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Featured LDS Please explain what the atonement means for Mormons.

Discussion in 'Debate Non-Christian Religions' started by Phoebe Ann, Jan 2, 2017.

  1. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann I left Mormonism for Christ

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    People have different views regarding the atonement. Please give non-Mormons the LDS perspective.
     
  2. withwonderingawe

    withwonderingawe Well-Known Member

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    In Alma 22 Aaron explains the plan of salvation to a king who had no knowledge of God, Mormon has edited the sermon down to just the basics and it puts it in a nutshell.

    13 And Aaron did expound unto him the scriptures from the creation of Adam, laying the fall of man before him, and their carnal state and also the plan of redemption, which was prepared from the foundation of the world, through Christ, for all whosoever would believe on his name.

    14 And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; and Aaron did expound all these things unto the king.
     
  3. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    Do YOU want to know the answer to your own question Phoebe? What interest does this subject have for you?
     
  4. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann I left Mormonism for Christ

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    Thank you, withwonderingawe.

    That's a smidgeon. Would you care to expand? And can you tell us why the D&C and your leaders contradict the point about man being unable to merit anything of himself?

    D&C 130
    19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

    20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

    21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

    Verse 21 is saying that you have to earn every blessing. It's kind of like earning a merit badge.

    D&C 82
    10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

    “The demands of justice for broken law can be satisfied through mercy, earned by your continual repentance and obedience to the laws of God. Such repentance and obedience are absolutely essential for the Atonement to work its complete miracle in your life.”
    Mormon Apostle Richard G. Scott, “The Atonement Can Secure Your Peace and Happiness,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 2006, p.42
     
  5. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    There is no contradiction here. A person must believe in Christ in order to be saved (John 3:16). It would be quite anti-Biblical for us to believe that salvation occurs any other way.
     
  6. withwonderingawe

    withwonderingawe Well-Known Member

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    Let me try again, you read into that passage what you wanted to see.

    The point of Alma 22 was " that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory"

    That is what Jesus' atonement did, if he had not gone to the cross then 'since man had fallen he/man could not merit anything of himself'. Without Christ there were no "hopes of glory" we could do good all day, we could be baptized all day long but no hope for our salvation would be there.

    But since Jesus did go to the cross there is 'hopes of glory' "through faith and repentance, and so forth. ".

    "..repentance and obedience are absolutely essential for the Atonement to work its" complete miracle in your life.” Brother Scott is only quoting the Bible and Jesus

    "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Luke 5

    I'm a sinner are you?

    Acts 2:38
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Do you have another way for the remission of sins?
     
  7. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    We Christians don't, but the mormon religion teaches that more is required from people for the remission of sins. As Phoebe quoted:

    “The demands of justice for broken law can be satisfied through mercy, earned by your continual repentance and obedience to the laws of God. Such repentance and obedience are absolutely essential for the Atonement to work its complete miracle in your life.”
    Mormon Apostle Richard G. Scott, “The Atonement Can Secure Your Peace and Happiness,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 2006, p.42

    Mormonism teaches that you must at least in part "earn" your salvation and do so by works, i.e. "continual repentance and obedience". Christians believe that obedience to the laws of God are not necessary for salvation but rather will be the natural outcome of a true repentance, and that true repentance (for salvation) happens once.
     
  8. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    But your mormon religion adds to this. We agree a person must believe and have a belief unto repentance. That's it. Your religion adds that one must work continually and be under law. Your religion teaches against Grace, which is the New Covenant. That's what Christianity is - belief in the New Covenant, which is Grace.

    Mormonism rejects grace and rejects Christ's sacrifice as being sufficient to cover ALL sin. That's why mormonism is not Christian.
     
