LDS Please explain what the atonement means for Mormons.

[Jane_Doe]

Mormons don't tell people the requirements for eternal life until after they baptize them and they've been in the church awhile.

The fact that majority of the quotes you have here come from the Sunday School manual investigating people are given seems to contradict your point...

 

[fatboys]

Mormons don't tell people the requirements for eternal life until after they baptize them and they've been in the church awhile.

“Exaltation is available only to righteous members of the Church of Jesus Christ; only to those who accept the gospel; only to those who have their endowments in holy temples of God and have been sealed for eternity and who then continue to live righteously throughout their lives” (Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness [1969], 246)...

The Blessings of Eternal Marriage
President Lorenzo Snow taught: “When two Latter-day Saints are united together in marriage, promises are made to them concerning their offspring that reach from eternity to eternity. They are promised that they shall have the power and the right to govern and control and administer salvation and exaltation and glory to their offspring, worlds without end. And what offspring they do not have here, undoubtedly there will be opportunities to have them hereafter. What else could man wish? A man and a woman, in the other life, having celestial bodies, free from sickness and disease, glorified and beautified beyond description, standing in the midst of their posterity, governing and controlling them, administering life, exaltation and glory worlds without end” (Deseret News, 13 Mar. 1897; quoted by Spencer W. Kimball in The Miracle of Forgiveness [1969], 246)...

Teacher Preparation
Before presenting this lesson:
1. Study Gospel Principles chapter 38, “Eternal Marriage,” and chapter 40, “Temple Work and Family History.”
2. Study Doctrine and Covenants D&C 132:14–20.

Gospel Principles Chapter 38: Eternal Marriage

Gospel Principles Chapter 40: Temple Work and Family History

Doctrine and Covenants 132:14-20

They list the first principles and ordinances, but they don't tell you all the commandments.

Faith and repentance, baptism and bestowal of the Holy Ghost constitute the heart of the gospel of Jesus Christ, being the essential requirements for entry into the celestial kingdom.
The First Principles and Ordinances of the Gospel - Ensign Oct. 2000 - ensign

Note:
The celestial kingdom is comprised of those who have eternal life in the presence of God, and those who only earned a place in the two lower levels of that kingdom. Others don't even make it to the celestial kingdom, but go to one of three other places:

Terrestrial kingdom
Telestial kingdom
Outer Darkness

Doctrines of Salvation, Volume II (Joseph Fielding Smith):

COMPLETE OBEDIENCE BRINGS ETERNAL LIFE. But to be exalted one must keep the whole law. This is the great love he shows forth for his children: notwithstanding they sin and close their eyes against the truth, yet his arm is stretched out still, and he will feel after them and bring them back if they will keep his commandments; and if not, he will do for them just the best he can. Is going to bless them with all it is possible to give, and all shall be saved; all others will receive a place somewhere and it will be glorious unto them, but to receive the exaltation of the righteous, in other words eternal life, the commandments of the Lord must be kept in all things.
Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. II, p.6

Celestial Marriage
Marriage and Exaltation
MARRIAGE: THE COVENANT OF EXALTATION.
Marriage, as understood by Latter-day Saints, is a covenant ordained to be everlasting. It is the foundation for eternal exaltation, for without it there could be no eternal progress in the kingdom of God.
The Lord taught Joseph Smith the doctrine of the eternity of the marriage covenant and the perpetuity of the family after death. This revelation has proved a wonderful, if not terrible shock to the believers in the doctrine that at death a man and his wife are forever separated and the family relationship comes to an eternal end. Yet there are very few, if they have natural feelings, who do not hope that the eternity of the family may prove to be a fact.
There is no ordinance connected with the gospel of Jesus Christ of greater importance, of more solemn and sacred nature, and more necessary to the eternal joy of man, than marriage.
Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. II, p. 58

Those without exaltation, don't have eternal life.

Sometimes I just want to shake people. Why is it so hard to understand? Perfect explanations. It does help me understand those at The of Christ didn't get it. Why they were so angry at his teachings and the truths he taught. The leaders who were looking for the messiah were so steeped in their false beliefs that they missed it.

 

[Rescued One]

Sometimes I just want to shake people. Why is it so hard to understand? Perfect explanations. It does help me understand those at The of Christ didn't get it. Why they were so angry at his teachings and the truths he taught. The leaders who were looking for the messiah were so steeped in their false beliefs that they missed it.

