Perhaps today! The imminent return of Jesus Christ for His Church!

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Maybe we should spend some quality time in the works of Irenaeus there is much more to discuss.

I think this is an excellent idea. I have done very little study of his works and I am mostly learning from other people's study of them. I wowuld love to study with you all. I will start the thread.

 

[jgr]

But both are clearly referred to in both translations.

Nope. Reread post 80.

 

[Quasar92]

Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

Departing/departure means departure from the truth i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

Wycliffe himself identified antichrist as the papacy, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He unquestionably therefore did not believe in a pretrib rapture.


And from Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified antichrist as the papacy, and thus did not believe in a pretrib rapture.
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and almost certainly of like persuasion.
Beza was almost certainly of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who defined the word as anything other than apostasy.

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3

Show me where you think there is a single intent by Paul, inferring the Church to be "falling away," anywhere in 1 Thess.4:13-18 or in 2 Thess.2:1-8; except for one miss-translated word, by translation scribes in 1611 A.d., for the text it is in. It clearly pertais to Paul's teachings about the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Not a falling away of it. Review the following:

APOSTASIA OR DEPARTURE? (II Thessalonians 2:1-8) The true meaning of the Greek word apostasia in II Thessalonians 2:3 cannot be overlooked or ignored any longer by the Christendom faith; we have a spiritual obligation to search the Scriptures as we study it in its context. One must understand that the translators of Scriptures were not the writers neither the ones who received the revelation through the words given them. In other words, they were only translators.

The translator cannot accurately interpret the true sentiments of an expression found in a language which is original only to that culture. Language is very much entangled in the culture of the people. An example of it is the idiom style found in every language, which is an accepted phrase construction, or expression contrary to the usual patterns of the language, or having a meaning different from the literal(Webster Dictionary).

The Word of God has come to us with interpretation and choices of certain words that are not always clear to our understanding, and sometimes not agreeing with the context as in II Thessalonians chapter two:

But relative to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to meet Him, we beg you, brethren, not to allow our minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some revelation of Spirit or by word or by letter from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has arrived and is here. Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, who is the son of doom. . . Do you not recollect that when I was still with you, I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining him; it is so that he may be manifested in his own time.

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work in the world,[but it is ] restrained only until he who restrains is taken out of the way, and then the lawless one will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by His appearing at His coming (vs. 1-3, 5- 8).

This chapter would be very assuring in the hope of our salvation from the tribulation if the word, apostasy was translated in agreement with the context of the chapter. The Greek word apostasy is a compound word, “apo” –from and “istemi”- stand. So we see here that the fundamental meaning is “away from or departure”. Let’s put these verses in perspective in the order of events which Paul mentioned using the word departure in verse three and we will see that the subsequent verses, 6-8 will agree, establishing the same order of events.

The departure Paul previously referred to was ‘our being gathered to Him’ (v.1) and our being ‘caught up’ with the Lord and the raptured dead in the clouds “( I Thessalonians 4:17) an insight from Scripture clearly opening our eyes of understanding by Dr. Gordon R. Lewis. Allan MacRae, president of Faith Theological Seminary in a letter to Schuyler English has said the following concerning this matter: I wonder if you have noticed the striking parallel between this verse and verses 7-8, a little further down.

According to your suggestion verse 3 mentions the departure of the church as coming first, and then tells of the revealing of the man of sin. In verses 7 and 8 we find the identical sequence. Verse 7 tells of the removal of the Church; verse 8 says: "And then shall that Wicked be revealed." Thus close examination of the passage shows an inner unity and coherence, if we take the word apostasia in its general sense of "departure," while a superficial examination would easily lead to an erroneous interpretation as "falling away" because of the proximity of the mention of the man of sin.

[11] Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

So we have here in verse three the departure of the church before the Lawlessness one is revealed; and in verses seven and eight Paul repeats the sequence, the removal of the church and the revealing of the wicked one. When the word apostasy is used in the meaning of “falling away” it breaks the connection in its meaning.

In the History of the translation of the word apostasia we learn from Dr. Thomas Ice the following: The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either "departure" or "departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means "departure."

