LDS Please explain what the atonement means for Mormons.

[Jane_Doe]

What straw men arguments???

Examples in just one post underlined:

Thanks for pointing out that a mormon "apostle" was wrong and that the mormon publication "Ensign" was wrong. [Staff edit]. So how is it that an apostle and publication of the mormon church are wrong if they are supposedly getting their information from God?

Being in agreement only in part is not being in agreement. (And we're not even really in agreement in part.) And you admitted above that you disagree with Richard Scott, so you're not even in agreement with him.

Are you now trying to deflect by making accusations against me? Why are you not listening to what I'm actually saying?

You're parading straw men arguments around which aren't actual LDS beliefs. If you want to talk about actual LDS beliefs and get your fact straight, I'm game.

That's fine, but they are about other mormon beliefs than the ones we are talking about in this thread.

They relate directly to the Elder Scott quote. I thought you wanted to talk about that?

 

[Rescued One]

Do you think you can attain salvation without repentance and obedience?

Romans 2:8
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Do you think a person is saved to be contentious, disobedient, indignant, and full of wrath? We don't.

Ephesians 4
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath(already) forgiven you.

Hebrews 5:9
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The unbelieving might do some good deeds, but they don't know Him and aren't obeying Him.

2 Thessalonians 1:8
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The gospel is taught in the Bible; Mormonism isn't the gospel.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Examples in just one post underlined:

You're parading straw men arguments around which aren't actual LDS beliefs. If you want to talk about actual LDS beliefs and get your fact straight, I'm game.

What you quote of me does not show any straw man arguments. You're just making the allegation with no evidence or backup - it's another form of deflection.

I am talking about actual mormon beliefs. I quoted the mormon apostle Richard Scott as saying that obedience to the law is required for Christ's atonement to be complete. That is a mormon belief, stated by a mormon "apostle", in a mormon publication which is available through the mormon lds-dot-org website.

If you were really "game" to talk about that mormon belief you would have by now, but instead you've been dodging and deflecting.

They relate directly to the Elder Scott quote. I thought you wanted to talk about that?

They don't relate directly to the Elder Scott quote. They don't relate at all to his quote. I did want to talk about that but those verses are irrelevant to his quote. Talk about a straw man, that's one of the biggest ones in this thread, along with all your straw man arguments.

 

[Jane_Doe]

What you quote of me does not show any straw man arguments.

Oh contrair. For example, you keep strawmaning the Elder Scott quote to be in conflict than the 4th Article of Faith and conflict with the Bible, and want me to say how one or both or wrong. When the reality is that they are talking about the exact same thing. The "contradiction" in only in your own mind because you're not listening to what actual LDS beliefs are.

I am talking about actual mormon beliefs. I quoted the mormon apostle Richard Scott as saying that obedience to the law is required for Christ's atonement to be complete.

Which you agree with: a person must accept Christ. And yet you complain about us believing that too.

They don't relate directly to the Elder Scott quote. They don't relate at all to his quote. I did want to talk about that but those verses are irrelevant to his quote.

The verses are talking about obedience to Christ's law, the exact same thing Elder Scott is talking about! They are FAR from "irrelevant".

Romans 2:8
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Hebrews 5:9
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

2 Thessalonians 1:8
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Oh contrair. For example, you keep strawmaning the Elder Scott quote to be in conflict than the 4th Article of Faith and conflict with the Bible, and want me to say how one or both or wrong. When the reality is that they are talking about the exact same thing. The "contradiction" in only in your own mind because you're not listening to what actual LDS beliefs are.

Au contraire.

First, I am not "strawmaning"[sic] the quote. The quote states very explicitly that Christ's Atonement can not reach it's complete miracle unless a person obeys the law. It's very clear. Article 4 does not state this. I don't know what Article 4 has to do with Christ's Atonement reaching its complete miracle. You are the one who brings up Article 4 because it is YOUR straw man in this thread. I am not asking about Article 4 or discussing Article 4, you are the one trying to obfuscate by hiding behind Article 4.

I am talking about a teaching by a mormon apostle that is in a mormon official publication that is provided on the mormon official website. Seems you have a problem with this official mormon teaching and you're trying to avoid talking about it.

