Perfect Rectitude

[Saint Steven]

Could he have been envisaging the victory over the forces of darkness, and the putting the whole world at his feet, so that God could fulfil His plan to be all in all?

Or was he looking forward to burning them alive!

I think consummation should be MORE joyful than that. Which would you choose? - lol

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I think consummation should be MORE joyful than that. Which would you choose? - lol

I know a commercial guy who's always using the phrase 'consummate the deal', by which I understand him to mean 'sign seal and deliver' it, not mangle and destroy it.

 

[Saint Steven]

I know a commercial guy who's always using the phrase 'consummate the deal', by which I understand him to mean 'sign seal and deliver' it, not mangle and destroy it.

Sounds like a bad prom date. - lol

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Sounds like a bad prom date. - lol

This is the word.

Strong's Greek: 4930. συντέλεια (sunteleia) -- a joint payment (for public service), joint action, spec. completion

Interesting note, para 3:
[The KJV is misleading by rendering 4930 (syntéleia) as "the end of the world" (i.e. when it occurs with aiōn, "age/epoch"). This expression actually means "at the "consummation of the age," i.e. when it reaches its intended climax (consummated conclusion).]

 

[Saint Steven]

This is the word.

Strong's Greek: 4930. συντέλεια (sunteleia) -- a joint payment (for public service), joint action, spec. completion

Interesting note, para 3:
[The KJV is misleading by rendering 4930 (syntéleia) as "the end of the world" (i.e. when it occurs with aiōn, "age/epoch"). This expression actually means "at the "consummation of the age," i.e. when it reaches its intended climax (consummated conclusion).]

Oh my. I guess I wasn't far off with my analogy. - lol
(see bold in your quote) - Thanks, made my day. =o)

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Oh my. I guess I wasn't far off with my analogy. - lol
(see bold in your quote) - Thanks, made my day. =o)

That's the thing with restorationism, the Bible starts making sense! We don't need to try to piece it together like some kind of puzzle and ignore the many bits that don't seem to fit. We just graft in to the vine and drink of the refreshing water lol.

 

[Saint Steven]

That's the thing with restorationism, the Bible starts making sense! We don't need to try to piece it together like some kind of puzzle and ignore the many bits that don't seem to fit. We just graft in to the vine and drink of the refreshing water lol.

Right.
I was just thinking this morning that God loves a good story. He has engineered so many. The crossing of the Red Sea, the Manna from heaven, the walls of Jericho, Jonah and the great fish, the burning bush, the giving of the law to Moses, John the Baptist, leading up to the whole life of Christ, and on and on it goes.

It makes no sense that the consummate story maker would have such a dud for his own story. I'm imagining a meeting of all the gods from all the universes (fictional, of course) telling their stories. When it was God's turn they all looked shocked at the ending in hell. And one of the gods says, "And they're still burning? We need to do something to stop it."

 

[Saint Steven]

"I AM THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE END." Rev. xxi. 5; (i. 8; xxii. 13).

A thoughtful reader will note that this claims for God a position, which negatives a final dualism: as He was the Source, so He is the Goal of all things. God is the TERMINUS of Creation; the Stream shall return to its Source. The unconscious dualism of current theology is a barrier to any true apprehension of the thought of the
Apostle, which seems to be the same as that S. PAUL expresses in Rom. xi. 36.

"AND THE LEAVES OF THE TREE WERE FOR THE HEALING OF THE NATIONS. AND THERE SHALL BE NO MORE CURSE" Rev. xxii. 2-3.

Here is a striking hint - as to a future restoration; a hint that the nations are one day, in a future age, to be healed, for all this is subsequent to the passing away of the present earth, heaven (ch. xxi. r). And as a result of this healing, there shall be no more curse - no pain - no tears - but all things made new.

"THE TIMES OF RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS." Acts iii. 21.