In fact, Jerome's Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of a.d. 400 renders apostasia with the "word discessio, meaning 'departure.'"[6] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure"? Here is the summary of the ways apostasia means rapture in II Thessalonians 2:3 from Online Bible Study:

1. The parallel between verse

2. Words With Similar Definitions: methormizô, remove from one anchorage to another

3. Words With Similar Definitions: metex-anistamai, Pass., move from one place to another

4. Apostasia is translated as "Dissecto" in Latin, which has a meaning of a "spacial departure".

5. Apostasia is translated as "departure" in many Bibles. 6. Liddell and Scott Dictionary authors note Apostasia is translated as "spacial departure" in one case in the 6th century.

7. metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both mean "to fall away"

8. metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both mean "to depart"

9. metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both signify "change" as the rapture is a change.

10. metathesis, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both (in the word it's derrived from, aphistemi) can both mean "to remove".

11. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo (rapture in 1 Thess 4:17), can both mean "to take"

12. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo, can both mean "to seize"

13. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo, can both mean "to snatch away"

14. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, also carries the meaning "to marry, take a wife" which is a strong rapture

For the complete article:

http://www.lightfromtheword.org/upload/Apostasia or Departure.pdf



Quasar92

 

[jgr]

Show me where you think there is a single intent by Paul, inferring the Church to be "falling away," anywhere in 1 Thess.4:13-18 or in 2 Thess.2:1-8; except for one miss-translated word, by translation scribes in 1611 A.d., for the text it is in. It clearly pertais to Paul's teachings about the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Not a falling away of it. Review the following:

APOSTASIA OR DEPARTURE? (II Thessalonians 2:1-8) The true meaning of the Greek word apostasia in II Thessalonians 2:3 cannot be overlooked or ignored any longer by the Christendom faith; we have a spiritual obligation to search the Scriptures as we study it in its context. One must understand that the translators of Scriptures were not the writers neither the ones who received the revelation through the words given them. In other words, they were only translators.

The translator cannot accurately interpret the true sentiments of an expression found in a language which is original only to that culture. Language is very much entangled in the culture of the people. An example of it is the idiom style found in every language, which is an accepted phrase construction, or expression contrary to the usual patterns of the language, or having a meaning different from the literal(Webster Dictionary).

The Word of God has come to us with interpretation and choices of certain words that are not always clear to our understanding, and sometimes not agreeing with the context as in II Thessalonians chapter two:

But relative to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to meet Him, we beg you, brethren, not to allow our minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some revelation of Spirit or by word or by letter from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has arrived and is here. Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, who is the son of doom. . . Do you not recollect that when I was still with you, I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining him; it is so that he may be manifested in his own time.

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work in the world,[but it is ] restrained only until he who restrains is taken out of the way, and then the lawless one will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by His appearing at His coming (vs. 1-3, 5- 8).

This chapter would be very assuring in the hope of our salvation from the tribulation if the word, apostasy was translated in agreement with the context of the chapter. The Greek word apostasy is a compound word, “apo” –from and “istemi”- stand. So we see here that the fundamental meaning is “away from or departure”. Let’s put these verses in perspective in the order of events which Paul mentioned using the word departure in verse three and we will see that the subsequent verses, 6-8 will agree, establishing the same order of events.

The departure Paul previously referred to was ‘our being gathered to Him’ (v.1) and our being ‘caught up’ with the Lord and the raptured dead in the clouds “( I Thessalonians 4:17) an insight from Scripture clearly opening our eyes of understanding by Dr. Gordon R. Lewis. Allan MacRae, president of Faith Theological Seminary in a letter to Schuyler English has said the following concerning this matter: I wonder if you have noticed the striking parallel between this verse and verses 7-8, a little further down.

According to your suggestion verse 3 mentions the departure of the church as coming first, and then tells of the revealing of the man of sin. In verses 7 and 8 we find the identical sequence. Verse 7 tells of the removal of the Church; verse 8 says: "And then shall that Wicked be revealed." Thus close examination of the passage shows an inner unity and coherence, if we take the word apostasia in its general sense of "departure," while a superficial examination would easily lead to an erroneous interpretation as "falling away" because of the proximity of the mention of the man of sin.

