'Persecuted' Western Christians Should Grow Up

[BlandOatmeal]

Which of course is the extraordinary homosexual right of acknowledging your existence in public.

Lethe, you will have to back that up with evidence.

Pole vault champion Isinbayeva under fire over ‘gay propaganda’ comments
Published time: August 16, 2013 09:49

"Olympic pole vault champion Yelena Isinbayeva has come under fire from LGBT activists after defending Russia’s controversial “gay propaganda” law. After some athletes branded her “homophobic,” she has rejected the accusation she is anti-gay...

"Russia’s “gay propaganda” law forbids the promotion of “non-traditional” sexual relations to children under the age of 18, on penalty of a fine. Foreigners can be deported or sentenced to up to 15 days in custody for violating the law. .."

-- Pole vault champion Isinbayeva under fire over ‘gay propaganda’ comments — RT News

It seems to me, that the only one being persecuted here is Yelena. As for Russia's law, it forbids promoting CERTAIN sexual relations to minors -- whereas US law forbids having ANY sexual relations with minors -- minors who, not too long ago, had the right to marry in most states without parental consent. Which law is the most oppressive? This is not a case of limiting freedom, but of one group (homosexuals) trying to push their world view onto another. Russia stepped in, to protect its vulnerable minors. They cannot be faulted for that.

Despite what you might think, the fact that your group believes certain sexual practices are right or wrong, does not mean you can force others to practice them.

NOWHERE in all this, do I see any truth to the accusation you made. Please apologize.

 

[Lethe]

Let's recap this.

Citizen criticized by foreigners in words: not persecution.

Citizens potentially incarcerated for something we consider a free speech matter: persecution.

As for Russia's law, it forbids promoting CERTAIN sexual relations with minors -- whereas US law forbids having ANY sexual relations with minors -- minors who, not too long ago, had the right to marry in most states without parental consent. Which law is the most oppressive?

Please examine the bolded words and observe their difference.

 

[RDKirk]

I think Dr Williams might have forgotten just how brutal the war on Christmas can be. Referring to that time of year as Winterval is a clear example of persecution.

I got hit by Poe's Law until I noted your atheist icon.

 

[Lethe]

Which of course is the extraordinary homosexual right of acknowledging your existence in public.

Lethe, you will have to back that up with evidence.

And here is BlandOatmeal's citation:

The group endured some initial confrontations with authorities who tried to stop them from carrying rainbow flags under Russia’s gay propaganda law that bans the ‘promotion of homosexuality among minors’.
Russian LGBT network released a statement saying: ‘Last year in the May Day procession, anyone who held up a rainbow flag was arrested just for this. Today, the “rainbow column” marched with flags proudly held high and the feeble requests of the police to “stop propaganda” were ignored.’

Carrying a rainbow flag, eg publicly acknowledging your sexuality or support for gay people, is an offense.

 

[RDKirk]

Christian persecution in the West. I dunno, I keep seeing in my mind the scene in "Crocodile Dundee" where a street tough pulls a switchblade on the awesome Aussie.

But I see it this way:

Christian in America: We're being persecuted!

Jesus: "That's not persecution," then showing His palms: "This is persecution."

Christians in America need to saint up.

Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.

But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.

If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. -- 1 Peter 4

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Let's recap this.

Citizen criticized by foreigners in words: not persecution.

Citizens potentially incarcerated for something we consider a free speech matter: persecution.

Please examine the bolded words and observe their difference.

For the sake of the discussion, there is no difference. Lethe claimed that Russian homosexuals were being persecuted for WHO THEY ARE. They are not, and Lethe should apologize for her statements.

Russia's "homosexual" law is merely a law for protecting minors, as they define them. In that case, it is legitimate for me to liken their laws to ours. The very DEFINITION of who constitutes a minor varies from country to country; and our bar is set extremely high.

What the homosexuality advocates are doing, is trying to carry out the "White Man's Burden" to "civilize" the world, by enforcing a uniform standard of morality. Groups like the Russians and Fundamentalist Christians should not be forced to bow down to this "New Age" morality, no matter how enlightened its advocates think it is.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

And here is BlandOatmeal's citation:

Carrying a rainbow flag, eg publicly acknowledging your sexuality or support for gay people, is an offense.

Carrying a flag does not "acknowledge" who you are; it promotes a cause. I have an Israeli flag, which I fly whenever I feel the cause of Israel needs support. I am not an Israeli.

Russia's law is not against BEING anything, and you well know that -- so don't lie. Saying a person IS homosexual means that he or she PRACTICES homosexuality, the same way someone who IS an adulterer PRACTICES adultery. You cannot say you ARE a homosexual, just because you like people of the same sex, any more than you can say that you ARE an adulterer because you like your neighbor's wife. The fliers of those flags are promoting a PRACTICE, a practice which most cultures consider abhorrent and all cultures acknowledge is unhygenic.

