Perhaps today! The imminent return of Jesus Christ for His Church!

Goatee

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1 Thess.1:10 "and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.


Qiasar92"

Wrath is after the Tribulation.
 
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Quasar92

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GNV Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

WEB Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

WEB Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

The above are the translations I found on Bible Gateway that use departure or departing. None of them say or imply departing of the church. How many of the ones you referenced say or imply the departing of the church?

Departing from the faith fits perfectly with, falling away, apostasy, rebellion, rebel against God, revolt, turning away from God, definite rejection of God, people rise up against God and stop believing God, which the other translations use. Not one says departure of the church.

It is total fantasy to take only the word “departing” and transform that into meaning the pretrib rapture of the church. There is no reason from the text to make such a claim it is only the desire of some to make this passage say something other than what it says.


This appears to be a classic case of “trying to make Scripture fit what you want it to say”.


The meaning and proper translation of 2 Thess.2:3

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Thess.4:17 IS THE THEME OF THE FOLLOWING PASSAGE OF 2 Thess.2:1-8:

2 Thess.2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the departure [apostasia/discessio: Greek /Latin words meaning the departure/rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back [The one body of Christ, the Church with the indwelling Holy Spirit] will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way [Raptured - confirming verse 3]. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming." [Prenthetics mine]

TRANSLATION HISTORY OF 2 THESS.2:3:

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Verse 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The one body of Christ - he Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia/discessio," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in verse 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Verse 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.



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Quasar92

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Who owns the trumpet the 7th angel is blowing in Revelation 11:15?

.


The Scriptural issue pertains to WHO BLOWS THE TRUMPET! God, an angel or a human being. What relevance does your post have to any passage of Scripture in the Bible asking who owns the trumpet?


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BABerean2

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What relevance does your post have to any passage of Scripture in the Bible asking who owns the trumpet?

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 
1Co 15:23  But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 
1Co 15:24  Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 
(See Revelation 11:15, to find out when this occurs.)


1Co 15:50
  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 
1Co 15:51  Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 
1Co 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 
1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY." 


Rev 11:15  Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 

Rev 11:18  The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."
(The judgment and bodily resurrection of "all" the dead is found in the words of Christ in John 5:27-30.) 


How can anyone claim to interpret the Bible "literally" and then claim that the last trumpet in the Bible is not the "last trumpet", when there is no 8th trumpet?

.
 
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Biblewriter

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As usual, in this thread all the arguments against the pre-tribulation rapture (That is, the doctrine that the rapture will take place before the fulfillment of the seventieth week of Daniel's prophecy.) are based on a rank assumption that our Lord is only going to return one time. This is something that is simply never stated, anywhere in the entire Bible.

In the Old Testament, there was not even one statement that the great promised Messiah would come more than just one time. But the Old Testament included prophecies that would be contradictory if He had been only coming one time.

And in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit did the same thing. He never stated that our Lord would return more than a single time. But He did give us prophecies about His return that would be contradictions if He were only returning one time.

Some have counted as many as fifty distinct differences between the scriptures about His coming for his own, which has come to be called "the rapture," and his coming to judge the world for its wickedness. Most of these are only differences. But some of them contain details which would be flat contradictions if He were only returning one time.

The precedent set on the Old Testament shows us that the resolution to these apparent contradictions is that He will return more than just one time.
 
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2 Thessalonians in context;

2 Thessalonians Chapter 1

1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

When does Paul say there will be rest? Answer: When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels. Matthew 24:31

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Nothing in the above 4 verses sounds like a snatching away to heaven of believers. When He comes from heaven we rest, he takes vengeance on them that know not God, and He is glorified in His saints. There is not even a hint of returning to heaven in this passage and Jesus deals will both the saints and the ungodly in this 1 coming.

11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.





2 Thessalonians Chapter 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

There is no reason from the text to make this a different coming that the one in chapter 1:7-10


Paul is absolutely clear we are gathered at this coming and it is the same coming in which we find rest, He is glorified in His saints and He takes vengeance on them that know not God. There is no trip to heaven for the church anywhere in this epistle.


2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

In context, the day of Christ is the same day as the coming of our Lord in verse 1 and 7-10 in chapter 1. Compare 1 Corinthians 1:8, Philippians 1:6, Philippians 1:10, Philippians 2:16.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The same day as Chapter 1:7-10 and verses 1 & 2 in this chapter.


