earth Be Not Globe," a popular 19the-century book that argued for a flat earth on the basis of Scripture.

That is not true.
The truth is that the different tribes/nations of the Adam creation has devolved, and risen to great technical heights, and devolved again, all over the globe, as nations that forgot God were turned into hell [Psalm 9].. Even the names of their kings have been forgotten.
The book, "Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings", has copies of ancient maps proving ancient man knew the earth was a globe, and even a map of Antarctica from ancient times [but from after the flood], could only have been done using satellite technology.
It is silly to believe ancient man was stupid, dumb, and evolving, and did not stretch himself out to discover all he could about the world he came into his being in.
Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun, it has all been done by those who came before, and there is nothing -really absolutely nothing- that anyone can say "see, this is new".
It is forgotten, and a new nation rises and does the same, and man thinks he is the first, but the evidence is all over the globe that it has all been done before -again and again.
Man spread over the breaking up land mass after the fall of the tower of Babel, being separated by the confounding of the mother tongue into, at first, 70 tongues for the nations/tribes, to over 6,000 today; but as they spread and built cities and nations, and developed their lands, they traded their goods all over the globe. The Word says that the king of Tyre traded the grain of the Nile -and other things- to the coasts across the seas. There were massive ships that traveled the oceans, and massive seaports in coastal areas, and in South America proof of such is underwater today, with canals that could dock and offload the huge ocean going cargo ships. You can find pics of those ruins of underwater cities online, but I first read it in a book that had pictures of those underwater cities and seaports -I forgot the name, but it's on a shelf in a bookcase in my house, somewhere....... God said they traded across the seas in Ezekiel.
Ancient sea kings knew how to get around a globe, and had ways and means to do so, besides the stars.
There are many proofs of sea trade between the continents. Sea travel to the western continents [as Plato, I think it was, called the America's] was going on in the day of Christ even, for the Gospel was taken to the nations of the world even at that time. The dark ages caused the eventual stop of sea travel, and the burning of libraries by the barbarians caused the generations coming after to even forget the former connections with the western continent, but proofs in histories and artifacts abound of travel across the oceans and around the globe.

The Word of God is centered on Israel, and God's plan to redeem the entire Adam creation by His Messiah's Atonement, but man spread around the globe even as God divided the one land mass into the different continents, after Babel.

 

[rakovsky]

Yes, but who is to determine who the false teachers are? As far as I am concerned, your statement that God authored Scripture is way, way off, hence, false You are simply going on the dictation theory of inspiration,

I never said I taught dictation theory, and I am aware of the difference.
Orthodoxy teaches that the prophets were inspired by the Spirit.
I think that's rather open ended, whether you want to see it as dictated. St Basil said that inspiration did not work as robotic involuntary possession. He also taught an open ended position on the flat earth issue IIRC.

 

[SkyWriting]

Also, there is the matter of about 100 major contradictions in Scripture. Certainly God didn't dictate those, now did He?

I've checked into the contradictions, and none fit the definition of "contradiction."
You'd think someone would have looked up the word first.
Maybe even you.

con·tra·dic·tion
ˌkäntrəˈdikSH(ə)n/
noun

--a combination of statements, ideas, or features of a situation that are opposed to one another.
"the proposed new system suffers from a set of internal contradictions"

--a person, thing, or situation in which inconsistent elements are present.
"the paradox of using force to overcome force is a real contradiction"

--the statement of a position opposite to one already made.
"the second sentence appears to be in flat contradiction of the first"
synonyms: denial, refutation, rebuttal, countering
"a contradiction of his statement"

 

[SkyWriting]

The truth of the matter is that the Bible views the earth as flat and at the center of the universe. That is backed up by over 70 passages. You might want to look sometime at a book titled "Earth Be Not Globe," a popular 19the-century book that argued for a flat earth on the basis of Scripture.

No such title. One would think you'd check on that
if one was a careful researcher.