 

[jazzflower92]

I know a lot of American Christians are praising about how pro- family vales Putin is but he is also cracking down on Russian Protestants and gays as well.

Mystic Post.com - A Crackdown on Russian Protestants

 

[Joykins]

Russia's law is not against BEING anything, and you well know that -- so don't lie. Saying a person IS homosexual means that he or she PRACTICES homosexuality, the same way someone who IS an adulterer PRACTICES adultery. You cannot say you ARE a homosexual, just because you like people of the same sex, any more than you can say that you ARE an adulterer because you like your neighbor's wife. The fliers of those flags are promoting a PRACTICE, a practice which most cultures consider abhorrent and all cultures acknowledge is unhygenic.

Actually the term "homosexuality" includes both same-sex inclination and practice. Your assertion that it includes only practice is a prime example of why this debate so often founders uselessly.

Can you say this in Russia:

"It's OK to be gay"
(as opposed to "It's OK to have gay sex")

In front of children?

If not, your definition is also wrong.

Let's see.

"Six LGBT activists were detained after one of them unfurled a banner reading “Being gay is normal” near a children’s library in Moscow, but so far the participants have not been brought to trial."

Questions and answers on anti-gay legislation in Russia - The Washington Post

Hm.

 

[willlowbee]

I wasn't going to respond to the obvious flame this thread title implies but I couldn't resist.
And sure enough it didn't disappoint. A slam on Christians posted by a Humanist.

I think the irony is as wide as the Atlantic, but far more shallow.
God forgive.

 

[Joykins]

I thought we were talking about "government" persecution of a people. Government influences the way people think and act. They control Churches, schools and other types of meeting places. They control law enforcement. Look at Segregation in the '60's (and before that). That was a hate crime against black people. I think that individuals who commit hate crimes have been here since the beginning of time. Anyone who was "different" was a victim. But when the federal government is openly trying to secularize a nation, that is trying to legislate a religion of atheism or any religion that does not worship the Judeo/Christian God, IMO. Sure, they are doing it insidiously, but those who are devout
Christians resent it. That is all that can be done right now because it is not overt.

Our government is supposed to be secular and not favor any one religion, but allow each religion to flourish on its own terms. They seem to be doing a fairly decent job at that. Look, they are not even trying to shut down Christian messageboards.

 

[dies-l]

Carrying a flag does not "acknowledge" who you are; it promotes a cause. I have an Israeli flag, which I fly whenever I feel the cause of Israel needs support. I am not an Israeli.

Russia's law is not against BEING anything, and you well know that -- so don't lie. Saying a person IS homosexual means that he or she PRACTICES homosexuality, the same way someone who IS an adulterer PRACTICES adultery. You cannot say you ARE a homosexual, just because you like people of the same sex, any more than you can say that you ARE an adulterer because you like your neighbor's wife. The fliers of those flags are promoting a PRACTICE, a practice which most cultures consider abhorrent and all cultures acknowledge is unhygenic.

This is either the most dishonest or most misinformed post I've read in a while. Calling a person "homosexual" refers to that person's orientation or attraction, not a specific action .

 

[BlandOatmeal]

I wasn't going to respond to the obvious flame this thread title implies but I couldn't resist.
And sure enough it didn't disappoint. A slam on Christians posted by a Humanist.

I think the irony is as wide as the Atlantic, but far more shallow.
God forgive.

I agree, Willow. I came on board, just to see why the thing was getting so many hits. When I first read the OP, I agreed with it -- Western Christians are NOT persecuted as badly as they are in other countries. After seeing the posts, though, and their incessant attacks on Christians and Christian values, I am more convinced than before that the end-time persecution has already begun.

While I'm here, I posted two maps already -- one on homosexuality and the other on abortion -- both of which are spoken against in the Bible, and therefore important issues to at least a core group of Christians. I'll add another one here, about capital punishment -- something which is commanded in the Bible. As with the other two maps, you will probably notice that the most NON-Christian positions are by countries that are nominally the most Christian. I'm not advocating the death penalty, of course, just showing who's for it and who's against it:

Legend
Abolished for all crimes (100)
Abolished for all crimes except under exceptional/special circumstances (such as crimes committed in wartime) (7)
Abolished in practice (under a moratorium or haven't used capital punishment in at least 10 years) (48)
Retainers of the death penalty (40)

What is clear to me, is that a "New Morality" has arisen, which is:

1. In favor of abortion
2. In favor of homosexuality, and
3. Opposed to the death penalty.

Countries that fit all three positions are as follows:

Mexico, Germany, France, UK, South Africa, Colombia, Spain, Canada, Australia, Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal, Czech R., Hungary, Sweden, Dominican R., Austria, Switzerland, Israel, tiny countries

ALL those countries were at one time overwhelmingly Christian or Jewish, ruled by whites. Countries which hold to NONE of the above positions (and therefore agree the most with the Bible in their policies) include:

Pakistan, Nigeria, Ethiopia, Egypt, Iran, Myanmar, Tanzania, Kenya, Sudan, Algeria, Uganda, Morocco, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Ghana, Yemen, Syria, Cameroon, Sri Lanka, Malawi, Zimbabwe, S. Sudan, Guinea, Somalia, U. Arab Emirates

This list includes Muslim, Chriatian and Buddhist countries. The common denominator is that they are all non-European.

