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Featured Perhaps today! The imminent return of Jesus Christ for His Church!

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Jul 19, 2017.

  1. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    [Staff edit].
    Yes, I understand it.
    John 14:1-2 is telling us about the New Jerusalem that will come down to earth after the Millennium. And when Jesus Returns to earth, He will gather His faithful people to Him, exactly as Matthew 24:31 says.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2017
  2. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you should be asking yourself why when Jesus spoke these sentences together in the same context, they are contradictory in your understanding. It is not He in contradiction. It is you, rest assured.
     
  3. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Your understanding in verse 36 is 'escape', that is: a rapture to heaven, whereas verse 35 plainly says that what will happen will affect everyone the whole world over. Rest assured, you are in error.
    This prophecy does not say 'escape' first, then the Lord's Day of wrath, its the other way round and that terrible Day will surprise everyone, but those Christians who have read what the Lord has said we must do: Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21
    He will be at our side, our protection on that Day. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 50:1-6, 1 Corinthians 10:13, +
     
  4. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's time to cut out the support for the views you have been holding to and doing a serious study of the Scriptures that refute them.

    1 Thess.1:10 "and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." Which means, BEFORE IT TAKES PLACE! [Staff edit].

    Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

    The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

    The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

    1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

    2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

    3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

    4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.

    As you can see, the Bride/Church is seen in heaven for the marriage to the Lamb/Jesus, according to Rev.19:7-8, while the tribulation takes place on earth. Would you care to hazard a guess as how they got into heaven, refuting you? Then they are seen returning from heaven with Jesus, in His Second Coming to the earth, in verse 14,



    Quasar92
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2017
  5. Emmy

    Emmy Senior Veteran

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    Sear Quasar92. Perhaps today? What a wonderful thought. But perhaps we must wait a bit longer, and learn how to follow God`s Commandments. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy hearts, with all thy souls, and with all thy minds. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself: treat all we know and all we meet as we would love to be treated. God is Love, and God wants loving men and women.
    The Bible tells us: give up all selfish and unloving behaviour, Love God and love your neighbour. Who is our neighbour? all we know and all we meet. We ask God for Love and Joy, then we thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: Ask and you shall receive. We ask for Love and Compassion, then we thank God and share all love and joy with all around us. God will see our loving and caring, and God will greatly Bless us. It is straightforward and Love is very catching. Let us start following thes simle rules, God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. I say this with love, Quasar. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
     
  6. Emmy

    Emmy Senior Veteran

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    Dear Quasar. Forgive the little mistakes, but I always have to end my answers quickly, because after a very short while they disappear. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
     
  7. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    Show us a church in heaven in Revelation 4:1-2 without violating your own statement above.


    John is the only one taken up to heaven, in the spirit in this passage. Any thing more is reading into it "what you want it to say".
     
  8. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    [Staff edit].

    In the vision Jesus gave to John, He used John symbolically to represent the Church that will be CAUGHT UP to Him in the sky, BEFORE the tribulation begins, as He promised in Jn.14:2-3 and 28; amplified by Paul in 1 Thess.4:17.

    Where do you think Jesus takes the Church after their meeting in the sky? How do you think they got into heaven for the marriage, in Rev.19:7-8? Whu do you see the Church returning with Jesus, from their marriage in heaven, when He returns to the earth in His Second Coming, as recorded in verse 14?

    Review the translation history of 2 Thes.2:3 in the following:

    2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:

    "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

    The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

    In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

    Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.

    The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

    Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

    "He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

    The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:

    In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

    The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

    In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

    The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

    From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


    Qusar92
     
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  9. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    2 Cor. 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

    Now what do most kingdoms/countries do before hostilities? They close up their embassies and call their ambassadors home. Kind of a rapture. LOL.^_^ Now, imho, our Father, being the all wise God of the universe, will do no less for His ambassadors.
     
  10. Adstar

    Adstar Well-Known Member

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    All the signs that the Bible tells us will happen before the return of jesus must happen before one can look up and lift our heads and know that our redemption is near..

    So the Son of perdition / the anti-christ must appear and we must face the great persecution from him and his followers before the Great day of the LORD Jesus Christ..
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  11. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Church will be raptured before the man of lawlessness is revealed. Review my post #30 for the precise timing of it.


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    That would be the author of the Book of Hebrews.
    Israel and the Church cannot be separated in the passages below.


    Heb 8:6  But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 
    Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 
    Heb 8:8  Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— 
    Heb 8:9  NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 
    Heb 8:10  FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 
    Heb 8:11  NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 
    Heb 8:12  FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." 
    Heb 8:13  In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. 


    Heb 12:22  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 
    Heb 12:23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 
    Heb 12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.



    When the Church began on the Day of Pentecost almost all of its members were Israelites.

     
    Act 2:36  "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 


    The Gentiles were not grafted into the New Covenant Church until several years later.


    .
     