 

[miamited]

Yes, but who is to determine who the false teachers are? As far as I am concerned, your statement that God authored Scripture is way, way off, hence, false You are simply going on the dictation theory of inspiration, which can and has been questioned in many respects, especially as Scripture does not describe the inspiration process. Also, there is the matter of about 100 major contradictions in Scripture. Certainly God didn't dictate those, now did He?

Hi hoghead,

Well, it's in keeping with what the Scriptures say about themselves. Dictation conjures an image of a secretary sitting in front of someone taking down word for word what the speaker says and that probably isn't the actuality of how the thoughts and ideas and words conveyed in the Scriptures were written down. But, honestly I've never been led by the Holy Spirit in such a manner, nor anyone else alive that I know of, so understanding the reality of the experience is difficult to know or explain. Paul said that the writers wrote as they were led along by the Spirit. Did that 'leading' come to their minds like we would understand dictation? I don't know.

How do we know who are the false teachers and who makes that determination? We have two sources by which we can consider a teaching false. The Scriptures and the Holy Spirit. The first is fairly clear to show others. The second not so much. But it's left up to the individual to make the determination using these two sources.

Now, as to Peter and his rebuke and warning concerning some not understanding the Scriptures and teaching false ideas concerning them. That is also up to the individual to determine through the use of the two aforementioned sources. I I have found that Prayer can be a powerful weapon in this. The Scriptures tell us that the things of God are spiritually known. That's not something that one can pull out of a book or drawer and show another. Jesus told us that it was the Spirit's job to convict us of both sin and righteousness. Again, that's not some physical piece of evidence that one can show to another.

What I know, and yes, you are free to think 'believe' for my word 'know', is that the Scriptures are without error. When I was first born again, I spent time in prayer with my new Father and His Spirit. I pleaded with Him to give me an unquenchable thirst to know Him and His word. From that moment, through about 2 years, I read and read the Scriptures with what I can only describe as a spiritual thirst to know them. Each time I sat down to read I prayed for understanding and wisdom concerning the Scriptures. It certainly seemed to me that God had answered my prayer.

I was raised in public school and had, for the first 40 years of my life, believed in evolution and old age universe ideas that I had been taught. Shortly after beginning my marathon of reading and study, all of that changed. Many, many, many of my ideas and understandings about the world, its people, sin and righteousness were turned up on end. I began to see this creation of my Father's as He sees it. I began to understand that the Scriptures were not just some hodgepodge of various writings across many centuries by many different men, but a fairly clear and concise outliine of a plan. A plan that was begun with God's first utterance of 'Let there be...' to its fulfillment in the future of God's voice saying, 'Now the dwelling of God is..." I could clearly see and understand that this existence that we live is within the parameters of this plan.

A very important part of this plan was God's work to reveal Himself to man before we come to the day of His judgment of man. That revelation was given through the Scriptures. God called a man by the name of Abram and began, through him, to build a body of people who would be His people. He was going to use these people to accomplish the task of revealing Himself to man through the written word. He was also to use these people to accomplish the necessary sacrifice for sin. The Jews were to be God's people and they are. Of course, just as not everyone who calls themselves a christian is a child of God, so to, not everyone who calls themselves a Jew is a child of God.

Now, you aren't likely to agree with all of this and that's quite ok with me. But, you asked and I gave an answer for the hope that is within me. My Father has been faithful to me and I fully intend to be as faithful as I can be in this wicked fleshly body with its wicked heart and desires as I can be. It's just a very, very, small offering that I can make that I believe that God asks of each one of us who would desire to be called one of His children. John wrote to us that only those born of the Spirit of God have the right to be called children of God and I believe that one of the first evidences of that Spirit indwelling is agreement with God and gaining an understanding of all that He has done and is doing. Jesus said that he would bring to us all truth. All truth.

