Perhaps today! The imminent return of Jesus Christ for His Church!

[BABerean2]

Explain to me how the Church gets into heaven for the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, recorded in Rev.19:7-8.

They died.

1Th 4:14　 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.　


1Th 5:10　 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

.....................................................................


　The crooked lawyer from Kansas who abandoned his wife and children, and later forged his own D.D..

"C.I. Scofield, D.D."

 

[jgr]

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.

Modern lads all.

 

[keras]

Pardon me! According to who and what are you claiming the teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church is opinion and pure conjecture! Read posts 45, 52 and 54 for starters, that refute you! Explain to me how the Church gets into heaven for the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. Then Jesus returns in His second coming to the earth, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white ad clean, in His armies from heaven, in verse 14!

The pre-trib rapture of the Church:

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth. Quasar92 2

A great list of the wise. You are included Quasar.
Too bad for all of you: Jesus said: I thank You Father, for hiding these things from the learned and wise and revealing them to the uneducated. Matthew 11:25-26 Yes, Father for that was Your choice.
This truth is confirmed by how 'the wise' fail to agree among themselves.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

It is funny how people are such respecter of persons. Quasar92 listed well respected and well studied men of God who believe in the pre-trib rapture. But people on this thread scorn their scholarship as well as our brother Quasar92.And pointing out the sin of our brother Scofield does not make any of us any better than he was. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.But all of us have been forgiven by our Father, including Scofield. And why is the opinion of some of the men who do not believe in the pre-trib rapture held in higher esteem than the men that Quasar92 listed. So what, they are modern men. Our Father works through modern men as well as He worked through the reformers. The reformers were just men, just as these "modern men". The Holy Spirit did not stop working in men when the laaaaast reformer died or the laaaast Apostle died. He still inspires to this day.

 

[keras]

We scorn their scholarship because they promote a theory that isn't Biblical, it is nowhere stated in the Bible that God intends to take the Church to heaven and that idea conflicts with what God actually does say He plans for His people.
Why does anyone believe it? Just the confusion over pre, mid and post rapture, is enough to prove it is a deception from the author of confusion.

I have posted often on this forum, of how we Christians will go to live in all of the holy Land, as is well prophesied. Read Psalms 107 for an interesting story about how this will happen. Psalms 107:43 finishes with: Whoever is wise, let them consider these things and lay them in their hearts. Think on the loving deeds of the Lord.

 

[Postvieww]

Pardon me! According to who and what are you claiming the teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church is opinion and pure conjecture! Read posts 45, 52 and 54 for starters, that refute you! Explain to me how the Church gets into heaven for the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. Then Jesus returns in His second coming to the earth, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white ad clean, in His armies from heaven, in verse 14!

Quasar, let me start by saying I hold no animosity toward you, we disagree on this doctrine, but we are still brothers in Christ. We all strive to learn the scriptures and seek truth. I will repeat I spent most of my Christian life since 1980 believing as you do. I have many books in my library written by some of the men you list and I still listen to some of them speak on video. That said, I came to a crossroads in the scriptures and began to realize what I had been taught as fact, I wasn’t able to find in the scriptures. This latest exchange is an example of what I am talking about, let me point it out.

I challenged your words about the church in heaven in Revelation 4:1-2 and your response doesn’t even refer to the passage in question. I have read all of your posts on the threads I responded to and know what most of the men teach that you listed. You have failed to really address the point I challenged you on in this case. I will repeat, there is no scriptural evidence the church is in heaven in Revelation 4:1-2.

If you believe there is you should be able to point it out to those of us who challenge you.

Revelation 4:1 After this I (John) looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

What in this verse says the church is in heaven to you? I see nothing in the text that even implies that may be the case.John was shown an open door in heaven and heard a voice which said “come up hither”. John in the spirit went up to heaven to have what we now debate over revealed to him. The voice is described “as it were a trumpet” the text doesn’t say it was a trumpet even if it did that is no proof the church was called to heaven. John was told to “come up hither” that is not addressed to the church it was addressed to John.

When you make a statement like “Stop trying to make Scripture fit what you want it to say!” Then you turn right around and do what you admonish us not to do of course you will be challenged.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

John said he was in the spirit and he was at the throne, not the church. Those are the cold hard facts.

You said “From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-“ it is up to you to defend that. Telling us all to go back and reread your post that really does not specifically address what you are questioned on, does not cut it. If you actually have an answer to the challenge you go back and quote that detailed answer, if I did missed it then include it in your response to my challenge and I will apologize for missing it.