Why do you want to shake people? I'm not steeped in false beliefs. I escaped the worst ones. Furthermore, I embrace Christ's truths and teachings.

Very often I'm accused of things that are not true. When I started learning about the Mormon church, the missionaries descended upon my family and baptized me two weeks later. They baptized every family member (age 8 and over) within less than two months. My mother may have attended church twice before leaving for good. When I attended church, the class for new members (I think I was the only new member attending that ward) was reading the book A Marvelous Work and a Wonder by LeGrand Richards. I was a Mormon for fourteen months before anyone told me about humans becoming gods and goddesses. I was shocked, but continued to attend church, paid tithes and fast offerings, kept the Word of Wisdom, and married another convert.

 

[Rescued One]

This is another example of Phobe taking things out of context however;

False accusation.

From our Articles of Faith
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second,Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Now all that is in line with Act 3 and Peter's answer given to the new converts.

You said; "...rather will be the natural outcome of a true repentance..."

Yes that is the goal, that doing good and choosing not to sin becomes a natural part of our daily life. There were those in the Lord's parable who when told they fed the Lord they were puzzled and ask when did we do that? It was just something they did naturally. The others in the parable did not feed the hungry and they were condemned " these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Matt 25

James tells us "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin"

Of all people Christians should know what good is but not always, temptations are put before us and we must with the help of the Holy Spirit choose the good. If we falter there is always the door of repentance, of starting over and moving forward. It's a progression of sanctification, we overcome the flesh's desire to sin.

What the real difference between us is, is that we believe a man can fall from grace through sin and most Evangelicals don't.

In Matt 5 the Lord sets down the New Covenant's laws;

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

He explained the old law was dead and a new one expanding the law was now being set in place.

21 ¶Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

That may seem like a given today but at the time of Jesus that was a whole new level of thought and it had to be taught to them. Each new Christian needs to be taught also and it doesn't hurt for us to be reminded.

" And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain"

That's a lot to comprehend and then to adjusts the attitude. In the middle of the Lord's prayer he says

" And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."

and then adds

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

He said in his be-attitudes

"Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy"

If our hearts can not learn forgiveness of others, if we can not learn charity for others all the faith in the world isn't going to save us.

*But back to Elder Scott's talk and his actual intent. Brother Scott wasn't talking just about salvation in the next life but finding peace in this life. He was comparing life to rock climbing and he compared the laws of God to the anchors a rock climber uses.

"In real life, the anchors are the laws of God that provide protection under all of the challenges that you will face. The rope and carabiners that secure the rope to the anchors represent obedience to those commandments. When you learn those commandments, continue to practice them, and have a plan to avoid danger, you will have a secure means of obtaining protection against Satan’s temptations. You will develop strength of character that will fortify you against transgression. Should you make a wrong move, there need be no enduring problem because of the belaying or help that is available through your repentance.
....... The Redeemer will safely lead you over the most difficult obstacles of life. His laws are absolutely secure anchors of protection that dispel fear and assure success in an otherwise dangerous world. Such a life will certainly provide you peace and happiness."

Then he talks about the Atonement and this explains phobe's question and it really is about consequences for actions.

"Each of us makes mistakes in life. They result in broken eternal laws.(like thou shalt not lie) Justice is that part of Father in Heaven’s plan of happiness that maintains order. It is like gravity to a rock climber, ever present. It is a friend if eternal laws are observed. It responds to your detriment if they are ignored. Justice guarantees that you will receive the blessings you earn for obeying the laws of God. Justice also requires that every broken law be satisfied. When you obey the laws of God, you are blessed, but there is no additional credit earned that can be saved to satisfy the laws that you break. If not resolved, broken laws can cause your life to be miserable and would keep you from returning to God. Only the life, teachings, and particularly the Atonement of Jesus Christ can release you from this otherwise impossible predicament.

The demands of justice for broken law (thou shalt not lie) can be satisfied through mercy, earned by your continual repentance and obedience to the laws of God. Such repentance and obedience are absolutely essential for the Atonement to work its complete miracle in your life. The Redeemer can settle your individual account with justice and grant forgiveness through the merciful path of your repentance. Through the Atonement you can live in a world where justice assures that you will retain what you earn by obedience. Through His mercy you can resolve the consequences of broken laws."