  9. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    So you which of following foundations do you believe are not required for a disciple of Christ:
    Faith
    Repentance
    Baptism
     
  10. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    All of them, and they all happen together
     
  11. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    Actually there are Christian groups who proclaim that belief in Christ is not required for salvation, let alone repentance.
    Horrible "additions" to the the Gospel like that a disciple of Christ must be baptized (Acts 2:38)? Many Christian groups preach against this.
    Following the Bible makes one not a "Christian", according to you?
     
  12. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    Who? Certainly no orthodox Christians, but rather religious groups that co-opt the name "Christian" incorrectly (like mormons like to do).

    No, additions like the one I quoted from your Apostle as quoted in your Church publication, i.e. that one must work under the law to earn his or her salvation. Didn't you read that? Or are you ignoring it because you can't answer for it???

    Wrong. I didn't say that and I don't know where you came up with that. It's the opposite - following the Bible makes one a Christian (because it includes faith and repentance).
     
  13. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    I would invite you to ask the OP (Phoebe) if she agrees with you that the works of faith, repentance, and baptism are all required for salvation.
     
  14. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    MANY solo fide groups. Example: Phoebe.

    I'm not ignoring it, but talking about the things he's talking about that, such as repentance is required for salvation. To quote the Articles of Faith (actual LDS scripture) " 4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remissionof sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost."
    Because LDS believe the Bible and that a person should should participate in salvation- things like having faith, repenting, being baptized. You called us "non-Christian" for believing the Bible.
     
  15. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    Phoebe is not a group, she is a person. So your claim is wrong, as I said earlier. [Staff edit].

    He's also talking about "earning" by "continual repentance and obedience to the laws of God. In the Articles of Faith you quote above there is nothing about "obedience to the laws of God" but your church teaches it by publishing this teaching from your prophet in an official publication of the church (which can be reached online at this very moment). So, yes, you are ignoring THIS:

    “The demands of justice for broken law can be satisfied through mercy, earned by your continual repentance and obedience to the laws of God. Such repentance and obedience are absolutely essential for the Atonement to work its complete miracle in your life.”
    Mormon Apostle Richard G. Scott, “The Atonement Can Secure Your Peace and Happiness,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 2006, p.42

    [Staff edit].

    No, I call you non-Christian for believing your church's teachings, specifically the one quoted above, where you are taught (and you must believe in order to be a mormon) that your salvation can be "earned by your continual repentance and obedience to the laws of God" and that "such repentance and obedience are ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL for the Atonement to work its complete miracle in your life".

    See how anti-Christian that is? See how that adds to what you put forward. It seems to be a common tactic that you and other mormons use to put forth only the part of your beliefs that happen to be compatible with Christianity, but you avoid [staff edit] answering for those parts of your beliefs that are Anti-Christian, such as the quote of your mormon so-called "apostle" above. [Staff edit].
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2017
  16. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    John 14:15 -Christ says: "If you love me, keep my commandments".
    If you want to label me "non-Christian" for believing & following Christ, then that's your choice.

    [Staff edit].
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2017
  17. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    I'm labeling mormons "non-Christian" for disbelieving and not following Christ. That's the point. It's not my choice, it's what the Bible says. Mormons reject the Gospel and are therefore not Christian.

    [Staff edit].
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2017
  18. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    [Staff edit].

    You're the one telling me not to believe Christ in John 14:15.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2017
  19. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann I left Mormonism for Christ

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    Mormons don't tell people the requirements for eternal life until after they baptize them and they've been in the church awhile.


    31113, The Latter-day Saint Woman, Part A, Gospel Principles and Doctrine, 10: Eternal Marriage, 66
    “Exaltation is available only to righteous members of the Church of Jesus Christ; only to those who accept the gospel; only to those who have their endowments in holy temples of God and have been sealed for eternity and who then continue to live righteously throughout their lives” (Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness [1969], 246)...