The assertion that falling away in this passage refers to a separate coming of the Lord other than the one in the context of these two chapters defies all rules of proper exegesis and logic. There is absolutely no justification for chopping up this text to make it say something other that what it plainly says. Paul did not jump back and forth talking about different comings of the Lord to satisfy our doctrinal fancies. Paul did not hide a coming of the Lord in the word “apostasia” to be found only by those who need to find one.There is one more coming of the Lord in our future!


4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

There is nothing in this text to identify “what withholdeth” as the church. Theories I have read or put forth on this forum include 1.The church 2. The Holy Spirit within the church. 3. God Himself 4 . an angel probably Michael.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

When is the church ever referred to in scripture as “HE”?


How can the omnipresent Holy Spirit be taken out of the way?


How can God himself be taken out of the way and who would do it ?


8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


This coming in the context of this book of 2 Thessalonians , is the same coming in 1:7-10 and 2:1-3.There is no other coming of the Lord in our future.


9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.





2 Thessalonians Chapter 3



1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:

2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.

5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

The only reference to His coming in this chapter. The one and only coming referred to in this book and yet in our future.

6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.

12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.

14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

Might this apply to those that use a doctrinal knife on this epistle to obtain multiple comings of the Lord?

15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

16 Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all.

17 The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.

18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Let Paul through inspired scripture say what he said.
 
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First of all, Paul's reference to the "last trumpet," in 1 Cor.15:51-52, is that of God, not by an angel, pertaining to the resurrection.

1 Corin doesn't mention the owner or who sounds the trumpet, you must have meant 1 Thess. 4. Even 1 Thess 4 doesn't say who blows it what was your point?

The Scriptural issue pertains to WHO BLOWS THE TRUMPET! God, an angel or a human being. What relevance does your post have to any passage of Scripture in the Bible asking who owns the trumpet?

A distinction without a difference?
 
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As usual, in this thread all the arguments against the pre-tribulation rapture (That is, the doctrine that the rapture will take place before the fulfillment of the seventieth week of Daniel's prophecy.) are based on a rank assumption that our Lord is only going to return one time. This is something that is simply never stated, anywhere in the entire Bible.

In the Old Testament, there was not even one statement that the great promised Messiah would come more than just one time. But the Old Testament included prophecies that would be contradictory if He had been only coming one time.

And in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit did the same thing. He never stated that our Lord would return more than a single time. But He did give us prophecies about His return that would be contradictions if He were only returning one time.

Some have counted as many as fifty distinct differences between the scriptures about His coming for his own, which has come to be called "the rapture," and his coming to judge the world for its wickedness. Most of these are only differences. But some of them contain details which would be flat contradictions if He were only returning one time.

The precedent set on the Old Testament shows us that the resolution to these apparent contradictions is that He will return more than just one time.

No two coming of the Lord passages in scripture are identical. Using your theory how many comings of the Lord does that create? 50?

How do we narrow it down to just 2 more?

Paul didn't have a problem with this in 2 Thessalonians. He had the Lord being glorified in His saints, saints finding rest and taking vengeance on them that know not God in the same passage. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
 
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Quasar92

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1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 
1Co 15:23  But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 
1Co 15:24  Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 
(See Revelation 11:15, to find out when this occurs.)


1Co 15:50
  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 
1Co 15:51  Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 
1Co 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 
1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY." 


Rev 11:15  Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 

Rev 11:18  The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."
(The judgment and bodily resurrection of "all" the dead is found in the words of Christ in John 5:27-30.) 


How can anyone claim to interpret the Bible "literally" and then claim that the last trumpet in the Bible is not the "last trumpet", when there is no 8th trumpet?

.


The chronological order of end time events:

1. The very next prophetic event to take place will be the rapture of the Church, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. In Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:13-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8; Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ, to all those who are still alive at His coming in the clouds of the sky, for His Church, where we will all meet Jesus, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

2. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceeds the revealing of the man of lawlessness/beast/antichrist, according to 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. Which then immediately sets off the seven years of tribulation, as recorded in Mt.24:4-31, Jesus amplification of Dan.9:27. Where the person who is all three of the "he's" in that verse, and the rider of the white horse in Rev.6:2, is revealed. All of whom are the antichrist. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70th Week of Dan.9:27 will begin.

3. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as "Jacob's Trouble," and in Dan.9:27, the 70th and final week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 "Weeks" [7 years each] of years He has decreed upon the entire destiny of Israel. From the end of their 70 year exile, through the coming seven year tribulation. The person who will set it of is the antichrist, the "he" who will establish a seven year covenant/agreement with them. Dan.9:27.