Okay I lied about something, I can not go out and feed the poor more and expect I'm being forgiven of that lie if I don't repent of it. I have to go to the Lord and say I lied please forgive me and help me not to lie again. Then as I continue not to lie the Lord's mercy takes effect and I'm forgiven. However if I continue to lie then the Lord will not forgive me, I have to truly repent.

Now since I've learned not to lie people begin to trust me and I have a happier life in general and I don't have to suffer for the sin of lying in the next life. Repentance is a major part of being obedient, it's not about counting up brownie points but about making changes to your life so we walk more Christ like.

what we are talking about when we say " what you earn by obedience" we mean peace in your life. There is also the reward in the eternities

"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life" Rom 2

I like the "patient continuance" it means it doesn't happen all at once but over time. I'd say 99% of the people who live on this earth do some good at some point, that good is not forgotten by justice. Each will receive a reward for the good which they did no mater how small.

We don't disagree with the Bible. But what Mormons do is avoid mentioning the non-biblical Mormon requirements for eternal life. Some tiny so-called reward when God doesn't want you in His presence isn't really a reward.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Very often I'm accused of things that are not true. When I started learning about the Mormon church, the missionaries descended upon my family and baptized me two weeks later. They baptized every family member (age 8 and over) within less than two months. My mother may have attended church twice before leaving for good.

So you rushed into things, didn't even learn the basics, and you want to blame us for your haste?

When I attended church, the class for new members (I think I was the only new member attending that ward) was reading the book A Marvelous Work and a Wonder by Talmage.

I find that HIGHLY doubtful.

I was a Mormon for fourteen months before anyone told me about humans becoming gods and goddesses..

So 14 months and you still hadn't read the basic scriptures or materials? That's on you, not us.

 

[Jane_Doe]

We don't disagree with the Bible.

I'm still waiting to have you explain how your theology doesn't starkly conflict with John 3:16.

But what Mormons do is avoid mentioning the non-biblical Mormon requirements for eternal life. Some tiny so-called reward when God doesn't want you in His presence isn't really a reward.

Yeah we "avoid" it. We just sending out ~70,000 full time missionaries, let alone part-time people, distribute plenty of free literature explaining things (both hard and soft copies), host a free 24/7 chat feature, plenty of free sermons on the matter... now, how is that "avoiding"?

 

[withwonderingawe]

I was a Mormon for fourteen months before anyone told me about humans becoming gods and goddesses.

It's in the Bible how could you not know

 

[Jane_Doe]

It's in the Bible how could you not know

Did you not read the Bible?

 

[Rescued One]

It's in the Bible how could you not know

Here's where you are wrong. We've told the Mormons posting here that there is only ONE God.

God tells those who believe the Bible that He is the only God. It seems to me that if anyone knows, God does.

Isaiah 44
8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

 

[fatboys]

Why do you want to shake people? I'm not steeped in false beliefs. I escaped the worst ones. Furthermore, I embrace Christ's truths and teachings.

Very often I'm accused of things that are not true. When I started learning about the Mormon church, the missionaries descended upon my family and baptized me two weeks later. They baptized every family member (age 8 and over) within less than two months. My mother may have attended church twice before leaving for good. When I attended church, the class for new members (I think I was the only new member attending that ward) was reading the book A Marvelous Work and a Wonder by Talmage. I was a Mormon for fourteen months before anyone told me about humans becoming gods and goddesses. I was shocked, but continued to attend church, paid tithes and fast offerings, kept the Word of Wisdom, and married another convert.

Pheobe they didn't hold a gun to you or your family's head. Your fourteen years old and your mother only attended twice before she left the church? But you kept going even after you were shocked about the potential of becoming more like Christ? Did you think that you could learn all the doctrines in two weeks? And how many years did you stay? Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

It's in the Bible how could you not know

No, it's not in the Bible. [Staff edit].

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Did you not read the Bible?

Did you? Apparently not.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

I'm still waiting to have you explain how your theology doesn't starkly conflict with John 3:16.

Yeah we "avoid" it. We just sending out ~70,000 full time missionaries, let alone part-time people, distribute plenty of free literature explaining things (both hard and soft copies), host a free 24/7 chat feature, plenty of free sermons on the matter... now, how is that "avoiding"?