  13. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    Quasar92 said:

    In the vision Jesus gave to John, He used John symbolically to represent the Church that will be CAUGHT UP to Him in the sky, BEFORE the tribulation begins,


    There is a problem with your statement “He used John symbolically to represent the Church that will be CAUGHT UP to Him in the sky, BEFORE the tribulation begins”.

    1. When you assign a symbolic meaning for something in the book of Revelation and declare it to be fact what did you base it on?


    Examples: a. The candlesticks in Revelation 1:12 are symbolic of the 7 churches verse 20 and the seven stars of verse 16 are symbolic of the angels verse 20.


    b. The dragon is symbolic for satan or the devil we are told that in Revelation 12:9.


    c. The Lamb is symbolic for Jesus, we should have no trouble or disagreement figuring that one out.


    d. The woman, great whore, mystery Babylon of Revelation 17 is symbolic for a great city Rev. 17:18.


    2. In Revelation 4:1-2 I see no symbolic imagery. John was in the spirit and was caught up to the throne room in heaven and shown a series of visions. That is a literal fact. To declare it as a type of a raptured church to heaven is based on what from the text? The only possible things I see that anyone could possibly use is the phrase “caught up” and that is a major stretch. The text only says John was caught up and he was shown a series of visions.


    3. John being caught up to the throne room cannot possibly be the church raptured to heaven because:


    a. When John arrives in the spirit, it is a flash back in time for John at first not a future vision. John’s vision starts before the ascension of Jesus. There is no mention of Jesus being there until one of the elders declares Jesus had prevailed and was worthy to open the book Revelation 5:5 and in 5:6 we have the appearance of Jesus. He was not previously mentioned and we were told He was nowhere to be found until His appearance in verse 6.


    b. The timing of this vision cannot possible be representative of the rapture of the church to heaven more that 2000 years later. The timing and events John were shown in Revelation 4 &5 were in John’s real time past not his future.


    c. There is absolutely no mention of the church being caught up here or arriving in this passage.


    d. There is no way from the text of Revelation 4:1-2 to tie the church to the events described here in any way except to violate your own statement
    “Stop trying to make Scripture fit what you want it to say! Capiche?!”.

    Quasar92 said:

    as He promised in Jn.14:2-3 and 28; amplified by Paul in 1 Thess.4:17.

    There is no mention of a trip to heaven in any of the passages above. Only the assumption one is there because you are “trying to make Scripture fit what you want it to say! Capiche?!”.

    Quasar92 said:

    Where do you think Jesus takes the Church after their meeting in the sky?

    The earth to rule and reign with Him!

    How do you think they got into heaven for the marriage,

    As has been previously stated, THEY DIED.


    You have assumed those mentioned in heaven are resurrected/raptured saints of the whole church. Nothing in the book of Revelation says that.


    1. Revelation 6:9-11, tells us they are the souls of them slain for the word of God and that should rest a while longer. These are not a raptured/ resurrected church.


    2. Revelation 7:9-15 this multitude is identified by one of the elders who obviously was not part of the group he identified as having come out of “great tribulation” . There is nothing in this passage to show us this could be a raptured/ resurrected church.

    Quasar92 said:

    in Rev.19:7-8? Whu do you see the Church returning with Jesus,

    Because :

    1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus (have died in the Lord) will God bring with him.

    This is the great multitude of Revelation 19:6-8.

    Quasar92 said:

    from their marriage in heaven,


    We have been over this before, no passage describes the actual event in detail. You have only assumed it took place in heaven because Revelation 19:9 says “Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb”. That in no way describes the location of the event. We simply are not told details about it.


    Quasar92 said:

    when He returns to the earth in His Second Coming, as recorded in verse 14?

    Nothing in the text says the marriage supper takes place just before His return only that they are called.


    I have given detailed reasons why I disagree, I expect no detailed response. The readers can evaluate our positions.
     
  14. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    I agree 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 does tell us the precise timing of the catching up of the church.


    Verse3 shows that timing, it is after the falling away and the man of sin being revealed which lines up perfectly with the words of Jesus “Immediately after the tribulation of those days” Matthew 24:29




    The falling away cannot be the “departure” of the church because:


    the falling away must happen before the “gathering” verse 1, the “day of Christ” verse 2 and “that day” verse 3. These are one in the same day from the context.


    The falling away cannot be the “departure” of the church because:


    the only other time the word “apostasia” is used in the NT is in Acts 21:21 which supports the definition departure from the faith not departure from the planet.


    Paul also supports this with, 1 Timothy 4:1.


    The falling away cannot be the “departure” of the church because:


    The falling away cannot happen before the gathering which verse 3 says it does and also be that which when removed reveals the man of sin.


    The plain text says both the falling away and the man of sin will be revealed before the gathering.


    Paul and Jesus agree.


    I have given detailed reasons why I disagree, I expect no detailed response. The readers can evaluate our positions.

     
  15. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    You have not and cannot show from scripture “the day of the Lord” is a 7 year period.


