Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Well, the gymnastics you go through to support your false dichotomy is impressive.I gave you an explanation from Scripture that doesn't fit your false dichotomy.
Paul wrote to the believers in his Epistles. Meaning that, when he speaks TO THEM about being in "the flesh", or being in "the spirit", he isn't referring to being saved, or unsaved, he's referring to either being in submission to the Spirit, (therefore being in "the spirit"), or NOT being in submission to the Spirit, (therefore being led by the desires of the flesh ... being in "the flesh").
Any time a believer fails to submit to the HS, that believer is in the flesh, and does NOT please God.
It is more pleasing to God for a lost person to submit to the calling of the gospel, through the preaching of the Word in the power of the HS, than for a believer to turn his back on God, not yield to the HS, and thereby walk in the flesh.
So, the person who yields to the HS when the gospel is preached, is by definition in "the Spirit", for he has yielded to the HS, which is pleasing to God.
I'm assuming then that you believe man is a dichotomous being, but that is not what Scripture teaches ... would you care to take a small test from Scripture to see that man is not a dichotomous being, or would you prefer to set Scriptural truth aside to fit what you have obviously been taught?Well, the gymnastics you go through to support your false dichotomy is impressive.
I’ll stick to the prima facia reading of scripture.
It seems as though there is contention concerning these verses:
6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John
What Calvinism teaches concerning these verses is that ...
1) In order for a man to come to Christ, the Father must FIRST draw him. (verse 44)
2) When the Father draws a man, that man will then be given to Christ. (verse 37)
Conclusion that is assumed:
The Father only draws the "elect", which He gives to Christ.
Is this in agreement wwit Scripture? No.
A) It is automatically assumed as a presupposition that only the "elect" are "draw[n]" by the Father; but this text does not say that.
B) We do have a Scripture that does say exactly who the Father will "draw" ...
12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John
To what was Jesus referring to, when speaking of being "lifted up"?
3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John
Now let's put these teachings of Jesus together ...
Jesus tells Nicodemus that as the serpent was lifted up He must be lifted up.
How was the serpent "lifted up"; and for what purpose was it lifted up?
21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. Numbers
The purpose of the serpent was to bring the people to a place of repentance concerning their sin. They, by faith in God, looked upon the serpent in order to live.
Jesus told Nicodemus that He, in like manner would be lifted up so that all that looked upon Him in faith might live.
In John 12, Jesus clearly stated that if I be lifted up (like Moses lifted the serpent in the wilderness) from the earth, will draw all men unto me. Jesus clearly stated that "all men" would be drawn.
Hence when we read "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day"; we see that man doesn't make the initial move toward God by his power, or will; rather, the first move that draws man to God is made by God.
1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John
The question then is, does man respond to this being "drawn", or does he reject it?
If man rejects the offer made by God, he dies, (just like in the wilderness with the brazen serpent); if he accepts that invitation by God, God then gives him to His Son.
Now we see ...
1) God initially invites, and draws man.
2) Man responds to the invitation.
3) God continues to guide man to the Son.
All of the Scriptures are in harmony.
OK, now you've changed the question.Good grief.
Can anyone have faith and still be in the flesh?
I don’t see how that’s an answer. I can clarify the question if that will help.Some do. They're called Arminians. Oh, and Pharisees.
But I don't.
OK, now you've changed the question.
Can a believer live for themself?
Can a believer depend on their own strengths and talents?
Paul commanded his audience of believers in Ephesus to stop grieving the Holy Spirit, in Eph 4:30. We know that believers have exercised saving faith in Christ.
Are such believers, who are grieving the Spirit, in the flesh, or in the Spirit?
How does any of this relate to my response to your new question?I don’t see how that’s an answer. I can clarify the question if that will help.
I don’t think you understood my question. But since you don’t want clarification, I’ll move on.How does any of this relate to my response to your new question?
This was my response:
OK, now you've changed the question.
Can a believer live for themself?
Can a believer depend on their own strengths and talents?
Paul commanded his audience of believers in Ephesus to stop grieving the Holy Spirit, in Eph 4:30. We know that believers have exercised saving faith in Christ.
Are such believers, who are grieving the Spirit, in the flesh, or in the spirit?
Since you didn't answer any of the questions, why do you continue asking irreleant questions?
Dr Jack gave you a very good explanation of dichotomy vs trichotomy.
However, my response to your question involves what believers can DO; grieve the Spirit.
So, until you address that question of whether a believer who grieves the Holy Spirit is in the flesh or in the spirit, there is no reason to continue.
If one wants a real discussion, then one must really engage.
If you don't understand my question, feel free to ask for clarification.
Where does faith come from? Some people have it and some don't.
So, rather, it seems you're not interested in a real discussion.I don’t think you understood my question. But since you don’t want clarification, I’ll move on.
Okay.This is how I ended my last post to you:
"However, my response to your question involves what believers can DO; grieve the Spirit.
So, until you address that question of whether a believer who grieves the Holy Spirit is in the flesh or in the spirit, there is no reason to continue.
If one wants a real discussion, then one must really engage.
If you don't understand my question, feel free to ask for clarification."
So, rather, it seems you're not interested in a real discussion.
But my response did answer your question. Apparently it wasn't understood. And it's real clear that you don't want clarification.
Amen.A gift from the Holy Spirit.
M-Bob
1) Since you refuse to engage allow me the liberty to do what I would do in the classroom, (role play).I don’t think you understood my question. But since you don’t want clarification, I’ll move on.
This is a quote from the OT, from 2 passages:
Now I would like to present a question for you, or any other Calvinist. But, I must preface the question:I don’t think you understood my question. But since you don’t want clarification, I’ll move on.
Now I would like to present a question for you, or any other Calvinist. But, I must preface the question:
Calvinism teaches that God must "regenerate" the soul of man prior to 1) hearing the gospel; or 2) being saved.
Now read this carefully ...
Prior to Adam sinning in the Garden of Eden, Adam had a living body, and a living soul (according to Calvinism).
Illustrative example: Adam ...
Body = alive
Soul = alive
When Adam sinned, his soul died.
Adam ...
Body = alive
soul = dead
The object of "salvation" is to get the 'soul' alive again ... "Born of the Spirit".
Which would be represented as ...
Adam (Saved) ...
Body =alive
Soul = alive
Now according to Calvinism, God first 'regenerates' the soul, then the soul is saved, only after hearing the gospel.
So let's examine the logical order ...
Adam (prior to the fall)
Body = alive
Soul = alive
Adam (after the fall)
Body = alive
Soul = dead
Adam (after regeneration)
Body = alive
Soul = alive
Adam (during preaching of the gospel)
Body = alive
Soul = alive
Adam (after salvation)
Body = alive
Soul = alive
Please take notice, the soul of Adam was alive from the time of "regeneration". So here is my question ...
What is the difference of the condition of the soul of any person that is "regenerated" vs the soul of that same person after being saved?
I will clarify further ...
When the soul is dead, the person is then "LOST";
When the soul is alive, the person is then "SAVED"
According to Calvinism, there is no definitive difference between the regenerated soul, and the saved soul.
If you believe this assertion to be false; please define the difference between the regenerated soul, and the saved soul.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?