Jesus amplified and confirmed Daniel's 70th and final "Week," consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in Mt.24:15 and 21, and in the counterparts of Mk.13 and in Lk.21.

4. The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was reestablished on May 14, 1948.

5. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is called up into heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, confirming 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8. As prophecied in Jn.14:2-4, 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, while Israel and all non-believers will go through the seven year tribulation. The Church is seen again at their marriage of the Lamb [Jesus Christ] to His Bride [The Church] in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-9, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.

6. Jesus will return, seven ears later, with His Church, following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints [Verse 8 NIV]. In His Second Coming to the earth, with His angels, in His armies from heaven, in Zech.14:4-5, Mt.24:31, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14.

7. Jesus will fight the battle of Armageddon, with His armies from heaven and end it, recorded in Rev.19:11-21. And save the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah, recorded in Zech.12:10, and "all Israel will be saved," recorded in Rom.11:26...

8. The antichrist and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire, and the armies of the ten horns [nations] are destroyed. Rev19:17-21. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold [Israel and His Church] and one Shepherd. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70 Weeks prophecy in Dan.9:27 will end.
9..Satan is caught and thrown into the Abyss for the same 1,000 years that Jesus will reign, in His kingdom here on the earth. Rev.20:6, confirming Mt.6:9-13; Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47; Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16.

10. The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those brought to the Lord during the tribulation by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists. They will be martyred during the tribulation, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them. Those who are brought to Christ by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, in the absence of the departed Church during the tribulation, do not belong to the Christian Church [who will be raptured before the seven year tribulation begins, as addressed above]. They will be made priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years, after their resurrection, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. They will be beheaded and pay with their lives for their testimony of Jesus, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them..

11. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will consist of the one body of Christ, His Church, all those who survived the tribulation, besides the resurrected martyrs, and the remnant of Israel. In numbers alone, from an estimated original 7 billion people, there will only be 2.3 billion remaining , of those who had to go through the tribulation, recorded in Zech.13:8. Life expectancy will be greatly increased. Isa.65:20 and 11:6-9.

12. Jesus 1,000 year kingdom will begin at this point, according to Rev.20:6, here on the earth, on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, confirming Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16. At the same time the 1,000 years Satan will be in the Abyss, according to Rev.20:1-3. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold, Israel and the Church, with one Shepherd. When Jesus Millennial kingdom has ended, 1,000 years later, at the Great White Throne judgment, recorded in Rev.20:11-15. Satan will be released and go out to deceive the people and nations again in his last rebellion against God and gather a huge army who come against God's people, surrounding Jerusalem. But God will send fire and sulfur down from heaven, as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them all, and throwing Satan into the lake of fire, forever, in Rev.20:7-10.

13. The second resurrection takes place according to Rev.20:5, that consists of all those who will be saved during the Millennial reign of Jesus here on the earth, as well as the Godless and wicked, at the Great White Throne Judgment, set up to judge them, right here on earth. The sea, death and Hades all give up their dead and will then be thrown into the lake of fire. Meaning, that all who were in the 'temporal holding tanks' of Sheol, Hades and Hell will be removed to face judgment, along with death itself, disposed of forever. For all those who participate in the second resurrection, if their name is not found in the book of life, will be thrown into the lake of fire forever. Rev.20:11-15, and Dan.12:2 and Mt.25:46 will be fulfilled.

14. The old heaven and earth will pass away, recorded in Rev.21:1 [Destroyed by fire according to 2 Pet.3:7] and God will provide an all new heaven and earth, and the new eternal city of Jerusalem will descend from heaven, 1,500 miles long and as wide as it is long and as high as it is wide, Rev.21:1-16.

15. The rest of chapters 21 and 22 allude to a description of the coming eternal city and life of all believers who will be with the Lord forever.


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The chronological order of end time events:

1. The very next prophetic event to take place will be the rapture of the Church, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. In Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:13-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8; Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ, to all those who are still alive at His coming in the clouds of the sky, for His Church, where we will all meet Jesus, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

2. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceeds the revealing of the man of lawlessness/beast/antichrist, according to 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. Which then immediately sets off the seven years of tribulation, as recorded in Mt.24:4-31, Jesus amplification of Dan.9:27. Where the person who is all three of the "he's" in that verse, and the rider of the white horse in Rev.6:2, is revealed. All of whom are the antichrist. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70th Week of Dan.9:27 will begin.

3. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as "Jacob's Trouble," and in Dan.9:27, the 70th and final week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 "Weeks" [7 years each] of years He has decreed upon the entire destiny of Israel. From the end of their 70 year exile, through the coming seven year tribulation. The person who will set it of is the antichrist, the "he" who will establish a seven year covenant/agreement with them. Dan.9:27.