When I said the New Agers were pushing the "White Man's Burden", I meant it.

 

[Joykins]

The Bible does not speak against abortion. Nice try, though.

 

[Lethe]

After seeing the posts, though, and their incessant attacks on Christians and Christian values, I am more convinced than before that the end-time persecution has already begun.

That's right. We're persecuting you. And it's not just usual persecution, it's end times persecution.

What exactly have we said in the thread that qualifies as end times level persecution?

 

[dies-l]

I agree, Willow. I came on board, just to see why the thing was getting so many hits. When I first read the OP, I agreed with it -- Western Christians are NOT persecuted as badly as they are in other countries. After seeing the posts, though, and their incessant attacks on Christians and Christian values, I am more convinced than before that the end-time persecution has already begun.

While I'm here, I posted two maps already -- one on homosexuality and the other on abortion -- both of which are spoken against in the Bible, and therefore important issues to at least a core group of Christians. I'll add another one here, about capital punishment -- something which is commanded in the Bible. As with the other two maps, you will probably notice that the most NON-Christian positions are by countries that are nominally the most Christian. I'm not advocating the death penalty, of course, just showing who's for it and who's against it:

Legend
Abolished for all crimes (100)
Abolished for all crimes except under exceptional/special circumstances (such as crimes committed in wartime) (7)
Abolished in practice (under a moratorium or haven't used capital punishment in at least 10 years) (48)
Retainers of the death penalty (40)

What is clear to me, is that a "New Morality" has arisen, which is:

1. In favor of abortion
2. In favor of homosexuality, and
3. Opposed to the death penalty.

Countries that fit all three positions are as follows:

Mexico, Germany, France, UK, South Africa, Colombia, Spain, Canada, Australia, Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal, Czech R., Hungary, Sweden, Dominican R., Austria, Switzerland, Israel, tiny countries

ALL those countries were at one time overwhelmingly Christian or Jewish, ruled by whites. Countries which hold to NONE of the above positions (and therefore agree the most with the Bible in their policies) include:

Pakistan, Nigeria, Ethiopia, Egypt, Iran, Myanmar, Tanzania, Kenya, Sudan, Algeria, Uganda, Morocco, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Ghana, Yemen, Syria, Cameroon, Sri Lanka, Malawi, Zimbabwe, S. Sudan, Guinea, Somalia, U. Arab Emirates

This list includes Muslim, Chriatian and Buddhist countries. The common denominator is that they are all non-European.

When I said the New Agers were pushing the "White Man's Burden", I meant it.

This post illustrates the OP's point well. It can't get any pettier than, "you're persecuting me by pointing out how not persecuted I am." Sheesh! Give me a break.

And, FTR, I am a Christian and a faithful follower of Christ, not some Atheist or humanist.

 

[RDKirk]

That's right. We're persecuting you. And it's not just usual persecution, it's end times persecution.

What exactly have we said in the thread that qualifies as end times level persecution?

Well, 'cause it's happening in the US, of course. Christians in America aren't bothered about Christians macheted in Nigeria or machine-gunned in Pakistan or burned alive in India or disappeared in Japan or raped with farm implements in North Korea. They don't count as "end-times persecution."

but not being allowed to put a creche on the town square in Boston--that's end-times persecution.

Also, homosexual pride parades. That's persecution, too.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

The Bible does not speak against abortion. Nice try, though.

It forbids murder. Nice try.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

That's right. We're persecuting you. And it's not just usual persecution, it's end times persecution.

What exactly have we said in the thread that qualifies as end times level persecution?

Hi, Lethe

I was, of course, voicing MY opinion, which I don't have to prove to you. I expect the "end times" persecution to come from apostates, from people "of my own household". Since those pushing this new religion are all from a Christian background, that fits the bill very well. Thanks for asking

 

[dies-l]

It forbids murder. Nice try.

To be fair, nothing in Scripture suggests that abortion falls within the definition of murder. That said, I oppose abortion (just as I oppose capital punishment, unjust war, etc.), but I am the first to admit that the Bible is far from clear on the topic.