That's what I believe and I believe that the Spirit of God has convicted me of. Can I prove that to you? Not likely. Being born again is an experience that one can only know if one has been born again. It's not really an experience that one can gain understanding of by explanation. I believe that's what Jesus was telling us when he told us that the Spirit is like a wind. No one knows where he comes from or where he goes.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Hoghead1]

Hi hoghead,

Well, it's in keeping with what the Scriptures say about themselves. Dictation conjures an image of a secretary sitting in front of someone taking down word for word what the speaker says and that probably isn't the actuality of how the thoughts and ideas and words conveyed in the Scriptures were written down. But, honestly I've never been led by the Holy Spirit in such a manner, nor anyone else alive that I know of, so understanding the reality of the experience is difficult to know or explain. Paul said that the writers wrote as they were led along by the Spirit. Did that 'leading' come to their minds like we would understand dictation? I don't know.

How do we know who are the false teachers and who makes that determination? We have two sources by which we can consider a teaching false. The Scriptures and the Holy Spirit. The first is fairly clear to show others. The second not so much. But it's left up to the individual to make the determination using these two sources.

Now, as to Peter and his rebuke and warning concerning some not understanding the Scriptures and teaching false ideas concerning them. That is also up to the individual to determine through the use of the two aforementioned sources. I I have found that Prayer can be a powerful weapon in this. The Scriptures tell us that the things of God are spiritually known. That's not something that one can pull out of a book or drawer and show another. Jesus told us that it was the Spirit's job to convict us of both sin and righteousness. Again, that's not some physical piece of evidence that one can show to another.

What I know, and yes, you are free to think 'believe' for my word 'know', is that the Scriptures are without error. When I was first born again, I spent time in prayer with my new Father and His Spirit. I pleaded with Him to give me an unquenchable thirst to know Him and His word. From that moment, through about 2 years, I read and read the Scriptures with what I can only describe as a spiritual thirst to know them. Each time I sat down to read I prayed for understanding and wisdom concerning the Scriptures. It certainly seemed to me that God had answered my prayer.

I was raised in public school and had, for the first 40 years of my life, believed in evolution and old age universe ideas that I had been taught. Shortly after beginning my marathon of reading and study, all of that changed. Many, many, many of my ideas and understandings about the world, its people, sin and righteousness were turned up on end. I began to see this creation of my Father's as He sees it. I began to understand that the Scriptures were not just some hodgepodge of various writings across many centuries by many different men, but a fairly clear and concise outliine of a plan. A plan that was begun with God's first utterance of 'Let there be...' to its fulfillment in the future of God's voice saying, 'Now the dwelling of God is..." I could clearly see and understand that this existence that we live is within the parameters of this plan.

A very important part of this plan was God's work to reveal Himself to man before we come to the day of His judgment of man. That revelation was given through the Scriptures. God called a man by the name of Abram and began, through him, to build a body of people who would be His people. He was going to use these people to accomplish the task of revealing Himself to man through the written word. He was also to use these people to accomplish the necessary sacrifice for sin. The Jews were to be God's people and they are. Of course, just as not everyone who calls themselves a christian is a child of God, so to, not everyone who calls themselves a Jew is a child of God.

Now, you aren't likely to agree with all of this and that's quite ok with me. But, you asked and I gave an answer for the hope that is within me. My Father has been faithful to me and I fully intend to be as faithful as I can be in this wicked fleshly body with its wicked heart and desires as I can be. It's just a very, very, small offering that I can make that I believe that God asks of each one of us who would desire to be called one of His children. John wrote to us that only those born of the Spirit of God have the right to be called children of God and I believe that one of the first evidences of that Spirit indwelling is agreement with God and gaining an understanding of all that He has done and is doing. Jesus said that he would bring to us all truth. All truth.

That's what I believe and I believe that the Spirit of God has convicted me of. Can I prove that to you? Not likely. Being born again is an experience that one can only know if one has been born again. It's not really an experience that one can gain understanding of by explanation. I believe that's what Jesus was telling us when he told us that the Spirit is like a wind. No one knows where he comes from or where he goes.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Thanks for sharing. Can't say as I fully agree. Largely, I see you as having adopted a fundamentalaistic Christian ideology, which is ok, if it works for you. But it sure didn't for me and many others. Also, I strongly question the tenets of fundamentalaistic ideology. For example, I don't agree with the inerrancy of Scripture. You have to remember that others, too, are moved by the Spirit and not all feel led to Christian fundamentalism.