    The Blessings of Eternal Marriage
    President Lorenzo Snow taught: “When two Latter-day Saints are united together in marriage, promises are made to them concerning their offspring that reach from eternity to eternity. They are promised that they shall have the power and the right to govern and control and administer salvation and exaltation and glory to their offspring, worlds without end. And what offspring they do not have here, undoubtedly there will be opportunities to have them hereafter. What else could man wish? A man and a woman, in the other life, having celestial bodies, free from sickness and disease, glorified and beautified beyond description, standing in the midst of their posterity, governing and controlling them, administering life, exaltation and glory worlds without end” (Deseret News, 13 Mar. 1897; quoted by Spencer W. Kimball in The Miracle of Forgiveness [1969], 246)...

    Teacher Preparation
    Before presenting this lesson:
    1. Study Gospel Principles chapter 38, “Eternal Marriage,” and chapter 40, “Temple Work and Family History.”
    2. Study Doctrine and Covenants D&C 132:14–20.

    Gospel Principles Chapter 38: Eternal Marriage

    Gospel Principles Chapter 40: Temple Work and Family History

    Doctrine and Covenants 132:14-20

    The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women, Part A Lesson 10: Eternal Marriage

    They list the first principles and ordinances, but they don't tell you all the commandments.

    Faith and repentance, baptism and bestowal of the Holy Ghost constitute the heart of the gospel of Jesus Christ, being the essential requirements for entry into the celestial kingdom.
    The First Principles and Ordinances of the Gospel - Ensign Oct. 2000 - ensign

    Note:
    The celestial kingdom is comprised of those who have eternal life in the presence of God, and those who only earned a place in the two lower levels of that kingdom. Others don't even make it to the celestial kingdom, but go to one of three other places:

    Terrestrial kingdom
    Telestial kingdom
    Outer Darkness

    Doctrines of Salvation, Volume II (Joseph Fielding Smith):

    COMPLETE OBEDIENCE BRINGS ETERNAL LIFE. But to be exalted one must keep the whole law. This is the great love he shows forth for his children: notwithstanding they sin and close their eyes against the truth, yet his arm is stretched out still, and he will feel after them and bring them back if they will keep his commandments; and if not, he will do for them just the best he can. Is going to bless them with all it is possible to give, and all shall be saved; all others will receive a place somewhere and it will be glorious unto them, but to receive the exaltation of the righteous, in other words eternal life, the commandments of the Lord must be kept in all things.
    Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. II, p.6

    Celestial Marriage
    Marriage and Exaltation
    MARRIAGE: THE COVENANT OF EXALTATION.
    Marriage, as understood by Latter-day Saints, is a covenant ordained to be everlasting. It is the foundation for eternal exaltation, for without it there could be no eternal progress in the kingdom of God.
    The Lord taught Joseph Smith the doctrine of the eternity of the marriage covenant and the perpetuity of the family after death. This revelation has proved a wonderful, if not terrible shock to the believers in the doctrine that at death a man and his wife are forever separated and the family relationship comes to an eternal end. Yet there are very few, if they have natural feelings, who do not hope that the eternity of the family may prove to be a fact.
    There is no ordinance connected with the gospel of Jesus Christ of greater importance, of more solemn and sacred nature, and more necessary to the eternal joy of man, than marriage.
    Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. II, p. 58

    Those without exaltation, don't have eternal life.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
  20. withwonderingawe

    withwonderingawe Well-Known Member

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    This is another example of Phobe taking things out of context however;

    From our Articles of Faith
    3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
    4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second,Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Now all that is in line with Act 3 and Peter's answer given to the new converts.

    You said; "...rather will be the natural outcome of a true repentance..."

    Yes that is the goal, that doing good and choosing not to sin becomes a natural part of our daily life. There were those in the Lord's parable who when told they fed the Lord they were puzzled and ask when did we do that? It was just something they did naturally. The others in the parable did not feed the hungry and they were condemned " these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Matt 25

    James tells us "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin"

    Of all people Christians should know what good is but not always, temptations are put before us and we must with the help of the Holy Spirit choose the good. If we falter there is always the door of repentance, of starting over and moving forward. It's a progression of sanctification, we overcome the flesh's desire to sin.