I said your statement was opinion, I stand by that remark. If you had stated it as opinion we would not be having this conversation but you stated it as fact and moved on without the slightest bit of proof or argument from the text. I already know that many people think the church is shown in Revelation 4:1-2 but none of them can prove it without “conjecture”.


Now to your question, I have explained with scripture but I will gladly do it again.

The church got to heaven by dying.

1 Thessalonians 4: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.



Now to the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God:

The above passage is the entirety of information we are given in scripture on the “marriage supper”. We are not told any details about where it takes place. “Blessed are they which are called” is all we know for sure. I have my opinion as I am sure you do. To say this takes place in heaven during a 7 year stay by a resurrected church is just not in the text here.

As to the Church returning with Him in Revelation 19:7-8 I believe 2 Thessalonians 4:14 covers that for us.

I can show you the souls of those slain for the word of God in Revelation 6:9; I can show you a multitude in heaven that came out of great tribulation Revelation 7:9-14 But I cannot show you one resurrected/raptured member of “the Church” in heaven without opinion and conjecture.

Those in Revelation 19 are in white and so are those in Revelation 6 & 7. White robes do not prove a resurrected church is in heaven.

I could compile a list of esteemed men of God that do not believe in a pretreib rapture and the unpleasant fact is that one of our lists is still wrong and we still haven’t proved anything.


Now we are left with those words of Jesus:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

 

[Quasar92]

They died.

1Th 4:14　 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.　


1Th 5:10　 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

.....................................................................


　The crooked lawyer from Kansas who abandoned his wife and children, and later forged his own D.D..

"C.I. Scofield, D.D."

A review of my post #45 categorically refutes you.

Mt.7:1 "Do not judge, or you will be judged. 2For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Jn.8:7 "When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."


Recommended reading: http://www.capalert.com/judgenot.htm


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Quasar, let me start by saying I hold no animosity toward you, we disagree on this doctrine, but we are still brothers in Christ. We all strive to learn the scriptures and seek truth. I will repeat I spent most of my Christian life since 1980 believing as you do. I have many books in my library written by some of the men you list and I still listen to some of them speak on video. That said, I came to a crossroads in the scriptures and began to realize what I had been taught as fact, I wasn’t able to find in the scriptures. This latest exchange is an example of what I am talking about, let me point it out.

I challenged your words about the church in heaven in Revelation 4:1-2 and your response doesn’t even refer to the passage in question. I have read all of your posts on the threads I responded to and know what most of the men teach that you listed. You have failed to really address the point I challenge you on in this case. I will repeat, there is no scriptural evidence the church is in heaven in Revelation 4:1-2.

If you believe there is you should be able to point it out to those of us who challenge you.

Revelation 4:1 After this I (John) looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

What in this verse says the church is in heaven to you? I see nothing in the text that even implies that may be the case.John was shown an open door in heaven and heard a voice which said “come up hither”. John in the spirit went up to heaven to have what we now debate over revealed to him. The voice is described “as it were a trumpet” the text doesn’t say it was a trumpet even if it did that is no proof the church was called to heaven. John was told to “come up hither” that is not addressed to the church it was addressed to John.

When you make a statement like “Stop trying to make Scripture fit what you want it to say!” Then you turn right around and do what you admonish us not to do of course you will be challenged.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

John said he was in the spirit and he was at the throne, not the church. Those are the cold hard facts.

You said “From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-“ it is up to you to defend that. Telling us all to go back and reread your post that really does not specifically address what you are questioned on, does not cut it. If you actually have an answer to the challenge you go back and quote that detailed answer, if I did missed it and include in your response to my challenge and I will apologize for missing it.

I said your statement was opinion, I stand by that remark. If you had stated it as opinion we would not be having this conversation but you stated it as fact and moved on without the slightest bit of proof or argument from the text. I already know that many people think the church is shown in Revelation 4:1-2 but none of them can prove it without “conjecture”.


Now to your question, I have explained with scripture but I will gladly do it again.

The church got to heaven by dying.

1 Thessalonians 4: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.



Now to the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God:

The above passage is the entirety of information we are given in scripture on the “marriage supper”. We are not told any details about where it takes place. “Blessed are they which are called” is all we know for sure. I have my opinion as I am sure you do. To say this takes place in heaven during a 7 year stay by a resurrected church is just not in the text here.

As to the Church returning with Him in Revelation 19:7-8 I believe 2 Thessalonians 4:14 covers that for us.

I can show you the souls of those slain for the word of God in Revelation 6:9; I can show you a multitude in heaven that came out of great tribulation Revelation 7:9-14 But I cannot show you one resurrected/raptured member of “the Church” in heaven without opinion and conjecture.