 

[miamited]

Thanks for sharing. Can't say as I fully agree. Largely, I see you as having adopted a fundamentalaistic Christian ideology, which is ok, if it works for you. But it sure didn't for me and many others. Also, I strongly question the tenets of fundamentalaistic ideology. For example, I don't agree with the inerrancy of Scripture. You have to remember that others, too, are moved by the Spirit and not all feel led to Christian fundamentalism.

Your closing statement: You have to remember that others, too, are moved by the Spirit and not all feel led to Christian fundamentalism.

I don't know whether it's really a named ideology such as 'christian fundamentalism'. What I do know is that there is a truth revealed in the Scriptures. That truth is not - this for this person and that for that person. When you move away from the fundamental teachings of the Scriptures largely because of lack of understanding or prideful resistance, then the real question one must 'remember to ask' is: Which is based on the truth of the Scriptures.

Sure, there are many different understandings of the what the Scriptures say among those carrying the name of christian, but the truth is that there is only one truth. Who has it.

You know, there was a time that the King of England wanted to divorce his wife. The Catholic organization told him that he couldn't do that. Now, instead of the King of England accepting that what he was seeking to do was, in fact, against the will of God regarding marriage, he started his own church that would allow him to get a divorce and still be in good standing with God. Do you think that what he did made any difference to how God saw the situation?

The more liberal views can run the gamut. Did you perchance look at my reference for John Shelby Spong? Yes, he's but one example of the 'new age, new thinking' about the 'truth' of God, and his is certainly completely 180 from the fundamental understanding of the Scriptures and what they tell us, but...

Is there one truth? Or are there many and it's a matter of one's opinion as to which 'truth' is the right one for them?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[yeshuasavedme]

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c015.html

I looked at your link and it is okay -to a poiint- but like many creationists, it is stuck in tradition on many points, instead of the Word of God....
the heavens are the circle of the earth, and the heavens circled the earth from the beginning, in Genesis, when they were not even called/named "shamayim/two waters", yet.

In Genesis 1, the heavens and earth are created, but then the synopsis of their creation is given.
There is not dry, no name for the earth, and the heavens are the firmament of His powers.
The globe is not just covered in waters, but the globe is "the waters" out of which all things are created in 6 normal evenings and mornings of creation week.

The heavens were suspended by His powers, but not yet called heavens until they were stretched out from the earth between the divided/cut in two waters of the globe, on day 2 of creation week.

The earth was not formed until day 3, when the waters were commanded to be gathered together in one place, and the "dry" to appear.
The dry was named/called "earth".

It had to be tremendous amounts of waters that were created as a globe suspended by His powers. the heavens were not stretched out until day 2, and the light called into being on day 1, and divided from the darkness was set circling the globe immediately, making evening and morning, night and day =I Day.
so the firmament of His powers were circling the globe from day 1.

The light circled the globe from day 1, and so did the darkness.

The light was stretched out with the firmament between the cut in two waters on day 2, and the waters are still above the heavens -and there are at least three heavens/stories stretched out from the earth.

The sun was not even made until day 4, with the moon, and set in the heavens then. The earth never has circled the sun, nor tilted, nor revolved, but is the center of the creation, and all over the globe, heaven is up. From heaven, earth is always down.

So biblically speaking, there is no rotation of the earth around the sun.
From the beginning of creation, the heavens/firmament circled the earth, and still does, revolving around the earth once each day.

In fact, God tells us by the Psalmist that "He hath set His dwelling place/tabernacle in the sun"

After Galileo, the English translations bought into the lie of Galileo, and changed the Word of God and garbled the Psalm so that it is pure nonsense, but the Hebrew says, "He hath set His tabernacle in the sun".
The Hebrew, the Septuagint, the Latin Vulgate, the Douay Rheims Englsih all say, "He hath set His tabernacle in the sun"....and many other passages also correlate that.
That is Psalm 18 in the above mentioned Bibles, but Psalm 19 in English translations after Douay Rheims.