[11] Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

So we have here in verse three the departure of the church before the Lawlessness one is revealed; and in verses seven and eight Paul repeats the sequence, the removal of the church and the revealing of the wicked one. When the word apostasy is used in the meaning of “falling away” it breaks the connection in its meaning.

In the History of the translation of the word apostasia we learn from Dr. Thomas Ice the following: The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either "departure" or "departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means "departure."

In fact, Jerome's Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of a.d. 400 renders apostasia with the "word discessio, meaning 'departure.'"[6] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure"? Here is the summary of the ways apostasia means rapture in II Thessalonians 2:3 from Online Bible Study:

1. The parallel between verse

2. Words With Similar Definitions: methormizô, remove from one anchorage to another

3. Words With Similar Definitions: metex-anistamai, Pass., move from one place to another

4. Apostasia is translated as "Dissecto" in Latin, which has a meaning of a "spacial departure".

5. Apostasia is translated as "departure" in many Bibles. 6. Liddell and Scott Dictionary authors note Apostasia is translated as "spacial departure" in one case in the 6th century.

7. metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both mean "to fall away"

8. metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both mean "to depart"

9. metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both signify "change" as the rapture is a change.

10. metathesis, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both (in the word it's derrived from, aphistemi) can both mean "to remove".

11. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo (rapture in 1 Thess 4:17), can both mean "to take"

12. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo, can both mean "to seize"

13. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo, can both mean "to snatch away"

14. laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, also carries the meaning "to marry, take a wife" which is a strong rapture

For the complete article:

http://www.lightfromtheword.org/upload/Apostasia or Departure.pdf



Quasar92

It's all in the information I've provided, and there's nothing further to add. The Greeks know what Greek is all about. I'll readily defer to them.

 

[Postvieww]

While we are on early church Fathers:

The First Apology of Justin

Chapter LII.-Certain Fulfilment of Prophecy.



Since, then, we prove that all things which have already happened had been predicted by the prophets before they came to pass, we must necessarily believe also that those things which are in like manner predicted, but are yet to come to pass, shall certainly happen. For as the things which have already taken place came to pass when foretold, and even though unknown, so shall the things that remain, even though they be unknown and disbelieved, yet come to pass. For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past, when He came as a dishonoured and suffering Man; but the second, when, according to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils. And that these things also have been foretold as yet to be, we will prove. By Ezekiel the prophet it was said: "Joint shall be joined to joint, and bone to bone, and flesh shall grow again; and every knee shall bow to the Lord, and every tongue shall confess Him."(109) And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: "Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched; "(110) and then shall they repent, when it profits them not. And what the people of the Jews shall say and do, when they see Him coming in glory, has been thus predicted by Zechariah the prophet: "I will command the four winds to gather the scattered children; I will command the north wind to bring them, and the south wind, that it keep not back. And then in Jerusalem there shall be great lamentation, not the lamentation of mouths or of lips, but the lamentation of the heart; and they shall rend not their garments, but their hearts. Tribe by tribe they shall mourn, and then they shall look on Him whom they have pierced; and they shall say, Why, O Lord, hast Thou made us to err from Thy way? The glory which our fathers blessed, has for us been turned into shame."(111)

Justin Martyr did not believe in a secret coming/ resurrection of the Lord before the coming written of by Zechariah.

 

[jgr]

Justin Martyr also spoke of apostasy in the Dialogue with Trypho:

"O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians..."

 

[Quasar92]

It's all in the information I've provided, and there's nothing further to add. The Greeks know what Greek is all about. I'll readily defer to them.

The views you have posted have been refuted, the last time in my post #91. Yes, the Greeks fully know their word "apostasia" has several meanings but you don't. Put briefly, DEPARTURE or APOSTASY, are used as determined by the THE TEXT they go into. Such as 2 Thess.2:3, the context is about the rapture of the Church, and calls for the use ofr DEPARTURE - NOT an APOSTASY.


Qusar92

As I asked you previously, show me one single shred of text in 1 Thess.4:13-18 and 2 Thess.2:1-8, that pertains to the Church falling away in any part of it, except for the one miss-translated word in verse 3.