Jesus amplified and confirmed Daniel's 70th and final "Week," consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in Mt.24:15 and 21, and in the counterparts of Mk.13 and in Lk.21.

4. The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was reestablished on May 14, 1948.

5. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is called up into heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, confirming 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8. As prophecied in Jn.14:2-4, 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, while Israel and all non-believers will go through the seven year tribulation. The Church is seen again at their marriage of the Lamb [Jesus Christ] to His Bride [The Church] in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-9, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.

6. Jesus will return, seven ears later, with His Church, following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints [Verse 8 NIV]. In His Second Coming to the earth, with His angels, in His armies from heaven, in Zech.14:4-5, Mt.24:31, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14.

7. Jesus will fight the battle of Armageddon, with His armies from heaven and end it, recorded in Rev.19:11-21. And save the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah, recorded in Zech.12:10, and "all Israel will be saved," recorded in Rom.11:26...

8. The antichrist and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire, and the armies of the ten horns [nations] are destroyed. Rev19:17-21. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold [Israel and His Church] and one Shepherd. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70 Weeks prophecy in Dan.9:27 will end.
9..Satan is caught and thrown into the Abyss for the same 1,000 years that Jesus will reign, in His kingdom here on the earth. Rev.20:6, confirming Mt.6:9-13; Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47; Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16.

10. The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those brought to the Lord during the tribulation by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists. They will be martyred during the tribulation, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them. Those who are brought to Christ by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, in the absence of the departed Church during the tribulation, do not belong to the Christian Church [who will be raptured before the seven year tribulation begins, as addressed above]. They will be made priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years, after their resurrection, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. They will be beheaded and pay with their lives for their testimony of Jesus, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them..

11. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will consist of the one body of Christ, His Church, all those who survived the tribulation, besides the resurrected martyrs, and the remnant of Israel. In numbers alone, from an estimated original 7 billion people, there will only be 2.3 billion remaining , of those who had to go through the tribulation, recorded in Zech.13:8. Life expectancy will be greatly increased. Isa.65:20 and 11:6-9.

12. Jesus 1,000 year kingdom will begin at this point, according to Rev.20:6, here on the earth, on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, confirming Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16. At the same time the 1,000 years Satan will be in the Abyss, according to Rev.20:1-3. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold, Israel and the Church, with one Shepherd. When Jesus Millennial kingdom has ended, 1,000 years later, at the Great White Throne judgment, recorded in Rev.20:11-15. Satan will be released and go out to deceive the people and nations again in his last rebellion against God and gather a huge army who come against God's people, surrounding Jerusalem. But God will send fire and sulfur down from heaven, as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them all, and throwing Satan into the lake of fire, forever, in Rev.20:7-10.

13. The second resurrection takes place according to Rev.20:5, that consists of all those who will be saved during the Millennial reign of Jesus here on the earth, as well as the Godless and wicked, at the Great White Throne Judgment, set up to judge them, right here on earth. The sea, death and Hades all give up their dead and will then be thrown into the lake of fire. Meaning, that all who were in the 'temporal holding tanks' of Sheol, Hades and Hell will be removed to face judgment, along with death itself, disposed of forever. For all those who participate in the second resurrection, if their name is not found in the book of life, will be thrown into the lake of fire forever. Rev.20:11-15, and Dan.12:2 and Mt.25:46 will be fulfilled.

14. The old heaven and earth will pass away, recorded in Rev.21:1 [Destroyed by fire according to 2 Pet.3:7] and God will provide an all new heaven and earth, and the new eternal city of Jerusalem will descend from heaven, 1,500 miles long and as wide as it is long and as high as it is wide, Rev.21:1-16.

15. The rest of chapters 21 and 22 allude to a description of the coming eternal city and life of all believers who will be with the Lord forever.


Quasar02


Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar92
 
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Biblewriter

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No two coming of the Lord passages in scripture are identical. Using your theory how many comings of the Lord does that create? 50?

How do we narrow it down to just 2 more?

Paul didn't have a problem with this in 2 Thessalonians. He had the Lord being glorified in His saints, saints finding rest and taking vengeance on them that know not God in the same passage. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

I never so much as implied that mere differences in statements demonstrate more than a single coming. But what I pointed out is that some of these differences are not mere differences, but contradictions, if the Lord were only coming back one time. So we have two choices. We can ether conclude that God contradicted himself. Or that our Lord is going to return more than just one time.
 