 

[StanJ]

In Genesis 1, the heavens and earth are created, but then the synopsis of their creation is given.
There is not dry, no name for the earth, and the heavens are the firmament of His powers.
The globe is not just covered in waters, but the globe is "the waters" out of which all things are created in 6 normal evenings and mornings of creation week.

The globe is a Celestial body covered in water and for which gravity was already in place as it was in the entire universe. That would be the extent of what is pointed to in Gen 1:1-2, where creation started.
Seems you don't have a problem with the canopy of water so we can move on to the next issue which is God gathering the land into one place.
V9-10 shows the land was there when God gathered the waters into one place, or actually several places, that he called Seas. The land appeared when God move the waters.

The heavens were suspended by His powers, but not yet called heavens until they were stretched out from the earth between the divided/cut in two waters of the globe, on day 2 of creation week.
The earth was not formed until day 3, when the waters were commanded to be gathered together in one place, and the "dry" to appear.
The dry was named/called "earth".

What happened on day 1 was the creation of the heavens and the earth as Gen 1:1 states; "In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth." What happens in verse 9-10 is God gathering the waters into individual places on the Earth calling those separated bodies seas. What was not sea was called land. All the land was on the earth and did does not include anything below sea level.

The light circled the globe from day 1, and so did the darkness.
The light was stretched out with the firmament between the cut in two waters on day 2, and the waters are still above the heavens -and there are at least three heavens/stories stretched out from the earth.

Light was caused by God giving power to the Stars or what would be termed today as Fusion.

The sun was not even made until day 4, with the moon, and set in the heavens then. The earth never has circled the sun, nor tilted, nor revolved, but is the center of the creation, and all over the globe, heaven is up. From heaven, earth is always down.

All suns in the entire universe were made on day 1 and given their power. The Earth has always circled the sun just as the Moon has always circle the Earth and the fact that there were solar eclipses dating back as far as we have records shows that that was the case. What God did on day four was allow the light from the sun, moon and stars to shine throught the water canopy he created on day 2.

So biblically speaking, there is no rotation of the earth around the sun.
From the beginning of creation, the heavens/firmament circled the earth, and still does, revolving around the earth once each day.

This is so ludicrous I won't bother addressing the obvious.

In fact, God tells us by the Psalmist that "He hath set His dwelling place/tabernacle in the sun"
After Galileo, the English translations bought into the lie of Galileo, and changed the Word of God and garbled the Psalm so that it is pure nonsense, but the Hebrew says, "He hath set His tabernacle in the sun".

The proper translation of Psalm 19:4, is; In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.

I think it's best you learn how to distinguish between the symbolic and metaphorical parts of scripture against what is really literal.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The globe is a Celestial body covered in water and for which gravity was already in place as it was in the entire universe. That would be the extent of what is pointed to in Gen 1:1-2, where creation started.

I do not read anywhere in the Word that it was covered in water, but that it was waters. Every elemental building "block" so to speak, is found in the waters. It was the waters that God created with the elements for all that was to be formed out of the waters within them. Earth was not called earth until day 3, when the waters below were commanded to be gathered together in one place, and "the dry" to appear -not mud, either, but "the Dry", which God then named earth.
Earth was brought out of the waters as dry land, complete with mountains. The waters were then called "Seas" so the seas themselves are then named.

The half of the waters of creation are carried above the stretched out heavens on day 2 of creation week. Those waters were not a "canopy" for earth, which is what tradition has made a fable about, but are still above the stretched out heavens, as the Psalmist states for us...

In Genesis 1, nothing was formed when the waters were made, until out of the waters each named thing was called to be, and then named.

So there was no earth until day 3. Not as the Scripture tells it, but earth was called into its elemental form on day 3, out of the waters.
It is not existing in it's form until God calls it to be, and then names it.