 

[jgr]

The views you have posted have been refuted, the last time in my post #91. Yes, the Greeks fully know their word "apostasia" has several meanings but you don't. Put briefly, DEPARTURE or APOSTASY, are used as determined by the THE TEXT they go into. Such as 2 Thess.2:3, the context is about the rapture of the Church, and calls for the use ofr DEPARTURE - NOT an APOSTASY.


Qusar92

As I asked you previously, show me one single shred of text in 1 Thess.4:13-18 and 2 Thess.2:1-8, that pertains to the Church falling away in any part of it, except for the one miss-translated word in verse 3.

[Staff edit].

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3

 

[keras]

My conclusion: the rapture to heaven theory, is false teaching.
There is no plain scripture that says God will take a group of people to heaven.
What God does plan for His people, is what He always wanted: a faithful people in His holy Land, being His witnesses and a Light to the nations.

 

[BABerean2]

Jesus symbolic reference to the Church being called up to heaven, before the tribulation begins: Rev.4:1 "After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it."

It is amazing that pretrib proponents claim that Revelation 4:1 is an illusion to the removal of the Church, but they can then completely ignore the resurrection and taking up of the witnesses near the time of the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
Then they also ignore, "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18.

Rev 11:7　 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.　
Rev 11:8　 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.　
Rev 11:9　 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.　
Rev 11:10　 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.　
Rev 11:11　 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.　
Rev 11:12　 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.　



Rev 11:15　 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"　

Rev 11:18　 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."　



Based on Revelation 1:20 and Romans chapter 11, the witnesses described as "candlesticks" and the "olive trees" are a symbol of the Church.

.

 

[Quasar92]

[Staff edit].

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

It is amazing that pretrib proponents claim that Revelation 4:1 is an illusion to the removal of the Church, but they can then completely ignore the resurrection and taking up of the witnesses near the time of the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
Then they also ignore, "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18.

Rev 11:7　 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.　
Rev 11:8　 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.　
Rev 11:9　 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.　
Rev 11:10　 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.　
Rev 11:11　 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.　
Rev 11:12　 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.　



Rev 11:15　 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"　

Rev 11:18　 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."　



Based on Revelation 1:20 and Romans chapter 11, the witnesses described as "candlesticks" and the "olive trees" are a symbol of the Church.

.

Let me see the proof your claims "pre-trib proponents" ignore any part of your first two patagraphs. Ot that Rev.4:1 is an "illusion."

You may be assured, anyone who denies the teachings of Jesus or His apostles is a liar!

Or that the seventh trumpet blown by an angel is the last one blown in the Bible, when it is God, who will blow the last trumpet at the resurrection.

The two witnesses of Rev.11 God will send to earth from heaven, are Moses and Elijah, as the powes they posses at that time, are the very same as those they had when they were both living. In addition to the fact they are shown in Mt.17:3-4, at Jesus transfiguration, of when He, comes into His kingdom, they are both present. They have nothing whatever to do with the Church, who do not go through the tribulation, as documented in postw #04 and #105 above.


Quasar92

 

[Goatee]

As a partial preterist i believe most of Revelation has occured in the past, around 70AD

 

[Quasar92]

As a partial preterist i believe most of Revelation has occured in the past, around 70AD

The prophetic Scriptures is not history, but rather, events predicted to take place in the future.


Quasar92

 

[Goatee]

The prophetic Scriptures is not history, but rather, events predicted to take place in the future.


Quasar92

If u study it, you will find that most of it has already happened. It may have been prophetic when John wrote but it had then already happened! 70AD

 

[BABerean2]

They have nothing whatever to do with the Church, who do not go through the tribulation, as documented in postw #04 and #105 above.

Rev 12:11　 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.　

A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant Church, found in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

.

 

[Quasar92]

[Staff edit].

FYI, the historical translation history of 2 Thess.2:3 used thr definition of the Greek word. 'apostasia," as DEPARTURE, or TO DEPART, because the text it was written in is about a rapture of the Church, and has nothing whatever to do with an apostasy or a falling away of the Church. A review of 1 Thess.4:13-18 and 2 Thess.2:1-8 clearly supports that fact.

The word DEPARTURE was used in that passage for 16 centuries, before KJV scribes changed DEPARTURE to APOSTASY.

