'Persecuted' Western Christians Should Grow Up

[RDKirk]

This is naivtivity (sp?), christians r persecuted for the sake of Christ every day; certainly more increasingly in politics, most certainly in education, and in the workplace, u name it!!!!

I'm not talking about those who live worldly and identify with Christ, I am talking about those saints who r His....meaning they live Christ in their life everyday, not just during the so called holidays. These people live and breath Christ in their being....these people r indeed persecuted!

By telling me u don't feel persecuted and that no one in the U.S. r persecuted in the name of Christ tells me something about urself.

If you are truly being persecuted in the name of Christ, then it's a sin to complain about it.

In the US, however, people who call themselves Christian are more often "persecuted" for being jerks and meddlers rather than for Christlike behavior.

 

[Parson Rayphe]

If you are truly being persecuted in the name of Christ, then it's a sin to complain about it.

In the US, however, people who call themselves Christian are more often "persecuted" for being jerks and meddlers rather than for Christlike behavior.

So RD....,
Would stating it to be fact qualify as "complaining about it"? Cuz I haven't read anyone here "complaining" about it.

Just asken'

 

[Supreme]

So RD....,
Would stating it to be fact qualify as "complaining about it"? Cuz I haven't read anyone here "complaining" about it.

Just asken'

But it isn't a fact, is the argument. There is no way that American Christians are persecuted. There may be some stupid incidents where a Christian is disadvantaged for their beliefs, but there is no widespread, co-ordinated persecution like there is in North Korea or Saudi Arabia.

 

[Skaloop]

This is naivtivity (sp?), christians r persecuted for the sake of Christ every day; certainly more increasingly in politics, most certainly in education, and in the workplace, u name it!!!!

I'm not talking about those who live worldly and identify with Christ, I am talking about those saints who r His....meaning they live Christ in their life everyday, not just during the so called holidays. These people live and breath Christ in their being....these people r indeed persecuted!

By telling me u don't feel persecuted and that no one in the U.S. r persecuted in the name of Christ tells me something about urself.

I never said I don't feel persecuted. Although I don't. I also never said that nobody in the US is persecuted for being Christian; there are some isolated incidents. But Christians in general are not persecuted in the name of Christ. Not in politics, not in education, not in the workplace, not anywhere.

 

[Parson Rayphe]

But it isn't a fact, is the argument. There is no way that American Christians are persecuted. There may be some stupid incidents where a Christian is disadvantaged for their beliefs, but there is no widespread, co-ordinated persecution like there is in North Korea or Saudi Arabia.

RD's statement made no mention of "widespread, co-ordinated persecution like there is in North Korea or Saudi Arabia"

You are introducing a new component to the question I asked RD

 

[dies-l]

If you are truly being persecuted in the name of Christ, then it's a sin to complain about it.

In the US, however, people who call themselves Christian are more often "persecuted" for being jerks and meddlers rather than for Christlike behavior.

^^this^^

 

[RDKirk]

So RD....,
Would stating it to be fact qualify as "complaining about it"? Cuz I haven't read anyone here "complaining" about it.

Just asken'

Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler.

However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. -- 1 Peter 4

The first point: If a Christian is suffering, it should not be because of bad behavior--or even because of meddling. A lot of the acrimony aroused by Christians in the US is because of directly meddling (or attempting to) in the lives of non-Christians.

This is totally different from the situation of Christians in Nigeria or Pakistan, who are living "peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness" when a non-Christian terrorists rush into their homes or churches and opens fire with machine guns. It's not the same thing as a Christian in Japan who is arrested and "disappears" simply for the fact of being Christian.

If a Christian truly suffers for the gospel, then the directed reaction is praise and joy. If the suffering is for some other reason--because of meddling, for instance, then that is a sin because we are commanded not to meddle but to display grace and light.

If the response to suffering is anything other than praise and joy, then that is a sin because we are commanded to respond in praise and joy. A response to persecution that does not include praise and joy is a sin and is complaining.

 

[bhsmte]

I never said I don't feel persecuted. Although I don't. I also never said that nobody in the US is persecuted for being Christian; there are some isolated incidents. But Christians in general are not persecuted in the name of Christ. Not in politics, not in education, not in the workplace, not anywhere.

I agree.

IMO, some christians are very sensitive to their beliefs and if they feel their beliefs are threatened (by someone who is a non-believer and presents evidence for their non-belief), they are quick to label it persecution.

Beyond these personal perceptions, the United States is obviously very tolerant of christians, just by the shear number of people who claim to be christian (over 70%). It certainly is not politically, or socially unacceptable to be considered a christian. On the other hand, it is not socially or politically acceptable to be considered an atheist.

 

[Parson Rayphe]

Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler.

However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. -- 1 Peter 4

The first point: If a Christian is suffering, it should not be because of bad behavior--or even because of meddling. A lot of the acrimony aroused by Christians in the US is because of directly meddling (or attempting to) in the lives of non-Christians.

I wouldn't particularly word it this way but I think we are in agreement that people who claim to be Christians can cry persecution when there may not be.

This is totally different from the situation of Christians in Nigeria or Pakistan, who are living "peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness" when a non-Christian terrorists rush into their homes or churches and opens fire with machine guns. It's not the same thing as a Christian in Japan who is arrested and "disappears" simply for the fact of being Christian.

I Certainly agree with that

If the response to suffering is anything other than praise and joy, then that is a sin because we are commanded to respond in praise and joy.