Those in Revelation 19 are in white and so are those in Revelation 6 & 7. White robes do not prove a resurrected church is in heaven.

I could compile a list of esteemed men of God that do not believe in a pretreib rapture and the unpleasant fact is that one of our lists is still wrong and we still haven’t proved anything.


Now we are left with those words of Jesus:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Reference here is to prophecy yet to take place:

You need to jeep in mind, the millions of people who are going to be translated into heaven by Jesus, BESIDE those who previously die in Him. As recorded in 1 Cor.15:51-52 and in 1 Thess.4:15. In addition to that, in Rev.19:14, the Church is who reference is being made to.

Rev.19:1 "After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting:
“Hallelujah!"

Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,

2for true and just are his judgments.

He has condemned the great prostitute

who corrupted the earth by her adulteries.

He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”

3And again they shouted:

“Hallelujah!

The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.”

4The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne. And they cried:

“Amen, Hallelujah!”

5Then a voice came from the throne, saying:

“Praise our God,

all you his servants,

you who fear him,

both great and small!”

6Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:

“Hallelujah!

For our Lord God Almighty reigns.

7Let us rejoice and be glad

and give him glory!

For the wedding of the Lamb has come,

and his bride has made herself ready.

8Fine linen, bright and clean,

was given her to wear.”

(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)

9Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

10At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

The Heavenly Warrior Defeats the Beast

11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”a He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:"


The above is only part of what I will respond to in your above post, when time permits.


Quasar92

 

[Postvieww]

The above is only part of what I will respond to in your above post, when time permits.

I will be waiting for that response to the point on Revelation 4:1-2 when you have time. Thanks.

 

[jgr]

And why is the opinion of some of the men who do not believe in the pre-trib rapture held in higher esteem than the men that Quasar92 listed. So what, they are modern men. Our Father works through modern men as well as He worked through the reformers. The reformers were just men, just as these "modern men". The Holy Spirit did not stop working in men when the laaaaast reformer died or the laaaast Apostle died. He still inspires to this day.

Whenever a doctrine is considered for validity and authenticity, it is imperative that as part of that process, the doctrine's enduring recognition and acceptance within the annals of all true Christian Church doctrine, through the ages, be established. The inevitable outcome of the abandonment of such a process is doctrinal apostasy, chaos, and anarchy. Such abandonment and its outcomes are a classic hallmark of cults, who emerge claiming new truth, revealed only to them, but demonstrably absent from the body of historical orthodox doctrine of the true Christian Church.

The pretrib rapture doctrine fails the fundamental tests of orthodoxy, for it cannot be found as an enduring presence in the aforementioned annals of recognized and accepted historical true Christian doctrine. Dispensationalism has attempted to demonstrate references to the doctrine in the commentary of various historical authors, and indeed there are instances where the doctrine does make a seeming brief appearance. But for over 1700 years, almost no recognized Christian scholar, apologist, or theologian ever declared that any pretribulational claims in such commentaries represented accepted historical New Testament teaching.

The pretrib rapture thus qualifies overwhelmingly as a modern doctrine, with the associated cultic implications. For those of us like J.N. Darby for whom history is and was prophetically irrelevant, this is no problem. For the rest of us who recognize that the prophetic faith and sacrifice of the saints of old has given us the spiritual freedoms and benefits that we enjoy today, it is.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

 

[jgr]

I'm looking at the video at 17:35, "Beginning of the Millennial Reign." The quote is from the Epistle of Barnabas 15:7-9. It reads:
"Therefore, children, in six days, or in six thousand years, all the prophecies will be fulfilled. Then it says, 'He rested on the seventh day.' This signifies at the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus, He will destroy the Antichrist, judge the ungodly, and change the sun, moon, and stars. Then He will truly rest during the Millennial reign, which is the seventh day."
Epistle of Barnbas 15:7-9

Here is the Epistle of Barnabas in its entirety. Section 15:7-9 reads:
Barnabas 15:7
But if after all then and not till then shall we truly rest and
hallow it, when we shall ourselves be able to do so after being
justified and receiving the promise, when iniquity is no more and all
things have been made new by the Lord, we shall be able to hallow it
then, because we ourselves shall have been hallowed first.

Barnabas 15:8
Finally He saith to them; Your new moons and your Sabbaths I cannot
away with. Ye see what is His meaning ; it is not your present
Sabbaths that are acceptable [unto Me], but the Sabbath which I have
made, in the which, when I have set all things at rest, I will make
the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another
world.

Barnabas 15:9
Wherefore also we keep the eighth day for rejoicing, in the which
also Jesus rose from the dead, and having been manifested ascended
into the heavens.


Presumably the author erred honestly because as can be seen, 15:7-9 bear no resemblance to what is on the video.