    Just to show how this cannot be let’s insert “7 year tribulation” in passages that mention “the day of ther Lord”



    Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable (7 year tribulation) day of the Lord come:

    Jesus said this would be immediately after.

    1 Corin 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in

    (7 year tribulation ) the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    1 Corin 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the (7 year tribulation) day of the Lord Jesus.

    You might want to toss this one out!

    2 Corin 1: 13 For we write none other things unto you, that what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;

    14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in (7 year tribulation ) the day of the Lord Jesus.

    1 Thess. 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

    2 For yourselves know perfectly that (7 year tribulation ) the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day (7 year tribulation )should overtake you as a thief.

    How can a 7 year tribulation come as a thief?

    2 Peter 3: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    10 But (7 year tribulation ) the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    All of this does not happen in the 7 year period of tribulation!


    The “day of the Lord” is a day not a 7 year period! In the NT it is the day He returns.


    1 Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the (7 year tribulation ) day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the (7 year tribulation ) day of Jesus Christ:

    Philippians 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the (7 year tribulation ) day of Christ.

    Philippians 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the (7 year tribulation ) day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.


    Christ is the Lord, the day of Christ is not a different day.


    The idea of a 7 year long “day of the Lord” makes no sense and does not fit in all of these passages. There is no harmony or continuity when “7 year tribulation” is substituted for “day of the Lord”.





    I have given detailed reasons why I disagree, I expect no detailed response. The readers can evaluate our positions.
     
  16. Adstar

    Adstar Well-Known Member

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    The timing of the Rapture is clearly revealed as the Last Trumpet in the Bible.. One of the best passages revealing the Rapture is in 1 Corinthians 15 it reads:::

    1 Corinthians 15: KJV
    50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. {51} Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, {52} In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. {53} For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. {54} So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

    Note this is clearly talking about the rapture because Paul says we shall not all sleep.. Meaning that this transformation will happen to both living saints and dead saints.. In a twinkling of an eye.. Which is a description of the rapture.. It clearly states that this will happen at the last trump.. Paul was revealing a mystery here.. Now take a close read of the following passage from the Book of Revelation which reveals the last 7 trumpet blasts on the last one we read::

    Revelation 10: KJV

    7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

    Who was His servant who showed us a mystery? Why it was Paul..

    The second coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 also shows that the Rapture will happen on the day of the second coming of Jesus note the trumpet blast that will sound on that day..

    Matthew 24: KJV
    29 "¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: {30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. {31} And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

    So this trumpet Sounding in Matthew 24 will be the same as the 7th trumpet sounding in Revelation and the very same last trump sounding in 1 Corinthians 15..

    They all tie in together perfectly.. So therefore there is no pre-tribulation rapture.. It is a second coming of Jesus rapture,, on the Day of the LORD..
     
  17. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In Jesus first advent, His ministry was exclusively to Israel, as He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:25 and in 19:5-6. The Church did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit hd not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.

    Jesus activity with the Church is documented through the amplification of it by Paul, in my post #30. I suggest you review it for the Scriptural facts.


    Quasar92
     
  18. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    First of all, Paul's reference to the "last trumpet," in 1 Cor.15:51-52, is that of God, not by an angel, pertaining to the resurrection. The first of which will take place AFTER Jesus second coming to the earth, as seen in Rev.19:14 and 20:4.

    In the second lace, when Jesus returns in His second coming to the earth, it will be from the marriage in heaven between the Bride/Church and the Lamb/Jesus, when He does so WITH HIS CHURCH, recorded in verses 7-8 and 14.

    The Church will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER, at the trump of God, in verse 16, with all those who previously died in Christ, to meet the Lord in the sky, recorded in 1 Thess.4:17. From where He will take us to our Father in heaven, as recorded in In.14:2-3 and 28, BEFORE the tribulation begins, as documented in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. From which the translation history is found in my post #30.

    In the third place, from the bove Scriptures, the Church is in heaven for the marriage to the Lamb, followed by Jesus return in His second coming to the earth WITH them, according to Rev.19:7-8 and 14.

    The lst trump of God does not take place until at the first resurrection in Rev.20:4.

    I hope this helps.


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Who owns the trumpet the 7th angel is blowing in Revelation 11:15?

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  20. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    GNV Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

    WEB Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

    WEB Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

    The above are the translations I found on Bible Gateway that use departure or departing. None of them say or imply departing of the church. How many of the ones you referenced say or imply the departing of the church?

    Departing from the faith fits perfectly with, falling away, apostasy, rebellion, rebel against God, revolt, turning away from God, definite rejection of God, people rise up against God and stop believing God, which the other translations use. Not one says departure of the church.

    It is total fantasy to take only the word “departing” and transform that into meaning the pretrib rapture of the church. There is no reason from the text to make such a claim it is only the desire of some to make this passage say something other than what it says.


    This appears to be a classic case of “trying to make Scripture fit what you want it to say”.
     
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