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BABerean2

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The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceeds the revealing of the man of lawlessness/beast/antichrist, according to 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. Which then immediately sets off the seven years of tribulation, as recorded in Mt.24:4-31, Jesus amplification of Dan.9:27. Where the person who is all three of the "he's" in that verse, and the rider of the white horse in Rev.6:2, is revealed. All of whom are the antichrist. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70th Week of Dan.9:27 will begin.

Nice "story".

The only way to see the 70th week of Daniel is with a time machine set to return you to the first century.

It was the week of years when the Gospel was taken first to Daniel's people before it was taken to the Gentiles, as confirmed by the following scripture.


Mat 10:5  These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 
Mat 10:6  But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 
Mat 10:7  And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' 


Act 2:36  "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 


Gal 1:11  But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 
Gal 1:12  For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. 
Gal 1:13  For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 
Gal 1:14  And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 
Gal 1:15  But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, 
Gal 1:16  to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 
Gal 1:17  nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. (See Galatians 4:25.)
Gal 1:18  Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. 

.
 
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Biblewriter

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Nice "story".

The only way to see the 70th week of Daniel is with a time machine set to return you to the first century.

It was the week of years when the Gospel was taken first to Daniel's people before it was taken to the Gentiles, as confirmed by the following scripture.


Mat 10:5  These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 
Mat 10:6  But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 
Mat 10:7  And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' 


Act 2:36  "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 


Gal 1:11  But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 
Gal 1:12  For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. 
Gal 1:13  For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 
Gal 1:14  And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 
Gal 1:15  But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, 
Gal 1:16  to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 
Gal 1:17  nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. 
Gal 1:18  Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. 

.

If Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled in the first century, why did every Christian who wrote about it in the following century, see the seventieth week as delayed in fulfillment?

This notion could not take root until there were no longer any significant number of people who actually knew that the events of the first century did not actually match Daniel's prophecy.
 
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Postvieww

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I never so much as implied that mere differences in statements demonstrate more than a single coming. But what I pointed out is that some of these differences are not mere differences, but contradictions, if the Lord were only coming back one time. So we have two choices. We can ether conclude that God contradicted himself. Or that our Lord is going to return more than just one time.

I disagree, I see no contradictions in the texts, but I will concede many in some interpretations of what is written.
 
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BABerean2

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If Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled in the first century, why did every Christian who wrote about it in the following century, see the seventieth week as delayed in fulfillment?

This notion could not take root until there were no longer any significant number of people who actually knew that the events of the first century did not actually match Daniel's prophecy.

Maybe they were human beings, just like us.

We would have to ask them the same questions that I will now ask you...


In Matthew 10:5-7, did Christ command His disciples to take the Gospel to the house of Israel, but not to the Gentiles?


In Galatians 1:11-18, did Paul reveal that he did not take the Gospel to the Gentiles until three years after his conversion?


If you add together the length of the time of Christ's earthly ministry to the three years found in Galatians chapter 1, how many years do you come up with? Now add to that at least a few months between Calvary and the stoning of Stephen.
What number do you get now?
How many years was the Gospel taken to the Jewish people before it was taken to the Gentiles?



Instead of relying on the writings of Irenaeus or others, why don't we use basic math?
 
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From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church.


Complete opinion and conjecture. There is no scriptural evidence the church is in heaven in Revelation 4:1-2. There is nothing in scripture to support the notion that Jesus used John to symbolically represent the church in Rev 4:1-2!
 
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keras

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The precedent set on the Old Testament shows us that the resolution to these apparent contradictions is that He will return more than just one time.
The many prophesies that do, as you correctly say, tell about the Lord coming before His glorious Return, are all about His coming in wrath and judgement. NOTHING to do with removing anybody.
Going to heaven contradicts Jesus Words five times: John 3:13, John 7:34, John 8:21-2, John 17:15, Revelation 5:10 and in Proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall never be removed and the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.
 
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Quasar92

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Complete opinion and conjecture. There is no scriptural evidence the church is in heaven in Revelation 4:1-2. There is nothing in scripture to support the notion that Jesus used John to symbolically represent the church in Rev 4:1-2!


Pardon me! According to who and what are you claiming the teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church is opinion and pure conjecture! Read posts 45, 52 and 54 for starters, that refute you! Explain to me how the Church gets into heaven for the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. Then Jesus returns in His second coming to the earth, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white ad clean, in His armies from heaven, in verse 14!

The pre-trib rapture of the Church:

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.


Quasar92
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