    What the real difference between us is, is that we believe a man can fall from grace through sin and most Evangelicals don't.

    In Matt 5 the Lord sets down the New Covenant's laws;

    For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    He explained the old law was dead and a new one expanding the law was now being set in place.

    21 ¶Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
    22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

    That may seem like a given today but at the time of Jesus that was a whole new level of thought and it had to be taught to them. Each new Christian needs to be taught also and it doesn't hurt for us to be reminded.

    " And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain"

    That's a lot to comprehend and then to adjusts the attitude. In the middle of the Lord's prayer he says

    " And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."

    and then adds

    14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
    15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

    He said in his be-attitudes

    "Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy"

    If our hearts can not learn forgiveness of others, if we can not learn charity for others all the faith in the world isn't going to save us.

    *But back to Elder Scott's talk and his actual intent. Brother Scott wasn't talking just about salvation in the next life but finding peace in this life. He was comparing life to rock climbing and he compared the laws of God to the anchors a rock climber uses.

    "In real life, the anchors are the laws of God that provide protection under all of the challenges that you will face. The rope and carabiners that secure the rope to the anchors represent obedience to those commandments. When you learn those commandments, continue to practice them, and have a plan to avoid danger, you will have a secure means of obtaining protection against Satan’s temptations. You will develop strength of character that will fortify you against transgression. Should you make a wrong move, there need be no enduring problem because of the belaying or help that is available through your repentance.
    ....... The Redeemer will safely lead you over the most difficult obstacles of life. His laws are absolutely secure anchors of protection that dispel fear and assure success in an otherwise dangerous world. Such a life will certainly provide you peace and happiness."

    Then he talks about the Atonement and this explains phobe's question and it really is about consequences for actions.

    "Each of us makes mistakes in life. They result in broken eternal laws.(like thou shalt not lie) Justice is that part of Father in Heaven’s plan of happiness that maintains order. It is like gravity to a rock climber, ever present. It is a friend if eternal laws are observed. It responds to your detriment if they are ignored. Justice guarantees that you will receive the blessings you earn for obeying the laws of God. Justice also requires that every broken law be satisfied. When you obey the laws of God, you are blessed, but there is no additional credit earned that can be saved to satisfy the laws that you break. If not resolved, broken laws can cause your life to be miserable and would keep you from returning to God. Only the life, teachings, and particularly the Atonement of Jesus Christ can release you from this otherwise impossible predicament.

    The demands of justice for broken law (thou shalt not lie) can be satisfied through mercy, earned by your continual repentance and obedience to the laws of God. Such repentance and obedience are absolutely essential for the Atonement to work its complete miracle in your life. The Redeemer can settle your individual account with justice and grant forgiveness through the merciful path of your repentance. Through the Atonement you can live in a world where justice assures that you will retain what you earn by obedience. Through His mercy you can resolve the consequences of broken laws."

    Okay I lied about something, I can not go out and feed the poor more and expect I'm being forgiven of that lie if I don't repent of it. I have to go to the Lord and say I lied please forgive me and help me not to lie again. Then as I continue not to lie the Lord's mercy takes effect and I'm forgiven. However if I continue to lie then the Lord will not forgive me, I have to truly repent.

    Now since I've learned not to lie people begin to trust me and I have a happier life in general and I don't have to suffer for the sin of lying in the next life. Repentance is a major part of being obedient, it's not about counting up brownie points but about making changes to your life so we walk more Christ like.

    what we are talking about when we say " what you earn by obedience" we mean peace in your life. There is also the reward in the eternities

    "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life" Rom 2

    I like the "patient continuance" it means it doesn't happen all at once but over time. I'd say 99% of the people who live on this earth do some good at some point, that good is not forgotten by justice. Each will receive a reward for the good which they did no mater how small.