All things are to be restored; (apokatastasis, i.e., complete restoration), and this is said to be the meaning of the work of Christ, the meaning of the promise to ABRAHAM, of the Jewish covenant (v. 25). 'this God has spoken by all "the prophets since the world began," and this is what the larger hope teaches.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter six --- bold emphasis mine

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Right.
I was just thinking this morning that God loves a good story. He has engineered so many. The crossing of the Red Sea, the Manna from heaven, the walls of Jericho, Jonah and the great fish, the burning bush, the giving of the law to Moses, John the Baptist, leading up to the whole life of Christ, and on and on it goes.

It makes no sense that the consummate story maker would have such a dud for his own story. I'm imagining a meeting of all the gods from all the universes (fictional, of course) telling there stories. When it was God's turn they all looked shocked at the ending in hell. And one of the gods says, "And they're still burning? We need to do something to stop it."

That's it, the greatest story ever told can't end in a train wreck. It's a consummation, not a conflagration.

A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But you shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes.” Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations. (Ps 82)

 

[Saint Steven]

That's it, the greatest story ever told can't end in a train wreck. It's a consummation, not a conflagration.

A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But you shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes.” Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations. (Ps 82)

Oh my. That scripture is absolutely pregnant with Restorationism. See bold emphasis below.

A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But you shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes.” Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations. (Ps 82)

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Oh my. That scripture is absolutely pregnant with Restorationism. See bold emphasis below.

A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But you shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes.” Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations. (Ps 82)

Yes, to be fair I can see in this Psalm a case for restoration of the afflicted and annihilation of the wicked, but the last line is universalist. So it might seem 'unresolved' and enigmatic to a reader without more context. And so it should be, as the great divine plan of UR is still somewhat concealed at this stage in the OT, yet to be fully revealed in Christ and finally consummated in the eschaton.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, to be fair I can see in this Psalm a case for restoration of the afflicted and annihilation of the wicked, but the last line is universalist. So it might seem 'unresolved' and enigmatic to a reader without more context. And so it should be, as the great divine plan of UR is still somewhat concealed at this stage in the OT, yet to be fully revealed in Christ and finally consummated in the eschaton.

As I often say, there is "biblical proof" for all three views of the final judgment.
- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Restorationism
Therefore, those of the other two views should recognize us as having a valid view. One of three optional biblically supported views. There is no excuse for division over this issue.

 

[Saint Steven]

"AND HAVE HOPE THAT THERE SHALL BE A RESURRECTION * * BOTH OF THE JUST AND THE UNJUST." Acts xxiv. 15.

Note these words. Could S. PAUL have hoped for a resurrection of the unjust if that meant hopeless punishment to them? "Who is so great a fool," asks a famous Father, "as to think so great a boon as the Resurrection can be, to those that rise, an occasion of endless torment ?"

I may take this opportunity of asking attention to the fact that there runs through Scripture a definite law of expansion. First one family is chosen, then this family expands into a nation, then the nation is declared to be the source of blessing to all nations. Side by side with this numerical expansion there is visible a spiritual expansion. The prescribed sacrifices, the elaborate ritual, are pushed aside in favor of a spiritual creed, even in the Old Testament. Passing to the New Testament the law is the same, but more active still. By what, to a hasty judgment seems strange, Christ devotes half His time to the bodies of men, but we see the meaning to be that He cares for the whole man, and this care expands into the noble promise of the Resurrection. Next comes a most significant expansion. All barriers fall before the march of Redemption. The dead, the unrepentant dead, are evangelized; the Cross penetrates Hades, 1 Pet. iii. 18-20; iv. 6. Nor is this all there are hints plain enough of a greater expansion still. "All things in heaven," "the Principalities and Powers," - Eph. i. 10; iii. 10, &c.; Col. i. 15-20, are drawn within the range of the Atonement. Can any Hope be broader than that here directly suggested by the Bible itself? The question seems rather this:-Are our broadest hopes broad enough? Shall there be a corner or nook or abyss, in all the universe of God, finally unlighted by the Cross? Shall there be a sin, or sorrow, or pain unhealed? Is the very Universe, is Creation in all its extent, a field wide enough for the Son of God?

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter eight --- bold emphasis mine

 

[Shrewd Manager]

As I often say, there is "biblical proof" for all three views of the final judgment.
- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Restorationism
Therefore, those of the other two views should recognize us as having a valid view. One of three optional biblically supported views. There is no excuse for division over this issue.