It does appear that 15:4-5 is what was meant:

Barnabas 15:4
Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He
meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all
things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years;
and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of
the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six
days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end.

Barnabas 15:5
And He rested on the seventh day. this He meaneth; when His Son
shall come, and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One, and shall
judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the
stars, then shall he truly rest on the seventh day.


It is immediately evident that the text is markedly different. In particular, in addition to other discrepancies, the words "Millennial reign" do not appear. They are a speculative superimposition. The Epistle in fact says that "in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end" and "then shall he truly rest on the seventh day." There is no mention of a "Millennial reign."

The expression "the Antichrist" does not appear in Scripture. The only references to "antichrist(s)" are found in John's epistles. Paul's reference to the "Lawless One" ("that Wicked" in the KJV) and John's references to "antichrist(s)" are not correlated in or by Scripture.

There's no question that this video presenter is "dispensationalized."

 

[jgr]

Dr. Thomas Ice, Pre-Trib Research Center:

"Some have thought that Irenaeus (c. 180) could be a pre-trib rapture statement since
he actually speaks of the rapture: “the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this
[the tribulation],” as noted below:
And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from
this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the
beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in
which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.7
However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken
within the context of all of Irenaeus’ writings on these subjects, it appears that he was
not teaching pretribulationism."

 

[Biblewriter]

I'm looking at the video at 17:35, "Beginning of the Millennial Reign." The quote is from the Epistle of Barnabas 15:7-9. It reads:
"Therefore, children, in six days, or in six thousand years, all the prophecies will be fulfilled. Then it says, 'He rested on the seventh day.' This signifies at the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus, He will destroy the Antichrist, judge the ungodly, and change the sun, moon, and stars. Then He will truly rest during the Millennial reign, which is the seventh day."
Epistle of Barnbas 15:7-9

Here is the Epistle of Barnabas in its entirety. Section 15:7-9 reads:
Barnabas 15:7
But if after all then and not till then shall we truly rest and
hallow it, when we shall ourselves be able to do so after being
justified and receiving the promise, when iniquity is no more and all
things have been made new by the Lord, we shall be able to hallow it
then, because we ourselves shall have been hallowed first.

Barnabas 15:8
Finally He saith to them; Your new moons and your Sabbaths I cannot
away with. Ye see what is His meaning ; it is not your present
Sabbaths that are acceptable [unto Me], but the Sabbath which I have
made, in the which, when I have set all things at rest, I will make
the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another
world.

Barnabas 15:9
Wherefore also we keep the eighth day for rejoicing, in the which
also Jesus rose from the dead, and having been manifested ascended
into the heavens.


Presumably the author erred honestly because as can be seen, 15:7-9 bear no resemblance to what is on the video.

It does appear that 15:4-5 is what was meant:

Barnabas 15:4
Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He
meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all
things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years;
and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of
the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six
days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end.

Barnabas 15:5
And He rested on the seventh day. this He meaneth; when His Son
shall come, and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One, and shall
judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the
stars, then shall he truly rest on the seventh day.


It is immediately evident that the text is markedly different. In particular, in addition to other discrepancies, the words "Millennial reign" do not appear. They are a speculative superimposition. The Epistle in fact says that "in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end" and "then shall he truly rest on the seventh day." There is no mention of a "Millennial reign."

The expression "the Antichrist" does not appear in Scripture. The only references to "antichrist(s)" are found in John's epistles. Paul's reference to the "Lawless One" ("that Wicked" in the KJV) and John's references to "antichrist(s)" are not correlated in or by Scripture.

There's no question that this video presenter is "dispensationalized."

What translation are you using?

My translation of this passage reads:

“The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of the creation [thus]: ‘And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it.’Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, ‘He finished in six days.’ This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, will be as a thousand years. Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. ‘And He rested on the seventh day.’ This meaneth: when His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the-sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day. Moreover, He says, ‘Thou shalt sanctify it with pure hands and a pure heart.’ If, therefore, any one can now sanctify the day which God hath sanctified, except he is pure in heart in all things, Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves.”

- from Volume 1 of “The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers,” edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, as found in its American edition edited by A. Cleveland Coxe, and as found online at Christian Classics Ethereal Library.

In this translation, instead of "everything shall come to an end," it says "all things will be finished." This is a material difference in statement. But As I do not have the Greek text, I do not know which is correct.

But, while you are technically correct that Barnabas did not explicitly say that the day of rest would last a thousand years, he very clearly implied it, by clearly teaching that in the prophetic interpretation of this passage, a day meant a thousand years, and that the day of rest would come after the six thousandth year.