Which you agree with: a person must accept Christ. And yet you complain about us believing that too.

I don't complain about that and haven't complained about that. If I have then show where. If not, then stop making things up.

The verses are talking about obedience to Christ's law, the exact same thing Elder Scott is talking about! They are FAR from "irrelevant".

Romans 2:8
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Hebrews 5:9
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

2 Thessalonians 1:8
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

None of these verses talk about obedience being required for Christ's Atonement. None. Not one.

It seems you and WWA think that any old verse that happens to have the word "obey" in it relates directly to the Scott quote. It doesn't work that way. Obedience is never show in the Bible, including in all the verses you provided, as being required for Christ's Atonement to be complete. Not once is that in the Bible and not once in any of your provided verses.

Another straw man on your part. You just throw some verses up there that have the word "obey" in them but that don't actually address the issue of obedience being a requirement to make Christ's Atonement have full effect and then you act as though they are evidence, although they are not. Not at all.

Are you going to just keep going in circles with this and trying to introduce unrelated things (like Article 4) or are you going to talk about the Richard Scott quote?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Au contraire.

First, I am not "strawmaning"[sic] the quote. The quote states very explicitly that Christ's Atonement can not reach it's complete miracle unless a person obeys the law. It's very clear. Article 4 does not state this.

Article 4 states the the foundations of this law.

I don't know what Article 4 has to do with Christ's Atonement reaching its complete miracle.

In order for a the Atonement to go into effect for a person's life they must first have faith in Christ. You believe this as well.

I am not asking about Article 4 or discussing Article 4, you are the one trying to obfuscate by hiding behind Article 4.
I am talking about a teaching by a mormon apostle that is in a mormon official publication that is provided on the mormon official website. Seems you have a problem with this official mormon teaching and you're trying to avoid talking about it.

You're the one who wants to talk about the law. That is summarized in Article 4 and the background behind the Scott sermon. You can't take a quote and then choose to ignore all the foundation behind it.

I don't complain about that and haven't complained about that. If I have then show where. If not, then stop making things up.

Exhibit A:

Your religion teaches that "obedience to the law" is something that must happen with each person in order for Christ's Atonement to have reach it's complete miracle. That is in direct opposition to what the Bible teaches and what Christians believe.

None of these verses talk about obedience being required for Christ's Atonement. None. Not one.

Hebrews 5:9 Says how Christ is the author of eternal salvation to those who obey Him. The exact same thing Elder Scott was talking about.
Romans 2:8 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8 talks about what happens to them who do not obey Christ's law (they suffer His indignation and wrath).

 

[Rescued One]

...I could pile up tons of good works but they could not erase one sin so I could not enter God’s presence. I can not earn my salvation by works, I am in a hopeless state...

Doctrine and Covenants 25
15 Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.

As ArmenianJohn pointed out, Richard G. Scott (Quorum of the Twelve), said:
The demands of justice for broken law can be satisfied through mercy, earned by your continual repentance and obedience to the laws of God. Such repentance and obedience are absolutely essential for the Atonement to work its complete miracle in your life. The Redeemer can settle your individual account with justice and grant forgiveness through the merciful path of your repentance. Through the Atonement you can live in a world where justice assures that you will retain what you earn by obedience. Through His mercy you can resolve the consequences of broken laws.
“The Atonement Can Secure Your Peace and Happiness,”
Ensign, Nov 2006, p. 41-42, and General Conference, Oct 2006

 

[Jane_Doe]

Doctrine and Covenants 25
15 Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.

As ArmenianJohn pointed out, Richard G. Scott (Quorum of the Twelve), said:
The demands of justice for broken law can be satisfied through mercy, earned by your continual repentance and obedience to the laws of God. Such repentance and obedience are absolutely essential for the Atonement to work its complete miracle in your life. The Redeemer can settle your individual account with justice and grant forgiveness through the merciful path of your repentance. Through the Atonement you can live in a world where justice assures that you will retain what you earn by obedience. Through His mercy you can resolve the consequences of broken laws.
“The Atonement Can Secure Your Peace and Happiness,”
Ensign, Nov 2006, p. 41-42, and General Conference, Oct 2006

The 4th Article of Faith highly applies here.