Of course you will find all of the present day translations repeating the miss-translation of the Greek word "apostasia," since the 17th century, for the following 4 centuries because of that!

The following historical translation facts are repeated for your edification, once again. Until you accept the historical record and stop trying to alter the meaning of the Scriptures, this will be my last interfacing with you on this issue!

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given


Quasar92

 

[SeventyOne]

I really don't understand why there's such an a debate over the word apostasía.

If it turns out the meaning is the rapture, good. If it turns out it means a falling away from the faith, also good, because it doesn't actually negate the rapture event. One can't actually take away from that 'no rapture' without adding assumptions to the text as they would be separate events.

 

[Postvieww]

What did Irenaeus say about “apostasy” as used in 2 Thessalonians

Irenaeus, Against Heresies Book V Chapter25 section1

1 And not only by the particulars already mentioned, but also by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God; and that, although a mere slave, he wishes himself to be proclaimed as a king. For he (Antichrist) being endued with all the power of the devil, shall come, not as a righteous king, nor as a legitimate king, [i.e., one] in subjection to God, but an impious, unjust, and lawless one; as an apostate, iniquitous and murderous; as a robber, concentrating in himself [all] satanic apostasy, and setting aside idols to persuade [men] that he himself is God, raising up himself as the only idol, having in himself the multifarious errors of the other idols. This he does, in order that they who do [now] worship the devil by means of many abominations, may serve himself by this one idol, of whom the apostle thus speaks in the second Epistle to the Thessalonians: "Unless there shall come a failing away first, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God." The apostle therefore clearly points out his apostasy, and that he is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped-that is, above every idol-for these are indeed so called by men, but are not [really] gods; and that he will endeavour in a tyrannical manner to set himself forth as God.

2. Moreover, he (the apostle) has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways, that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God. Now I have shown in the third book, that no one is termed God by the apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord, by whose directions the temple which is at Jerusalem was constructed for those purposes which I have already mentioned; in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ, as the Lord also declares: "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be."

3. Daniel too, looking forward to the end of the last kingdom, i.e., the ten last kings, amongst whom the kingdom of those men shall be partitioned, and upon whom the son of perdition shall come, declares that ten horns shall spring from the beast, and that another little horn shall arise in the midst of them, and that three of the former shall be rooted up before his face. He says: "And, behold, eyes were in [392-393] this horn as the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things, and his look was more stout than his fellows. I was looking, and this horn made war against the saints, and prevailed against them, until the Ancient of days came and gave judgment to the saints of the most high God, and the time came, and the saints obtained the kingdom." Then, further on, in the interpretation of the vision, there was said to him: "The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall excel all other kingdoms, and devour the whole earth, and tread it down, and cut it in pieces. And its ten horns are ten kings which shall arise; and after them shall arise another, who shall surpass in evil deeds all that were before him, and shall overthrow three kings; and he shall speak words against the most high God, and wear out the saints of the most high God, and shall purpose to change times and laws; and [everything] shall be given into his hand until a time of times and a half time," that is, for three years and six months, during which time, when he comes, he shall reign over the earth. Of whom also the Apostle Paul again, speaking in the second [Epistle] to the Thessalonians, and at the same time proclaiming the cause of his advent, thus says: "And then shall the wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the spirit of His mouth, and destroy by the presence of His coming; whose coming [i.e., the wicked one's] is after the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and portents of lies, and with all deceivableness of wickedness for those who perish; because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And therefore God will send them the working of error, that they may believe a lie; that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but gave consent to iniquity,"

4. The Lord also spoke as follows to those who did not believe in Him: "I have come in my Father's name, and ye have not received Me: when another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive," calling Antichrist "the other," because he is alienated from the Lord. This is also the unjust judge, whom the Lord mentioned as one "who feared not God, neither regarded man," to whom the widow fled in her forgetfulness of God,-that is, the earthly Jerusalem,-to be avenged of her adversary. Which also he shall do in the time of his kingdom: he shall remove his kingdom into that [city], and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ. To this purpose Daniel says again: "And he shall desolate the holy place; and sin has been given for a sacrifice, and righteousness been cast away in the earth, and he has been active (fecit), and gone on prosperously." And the angel Gabriel, when explaining his vision, states with regard to this person: "And towards the end of their kingdom a king of a most fierce countenance shall arise, one understanding [dark] questions, and exceedingly powerful, full of wonders; and he shall corrupt, direct, influence (faciet), and put strong men down, the holy people likewise; and his yoke shall be directed as a wreath [round their neck]; deceit shall be in his hand, and he shall be lifted up in his heart: he shall also ruin many by deceit, and lead many to perdition, bruising them in his hand like eggs." And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: "And in the midst of the week," he says, "the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete." Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.