The Bible does absolutely tell us that when we encounter persecution we are encountering what the Messiah encountered and for that we can consider ourselves in unity with Him.


A response to persecution that does not include praise and joy is a sin and is complaining.

On this there is another perspective. For example, the Bible tells us to honor our parents and so should we limit our ourselves to honoring our parents or is it allowed to honor aunts and uncles? - rhetorical

The Bible says we are not to commit adultery . So does that mean we should completely ignore the opposite sex? - rhetorical

Of course I realize these things are ridiculous. So my point is; Because the Bible says we are to "consider it joy" when experiencing these things does that mean we are not allowed to simply acknowledge the existence of it? I don't think so.

I certainly would not be the one to tell a widow that had just witnessed her family brutally tortured, and then hacked to death with a machete, before she herself was gang raped that she was sinning because she was not singing praise songs and telling jokes.

The Bible also tells us to preserve life and that a husband is the shepherd of the family. In the above scenario would the man of the family be sinning if someone breaks in at night and he tried to stop them from hurting the family (rather than considering it joy)? The Bible tells us no - that is not a sin. And that the man is obligated to defend the family to the best of his ability.

When a soldier goes to war he can have a since of pride and "joy" for what he is doing - if it is a righteous cause. But that doesn't mean he should enjoy killing. If a soldier had "pride" or "joy" for what he was doing would he be sinning if he stepped on a land mine and instead of singing praise songs he was screaming in pain? No that wouldn't be a sin.


Not meaning to sound contentious with any of this. I am just saying that while I am in agreement with much of what you wrote, there does need to be some judicious application.


Ecclesiastes 3:2-8
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

 

[dies-l]

On this there is another perspective. For example, the Bible tells us to honor our parents and so should we limit our ourselves to honoring our parents or is it allowed to honor aunts and uncles? - rhetorical

The Bible says we are not to commit adultery . So does that mean we should completely ignore the opposite sex? - rhetorical

Of course I realize these things are ridiculous. So my point is; Because the Bible says we are to "consider it joy" when experiencing these things does that mean we are not allowed to simply acknowledge the existence of it? I don't think so.

I certainly would not be the one to tell a widow that had just witnessed her family brutally tortured, and then hacked to death with a machete, before she herself was gang raped that she was sinning because she was not singing praise songs and telling jokes.

The Bible also tells us to preserve life and that a husband is the shepherd of the family. In the above scenario would the man of the family be sinning if someone breaks in at night and he tried to stop them from hurting the family (rather than considering it joy)? The Bible tells us no - that is not a sin. And that the man is obligated to defend the family to the best of his ability.

When a soldier goes to war he can have a since of pride and "joy" for what he is doing - if it is a righteous cause. But that doesn't mean he should enjoy killing. If a soldier had "pride" or "joy" for what he was doing would he be sinning if he stepped on a land mine and instead of singing praise songs he was screaming in pain? No that wouldn't be a sin.


Not meaning to sound contentious with any of this. I am just saying that while I am in agreement with much of what you wrote, there does need to be some judicious application.


Ecclesiastes 3:2-8
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

But, I think RD's bigger point is that we are not blessed when we are persecuted because of our misbehavior. Much of the "persecution" claimed by Western Christians is directly attributable to nastiness in the way they treat other people. When this hapoens, this is not persecution on account of our faith.

 

[All Englands Skies]

It certainly is not politically, or socially unacceptable to be considered a christian. On the other hand, it is not socially or politically acceptable to be considered an atheist.

Its diffrent in UK and Europe, its politically acceptable to be atheist more so than being a strong Christian, but its okay to be a nominal "I go Church sometimes and try to live a good life" Christian.


We arent persecuted in the UK I dont think.

However that doesnt mean we shouldnt be able to say if we feel somethings a double standard or put up with any treatment or bullying, because if we say anything we get belittled as "crying persecution".

No body seems to have a problem if its liberal sponsered groups like ethnic minorities, gays, Muslims and feminists "crying persecution" over spilt milk.

 

[RDKirk]

However that doesnt mean we shouldnt be able to say if we feel somethings a double standard or put up with any treatment or bullying, because if we say anything we get belittled as "crying persecution".

No body seems to have a problem if its liberal sponsered groups like ethnic minorities, gays, Muslims and feminists "crying persecution" over spilt milk.

Of course the world does not have a problem with people who operate according to the rules of the world.

You are basically saying, "If it's okay for them, it should be okay for us."

But that is precisely the wrong attitude for Christians. We are not suppose to be like them.

Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
-- Luke 6:28

As Christians, we can never use "they do it!" as a rationale for our own actions.

 

[bhsmte]

Its diffrent in UK and Europe, its politically acceptable to be atheist more so than being a strong Christian, but its okay to be a nominal "I go Church sometimes and try to live a good life" Christian.




We arent persecuted in the UK I dont think.

However that doesnt mean we shouldnt be able to say if we feel somethings a double standard or put up with any treatment or bullying, because if we say anything we get belittled as "crying persecution".

No body seems to have a problem if its liberal sponsered groups like ethnic minorities, gays, Muslims and feminists "crying persecution" over spilt milk.

I agree with you in regards to the difference.

In fact, I am of the opinion the actual number of true christians is overblown in US polls, because some people just claim to be christian, because it just feels like they should, to fit in.

 

[twob4me]

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