 

[withwonderingawe]

I really don't understand why you people believe you can be saved without repenting of your sins?

Do you really think you can do some good works and then go out and commit adultery and still be saved?

 

[Rescued One]

I really don't understand why you people believe you can be saved without repenting of your sins?

Do you really think you can do some good works and then go out and commit adultery and still be saved?

Does Satan lead us to repentance or does God? Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

I've never committed adultery. Have you ever sinned since your baptism?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Does Satan lead us to repentance or does God? Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

I've never committed adultery. Have you ever sinned since your baptism?

This post does not makes sense. WWA is explaining that a person must repent of all their sins. If you disagree with this, which sins do you believe you may take to Heaven?

 

[TasteForTruth]

People have different views regarding the atonement. Please give non-Mormons the LDS perspective.

Jesus' atonement means for Mormons what it means for any Christian who believes the testimony of the prophets recorded in the Bible: Reconciliation with our Heavenly Father.

 

[Rescued One]

Jesus' atonement means for Mormons what it means for any Christian who believes the testimony of the prophets recorded in the Bible: Reconciliation with our Heavenly Father.

You should know by now that you can't give us short answers which line up with the Bible and omit the Mormon caveats.

 

[Rescued One]

...

 

[TasteForTruth]

You should know by now that you can't give us short answers which line up with the Bible and omit the Mormon caveats.

For Christians of all flavors, the atonement means just what I said it means. If someone is interested in why there are diversities in Christianity regarding how we are reconciled with God through the atonement, that can surely be discussed (or discussed again, as the case may be). But your question was simple and so received a simple response.

 

[Rescued One]

D&C 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Verse 21 is saying that you have to earn every blessing. It's kind of like earning a merit badge.

D&C 82
10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

“The demands of justice for broken law can be satisfied through mercy, earned by your continual repentance and obedience to the laws of God. Such repentance and obedience are absolutely essential for the Atonement to work its complete miracle in your life.”
Mormon Apostle Richard G. Scott, “The Atonement Can Secure Your Peace and Happiness,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 2006, p.42

To be saved—or to gain salvation—means to be saved from physical and spiritual death. Because of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected and saved from physical death. People may also be saved from individual spiritual death through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, by their faith in Him, by living in obedience to the laws and ordinances of His gospel, and by serving Him.
LDS Bible Distionary

Resurrection, or immortality, comes to every man and every woman as an unconditional gift.

Eternal life, or celestial glory or exaltation, is a conditional gift. Conditions of this gift have been established by the Lord, who said, “If you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.” 13 Those qualifying conditions include faith in the Lord, repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, and remaining faithful to the ordinances and covenants of the temple.

No man in this Church can obtain the highest degree of celestial glory without a worthy woman who is sealed to him. This temple ordinance enables eventual exaltation for both of them.
Salvation and Exaltation - Ensign May 2008 - ensign

Christian view:
The result of Jesus’ sacrifice is that our relationship has changed from enmity to friendship.

John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

IOW, the one who believes is reconciled to God. The price of reconciliation was paid on the cross.

 

[Rescued One]

Through the Atonement, the Savior paid the price for the transgression in the Garden of Eden (see Moses 6:53). He has given us the assurance of resurrection and the promise that, based on our faithfulness,* we can return to dwell in the presence of our Heavenly Father forever.
True to the Faith Original Sin

*proven by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Mormon church.

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
Articles of Faith 1

 

[BigDaddy4]

I really don't understand why you people believe you can be saved without repenting of your sins?

Do you really think you can do some good works and then go out and commit adultery and still be saved?

Only no one here really said that. So, way to continue with the theme of lds strawmen!

 

[withwonderingawe]

Only no one here really said that. So, way to continue with the theme of lds strawmen!

phoe keeps complaining that we feel we have to repent and obey, I don't get it. You are not trully saved if you don't repent!

 

[Rescued One]

phoe keeps complaining that we feel we have to repent and obey, I don't get it. You are not trully saved if you don't repent!

That isn't true. I haven't been complaining; I've only been explaining to people who don't understand the new birth.

By the way, is your user name "with?"