5. From all these passages are revealed to us, not merely the particulars of the apostasy, and [the doings] of him who concentrates in himself every satanic error, but also, that there is one and the same God the Father, who was declared by the prophets, but made manifest by Christ. For if what Daniel prophesied concerning the end has been confirmed by the Lord, when He said, "When ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (and the angel Gabriel gave the interpretation of the visions to Daniel, and he is the archangel of the Creator (Demiurgi), who also proclaimed to Mary the visible coining and the incarnation of Christ), then one and the same God is most manifestly pointed out, who sent the prophets, and made promise of the Son, and called us into His knowledge.



Chapter 28 Section 2

2. And for this reason the apostle says: "Because they received not the love of God, that they might be saved, therefore God shall also send them the operation of error, that they may believe a lie, that they all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but consented to unrighteousness." For when he (Antichrist) is come, and of his own accord concentrates in his own person the apostasy, and accomplishes whatever he shall do according to his own will and choice, sitting also in the temple of God, so that his dupes may adore him as the Christ; wherefore also shall he deservedly "be cast into the lake of fire: " [this will happen according to divine appointment], God by His prescience foreseeing all this, and at the proper time sending such a man, "that they may believe a lie, that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but consented to unrighteousness;" whose coming John has thus described in the Apocalypse: "And the beast which I had seen was like unto a leopard, and his feet as of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion; and the dragon conferred his own power upon him, and his throne, and great might. And one of his heads was as it were slain unto death; and his deadly wound was healed, and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon because he gave power to the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto this beast, and who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things, and blasphemy and power was given to him during forty and two months. And he opened his mouth for blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. And power was given him over every tribe, and people, and tongue, and nation. And all who dwell upon the earth worshipped him, [every one] whose name was not written in the book of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any one have ears, let him hear. If any one shall lead into captivity, he shall go into captivity. If any shall slay with the sword, he must be slain with the sword. Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints." After this he likewise describes his armour-bearer, whom he also terms a false prophet: "He spake as a dragon, and exercised all the power of the first beast in his sight, and caused the earth, and those that dwell therein, to adore the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he shall perform great wonders, so that he can even cause fire to descend from heaven upon the earth in the sight of men, and he shall lead the inhabitants of the earth astray." Let no one imagine that he performs these wonders by divine power, but [402-403] by the working of magic. And we must not be surprised if, since the demons and apostate spirits are at his service, he through their means performs wonders, by which he leads the inhabitants of the earth astray. John says further: "And he shall order an image of the beast to be made, and he shall give breath to the image, so that the image shall speak; and he shall cause those to be slain who will not adore it." He says also: "And he will cause a mark [to be put] in the forehead and in the fight hand, that no one may be able to buy or sell, unless he who has the mark of the name of the beast or the number of his name; and the number is six hundred and sixty-six," that is, six times a hundred, six times ten, and six units. [He gives this] as a summing up of the whole of that apostasy which has taken place during six thousand years.



It is quite clear that Irenaeus did not hold to the teachings of Dr. Thomas Ice on the meaning of the word “apostasy”.

I makes far more sense to consider the understanding of someone who was one generation removed from the men who wrote our scriptures than to take seriously the teachings of Mr. Ice who has an agenda.

 

[Postvieww]

If it turns out the meaning is the rapture, good. If it turns out it means a falling away from the faith, also good, because it doesn't actually negate the rapture event.

Correct it does not negate a rapture event, but the whole debate of this word has to do with the timing of that event. The departure to heaven definition is required to negate the time laid out in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. If the meaning is “falling away” from the faith, which I believe the evidence clearly shows is the correct interpretation, the catching up is after the man of sin is revealed.