LOL, hilarious - your missionaries are trained to do exactly what Phoebe said, which is to avoid all the weird, anti-Christian beliefs that mormonism teaches and instead try to find only beliefs that are common with Christianity in order to deceive converts into converting. They hide all the weird stuff and they are trained to do so. That's why I give them fits whenever they try to talk to me and I bring up their weird beliefs - they can't deny it (although sometimes they do lie by denying their weird beliefs) but at the same time they are trying to convince me they believe the same thing as Christians like me. It drives them nuts. [Staff edit].

Phoebe is dead on in describing the mormon religion's M.O. and it apparently has hit a nerve...

All that you mention - 70,000 missionaries, plenty of free literature, 24/7 chat, etc. - is designed to CONTROL the information that goes out to non-mormons in such a way that it DOES hide the weird, peculiarly mormon beliefs that separate Mormonism from Christianity. What you give as proof is actually proof for Phoebe's point.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Here's where you are wrong. We've told the Mormons posting here that there is only ONE God.

God tells those who believe the Bible that He is the only God. It seems to me that if anyone knows, God does.

Isaiah 44
8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

If the idea that the Father, Son, and Spirit are three different persons (aka the Son is the not Father nor the Spirit, etc) offends you, then you shouldn't be Trinitarian or LDS.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Did you? Apparently not.

Actually I read the Bible very regularly and have read it cover to cover. Yourself?

LOL, hilarious - your missionaries are trained to do exactly what Phoebe said, which is to avoid all the weird, anti-Christian beliefs that mormonism teaches and instead try to find only beliefs that are common with Christianity in order to deceive converts into converting. They hide all the weird stuff and they are trained to do so.

Oh yeah, totally "avoiding" it, as Phoebe quotes the Sunday School instruction manual for investigating people that talks about all this.

That's why I give them fits whenever they try to talk to me and I bring up their weird beliefs

Do you approach things respectfully with the proper context? Or do you approach things out of context and mockingly? Your post here is EXTREMELY disrespectful and designed to mockingly punch people in the face. And after you punch people in the face you get blame them for being upset about it? That's on you, not them.

All that you mention - 70,000 missionaries, plenty of free literature, 24/7 chat, etc. - is designed to CONTROL the information that goes out to non-mormons in such a way that it DOES hide the weird, peculiarly mormon beliefs that separate mormonism from Christianity. What you give as proof is actually proof for Phoebe's point.

Oh yeah, "hiding" them by posting them on the official website... masterful strategy!

[Staff edit].

 

[Rescued One]

Pheobe they didn't hold a gun to you or your family's head. Your fourteen years old and your mother only attended twice before she left the church? But you kept going even after you were shocked about the potential of becoming more like Christ? Did you think that you could learn all the doctrines in two weeks? And how many years did you stay? Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Rescued One]

Pheobe they didn't hold a gun to you or your family's head. Your fourteen years old and your mother only attended twice before she left the church? But you kept going even after you were shocked about the potential of becoming more like Christ? Did you think that you could learn all the doctrines in two weeks? And how many years did you stay? Makes perfect sense to me.

You don't know how old or how gullible I was. When Mormons talk of becoming "like Christ," they are being deceitful. We don't become gods and goddesses! We become holy (sanctified). Being holy means this:

We love God and others
We are good Samaritans
We help the oppressed
We feed the hungry
We clothe the naked
We do what we can to save lives

The kind of deceitfulness so often displayed, and as was displayed in our case, made us gullible. I didn't know the trickery used by Mormons to get people into their organization.
I stayed many years until God opened my eyes.

Isaiah 14:12-14 (KJV)
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Mormons need to repent of teaching deceptively and teaching false doctrines. Attempting to blame me for being gullible won't work. I'm not to blame. I didn't deceive the missionaries; they deceived me.

Lucifer said, "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

We can't even save ourselves! Where is boasting then?

 

[Jane_Doe]

You don't know how old or how gullible I was.

We don't know anything of that. We do know you didn't read scriptures/materials and rushed into things.

When Mormons talk of becoming "like Christ," they are being deceitful. We don't become gods and goddesses! We become holy (sanctified). Being holy means this:

We love God and others
We are good Samaritans
We help the oppressed
We feed the hungry
We clothe the naked
We do what we can to save lives

It also means become joint heirs with Christ, see Romans 8.