You're very ecumenical Steve, I'm a little more dogmatic. I say there might be apparent 'biblical proof' for the other two, but that proof is demolished by the Christological case against it. Primarily, they deny the total victory of Christ (ie salvation of mankind), and the good news of the gospel (for all mankind) and therefore sin in (partial) unbelief.

So a case for damnationism is a case against Christ.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Is the very Universe, is Creation in all its extent, a field wide enough for the Son of God?

God's earth as per the Bible (and science if you care to look into it!)

 

[Saint Steven]

You're very ecumenical Steve, I'm a little more dogmatic. I say there might be apparent 'biblical proof' for the other two, but that proof is demolished by the Christological case against it. Primarily, they deny the total victory of Christ (ie salvation of mankind), and the good news of the gospel (for all mankind) and therefore sin in (partial) unbelief.

So a case for damnationism is a case against Christ.

Well... is Restorationism dogmatic, or ecumenical? - lol

Right. I'm not saying I AGREE with all three views. I am saying there ARE three views.
I'm not going to claim someone DOESN'T HAVE a view simply because I don't AGREE with it. It should be CLEAR that they have a view whether I AGREE with it or NOT. (sorry for all the CAPS - I'm not angry, just trying to clarify - I love you - no worries)

Furthermore, claiming the other sides DON'T have biblical support, when they clearly DO, does not facilitate restoration, it facilitates a declaration of war. On the other hand diplomacy leads to restoration without conflict. (at least in theory)

Therefore, recognizing that the three views are indeed "biblical", opens a door to fruitful dialog. Whereas, claiming there are NOT three biblical views, closes a door to fruitful dialog. So... guns back in holsters... let's talk. - lol

In your post that I quoted, you had confirmed all three views in the passage. How can you come back now and claim they are not biblical? Am I missing something here?

Saint Steven said: ↑
As I often say, there is "biblical proof" for all three views of the final judgment.
- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Restorationism
Therefore, those of the other two views should recognize us as having a valid view. One of three optional biblically supported views. There is no excuse for division over this issue.

 

[Saint Steven]

2 Corinthians 5:17-20
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Well... is Restorationism dogmatic, or ecumenical? - lol

Haha, could be both.

Right. I'm not saying I AGREE with all three views. I am saying there ARE three views.
I'm not going to claim someone DOESN'T HAVE a view simply because I don't AGREE with it. It should be CLEAR that they have a view whether I AGREE with it or NOT. (sorry for all the CAPS - I'm not angry, just trying to clarify - I love you - no worries)

Furthermore, claiming the other sides DON'T have biblical support, when they clearly DO, does not facilitate restoration, it facilitates a declaration of war. On the other hand diplomacy leads to restoration without conflict. (at least in theory)

I agree they have apparent scriptural support, but they are against the HS, which kind of pulls the rug out from the claim they have scriptural support IMHO.

Jesus was prepared to 'go ape' at denials of the spirit, anti-kingdom religiosity...so why can't I?

In your post that I quoted, you had confirmed all three views in the passage. How can you come back now and claim they are not biblical? Am I missing something here?

I was maybe unclear. The point is that once a brother puts their 13 proof texts of damnationism together, shapes them into a spear and aims it at the heart of the restorationist, he should STOP and THINK. The question needs to be asked: does this conform with Jesus, his mission, the gospel and what I know of God, specifically that He is love and light, and the father of all?

The answer must be a resounding 'NO', and therefore in good conscience he realises that he's got a castle in the sky there, and pronouncing shibboleth the wrong way. He has used Christ as a touchstone of his damnationist theology and ought to have found it did not pass muster.

 

[Saint Steven]

I agree they have apparent scriptural support...

Thank you. That's all I ask.

I came to UR by being helped across a bridge. I was not taken as a prisoner of war.

 

[Saint Steven]

Jesus was prepared to 'go ape' at denials of the spirit, anti-kingdom religiosity...so why can't I?

If God tells you to do that, you have my complete blessing. However if that is a fleshly directed retaliatory act, then there needs to be some introspection.

Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.