And although he did not actually say "THE ANTICHRIST," he did clearly refer to the figure known by that name as
the wicked man."

 

[Quasar92]

I will be waiting for that response to the point on Revelation 4:1-2 when you have time. Thanks.

Ancient Jewish marriage customs:

Notice: To address anomalies seen in your post: Before the wedding, the proper term is 'bride:' Not wife. [I am aware of the miss-translations in some Bibles.]

The marriage feast/supper is the very last event of 12, does not take place in Rev.19:7-8, but most likely, after Jesus has established His Millennial kingdom, after Israel has been reconciled in Zech.12:10.

Recommenced reading:

The Jewish Wedding.

Jesus symbolic reference to the Church being called up to heaven, before the tribulation begins: Rev.4:1 "After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it."

Confirmation of the Church being in heaven:

Rev.19:7 "Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear.”

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. rom where Jesus will take us to our Father in heaven as He promised in Jn.14:2-3 and 28. That Confirms Rev.4:1-2. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

What translation are you using?

My translation of this passage reads:

“The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of the creation [thus]: ‘And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it.’Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, ‘He finished in six days.’ This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, will be as a thousand years. Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. ‘And He rested on the seventh day.’ This meaneth: when His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the-sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day. Moreover, He says, ‘Thou shalt sanctify it with pure hands and a pure heart.’ If, therefore, any one can now sanctify the day which God hath sanctified, except he is pure in heart in all things, Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves.”

- from Volume 1 of “The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers,” edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, as found in its American edition edited by A. Cleveland Coxe, and as found online at Christian Classics Ethereal Library.

In this translation, instead of "everything shall come to an end," it says "all things will be finished." This is a material difference in statement. But As I do not have the Greek text, I do not know which is correct.

But, while you are technically correct that Barnabas did not explicitly say that the day of rest would last a thousand years, he very clearly implied it, by clearly teaching that in the prophetic interpretation of this passage, a day meant a thousand years, and that the day of rest would come after the six thousandth year.

And although he did not actually say "THE ANTICHRIST," he did clearly refer to the figure known by that name as
the wicked man."

Epistle of Barnabas
No "millennial reign" in either yours or mine.
No "the Antichrist" in either yours or mine.

 

[jgr]

Ancient Jewish marriage customs:

Notice: To address anomalies seen in your post: Before the wedding, the proper term is 'bride:' Not wife. [I am aware of the miss-translations in some Bibles.]

The marriage feast/supper is the very last event of 12, does not take place in Rev.19:7-8, but most likely, after Jesus has established His Millennial kingdom, after Israel has been reconciled in Zech.12:10.

Recommenced reading:

The Jewish Wedding.

Jesus symbolic reference to the Church being called up to heaven, before the tribulation begins: Rev.4:1 "After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it."

Confirmation of the Church being in heaven:

Rev.19:7 "Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear.”

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. rom where Jesus will take us to our Father in heaven as He promised in Jn.14:2-3 and 28. That Confirms Rev.4:1-2. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.


Quasar92

Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

Departing/departure means departure from the truth i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

Wycliffe himself identified antichrist as the papacy, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He unquestionably therefore did not believe in a pretrib rapture.


And from Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified antichrist as the papacy, and thus did not believe in a pretrib rapture.
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and almost certainly of like persuasion.
Beza was almost certainly of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who defined the word as anything other than apostasy.

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3

 

[Biblewriter]

Epistle of Barnabas
No "millennial reign" in either yours or mine.
No "the Antichrist" in either yours or mine.

But both are clearly referred to in both translations.

 

[Postvieww]

If we are to use Irenaeus we need to not take a snipit here and there and take him out of context as some many times do in scripture.


Irenaeus was not pre-trib! Go back and read his works and the snipits in context.


Here is one quote : Book V; XXXV:1


“For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, WHICH TAKES PLACE AFTER THE COMING OF ANTICHRIST, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: "


Caps are mine.


Also in the posted video at the 16:24 mark the quote from Irenaeus takes quite a different view of “falling away” than some who declare it means “departure of the church”.


Maybe we should spend some quality time in the works of Irenaeus there is much more to discuss.

 

[Postvieww]

Jesus symbolic reference to the Church being called up to heaven, before the tribulation begins: Rev.4:1 "After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it."

Still stating opinion as fact. What is your proof from the text?

Confirmation of the Church being in heaven:

We have not established a resurrected church in heaven from any text.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church]

Irenaeus disagrees with you.


You have posted much material here and still not addressed Revelation 4:1-2 with evidence from the text that it shows the church in heaven. If you want to concede it is your opinion and not a theological fact, I’m good with that.