Mormons need to repent of teaching deceptively and teaching false doctrines.

We teach the Bible. You're ignoring it.

Attempting to blame me for being gullible won't work. I'm not to blame. I didn't deceive the missionaries; they deceived me.

You didn't bother to read scripture or the manuals they gave you, and rushed into things. Don't blame anyone else for your actions.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Actually I read the Bible very regularly and have read it cover to cover. Yourself?

Yes, I have. So what? So have many people, including many non-believers. What's your point? Did you just want to boast about it?

It doesn't much matter if you've read it and then don't believe it. You don't believe it's perfect or inspired, do you? So what good is it to you? Did you read the King James Version or the Joseph Smith Translation? Which is the "perfect" one to you (or is neither one perfect to you)?

Not sure what your point is.

Oh yeah, totally "avoiding" it, as Phoebe quotes the Sunday School instruction manual for investigating people that talks about all this.

What Sunday School instruction manual is that? The D&C is a Sunday School instruction manual? Ensign is a Sunday School manual? Sunday School manuals in the mormon church are for investigators instead of for members?

The mormons avoid exposing their non-Christian beliefs and strive instead to advertise their beliefs in vague terms that make them sound compatible with Christianity. Deeper information on their non-Christian beliefs is available but one has to dig and research to find it. Missionaries and other mormons will not talk about those strange, non-Christian beliefs.

Do you approach things respectfully with the proper context? Or do you approach things out of context and mockingly? Your post here is EXTREMELY disrespectful and designed to mockingly punch people in the face. And after you punch people in the face you get blame them for being upset about it? That's on you, not them.

I do approach things with the proper context. In this case, I know things about mormonism which they are not telling me about and when i ask them about it they avoid telling me about it. I probably should say they are lying in denying those things, but I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. In any case, I brought up the temple rituals to this missionary and asked why she didn't bring them up to me. She said that I was "mistaken" and that they have no temple rituals. So I asked, "Oh, what does 'health in the navel, marrow in the bones, [...etc.]' come from if not one of your rituals?" And she got mad that I called her out on it. She accused me of being "sneaky" and "lying". Why? Because I exposed her sneakiness and her pattern of avoidance.

What is out of context or mocking about any of that? Nothing. But when people have no rational response they often will respond with emotion and irrationality and deflect with accusations.

Oh yeah, "hiding" them by posting them on the official website... masterful strategy!

Yes, it is quite a masterful strategy. Publicly emphasize and advertise in the vaguest way possible the parts of the religion that can look compatible with Christianity on the surface, then bury all the weird stuff in a website loaded with various articles, "scriptures", etc. and even then word things so that one must carefully analyze what is actually being said. That's a masterful strategy used by a lot of organisations that want to project one image while hiding the less attractive details and facts about themselves.

[Staff edit].

 

[Jane_Doe]

Yes, I have. So what? So have many people, including many non-believers. What's your point? Did you just want to boast about it?

None particular, just being social.

It doesn't much matter if you've read it and then don't believe it.

False statement.

Did you read the King James Version

Yes. I also have read sections from other versions and own several.

What Sunday School instruction manual is that?

The "Gospel Principles" manual. It's the class designed for investigating and new members. You're welcome to read sections or download the who thing here: Gospel Principles

The D&C is a Sunday School instruction manual? Ensign is a Sunday School manual?

D&C is scripture. It does have a Sunday School manual, which you're welcome to read and/or download. The Ensign is not scripture nor a Sunday School manual.

Sunday School manuals in the mormon church are for investigators instead of for members?

Anyone is welcome to attend any class or read or download any manual. Link: LDS Lesson Manuals | Class Member and Teacher Study Guides

The mormons avoid exposing their non-Christian beliefs and strive instead to advertise their beliefs in vague terms that make them sound compatible with Christianity.

Got any actual evidence for this?

I do approach things with the proper context.

Your previous post is fantastic evidence against this claim.

In this case, I know things about mormonism which they are not telling me about and when i ask them about it they avoid telling me about it. I probably should say they are lying in denying those things, but I want to give them the benefit of the doubt.

CFR.

In any case, I brought up the temple rituals to this missionary

So you were disrespectful and took things out of context. Rest of this paragraph is further incidents of great disrespect and out of context.

What is out of context or mocking about any of that?

Everything.

[Staff edit].