Parable of The Boiled Frog ...

[ToBeBlessed]

How about some actual facts instead of heresay. A little bit harder right? Facts.

 

[mourningdove~]

Since I am not getting an answer from the others, perhaps you could give me a clear answer. In light of what we have just read, if a man falls into adultery, does not repent, is chastened by the Spirit and refuses to turn back, and then dies, will he go to heaven?

I believe what you are describing, Gideon, is what happens to the spiritually deceived person that becomes an apostate.

The apostate says, “Yes, I’m a Christian,” but they live contrary to the teachings of the Bible.

Apostasy is a choice. No one accidentally becomes an apostate. Each day we have a choice to follow Jesus or follow sinful desires. Those who choose the path of apostasy know exactly what they’re doing - living in open rebellion.

Apostates often become deceivers. They want others to believe it's okay to sin, in an attempt to soothe their own conscience.

 

[jiminpa]

Since no one has offered any proof that the people who say we are saved by grace advocate sin, we can all agree that we don't.

I would appreciate it in the future if you would not falsely accuse us of this as we are called to truth (those who are in Christ are).

Um, no one is saying that saving grace leads to sin. Some of us are saying that what is often falsely called grace is not really grace but a lack of repentance. I have attempted to explain that. The above post challenges us to dispute a false argument, but since the argument is false there is no dispute to be made.

 

[ForJesusChrist]

Really, really good thread! Keep it up!

God Bless

 

[Gregory Thompson]

That makes sense.

How about some actual facts instead of heresay. A little bit harder right? Facts.

You have yet to establish yourself as more than a critic . please present facts to establish your own credibility .

.. otherwise, i'd like to return to a general conversation where we share what scripture references come back to memory without need of embedded citations .

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Um, no one is saying that saving grace leads to sin. Some of us are saying that what is often falsely called grace is not really grace but a lack of repentance. I have attempted to explain that. The above post challenges us to dispute a false argument, but since the argument is false there is no dispute to be made.

.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Individuals have been saying for months that people that believe the gospel of grace advocate sin.

To stop these falsehoods, I am asking those who speak such lies to prove that point. Go back into the posts, find the post that says what you accuse brothers and sisters of and show me where it is. You all know what I'm talking about. You attribute specific theology to specific people.

People are full of accusations when the lights are out. That's the devil's game, not a Christians. At least it shouldn't be that way. Who's yo daddy people?

 

[gideons300]

I believe what you are describing, Gideon, is what happens to the spiritually deceived person that becomes an apostate.

The apostate says, “Yes, I’m a Christian,” but they live contrary to the teachings of the Bible.

Apostasy is a choice. No one accidentally becomes an apostate. Each day we have a choice to follow Jesus or follow sinful desires. Those who choose the path of apostasy know exactly what they’re doing - living in open rebellion.

Apostates often become deceivers. They want others to believe it's okay to sin, in an attempt to soothe their own conscience.

This has been an eye opening thread, not so much for what has been said, but by what has been avoided being said. None of those who posts here and who line up with a grace that now holds us of no account for any sin we commit, past, present and future, with repentance not required.... none will give a straight answer to straight questions.

Why do the responses seem so defensive, so evasive, so deflective and confusing? The purpose is to discuss doctrine here, the doctrine of grace and what it exactly means for us believers. Questions arise, and yet none answer. What is returned are innuendos, personal attacks on individual members, sarcasm and wit (with a wink, a high five and a bite) that reveals the spirit of a man in operation.

But here is the bottom line. If the Spirit of God is within us, and we are walking in it, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. If we begin to walk in error and sin, the Spirit chastens us. ALL get it at various times, myself included. Sometimes it is gentle, but if we refuse to listen, God lets our own sins reprove us for it seems we listen to that correction better, LOL. If we have the mind of Christ, we WILL want what God wants, amen? He wants us holy and pure, and able to walk as victors in this life to glorify his Son. Is this what we want? I hope so.

If we see our hearts drifting into sin and away from the truth with little or no real sorrow for it or desire to be freed from it and there is no chastening forthcoming, either we are having our hearts hardened to the point we cannot hear Him whisper to us to come back to Him OR we are not children of God at all. God chastens all of His true children, and we are told that those without chatening are illegitimate sons.

If we dally with sin, there is great danger for us. Yes, grace provides forgiveness if we repent and turn, but if we do not, continuing on our own path because "grace allows it", the deception begins and our hearts get harder and harder. We will still know all the verses and weave a covering of a false grace that says Jesus has delivered us, so we can do it, for it is of no consequence. We will assure ourselves all is well, but get no assurance from our Father. Unless a major breaking comes, this walk away from God and deeper into self rule will not end well.

This post is close to ground zero of what is going on in the church. Thank you for this. It is no game. Eternity is a long time to wish we did things differently. Satan is a master at deception and the only way at times to know the difference is the spirit of a man and the fruit of his life, because when it is all said and done, we will know them not by their doctrine but by their fruits, amen?

May we all long to be fruitful vines with hungry hearts. That is the first step back, and I pray that for all.

Many blessings, dear sister

Gideon

 

[gideons300]

Individuals have been saying for months that people that believe the gospel of grace advocate sin.

To stop these falsehoods, I am asking those who speak such lies to prove that point. Go back into the posts, find the post that says what you accuse brothers and sisters of and show me where it is. You all know what I'm talking about. You attribute specific theology to specific people.

People are full of accusations when the lights are out. That's the devil's game, not a Christians. At least it shouldn't be that way. Who's yo daddy people?

Sister, I am saying no such thing. I am saying that even if those who are promoting this new take on grace are themselves walking with God, if our foundation possesses error, eventually satan will take advantage of it and lead many astray.

I have tried to get a straight answer so there will be no confusion. One question. Perhaps you can answer it for me, at least from your take of grace.
If a man who is a Christian falls into sin, does not listen to the chastenings of the lord, continues along this path unrepentant, and remains here till he dies, does grace cover that?

Please note: I am not accusing any of specifically promoting this example, but this case exists today for a myriad of believers. It is not rare, either, I suspect. What do you believe?

Eventually, here is the root of what they are trying to protect. It is the doctrine of once saved, always saved. This hypothetical question is troublesome to them, for it they say YES, the man will inherit the kingdom regardless, the case goes against clear warnings to us. Sin cannot continue in our hearts without being dealt with by the Father. There are no exceptions, for He loves us.

However, if they say NO, the man will be lost, then:

a) Men can lose their salvation and thus, there are certain things we must do in cooperation with God...not works that save us, not running back under the law, but allowing God to work as the potter to mold and change us, yielding to His masterful hand to change and shape us into glorious vessels. This one definitely is a problem for OSAS is a backbone of their gospel and this one is a biggie.

OR

b) the man was unsaved to begin with.

Now, this latter one is problematic as well, because the man will have THOUGHT he was a true Christian. He will still go to church, pray, read his Bible, and believe that grace protects him because he is weak. No, he is deceived. Can a man believe totally in Jesus and yet miss heaven? Yes, he can. The pivot point is if his heart is seeking to please Jesus, not himself, longing to be like Him. We must believe ON Him.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Messy]

Sister, I am saying no such thing. I am saying that even if those who are promoting this new take on grace are themselves walking with God, if our foundation possesses error, eventually satan will take advantage of it and lead many astray.

I have tried to get a straight answer so there will be no confusion. One question. Perhaps you can answer it for me, at least from your take of grace.
If a man who is a Christian falls into sin, does not listen to the chastenings of the lord, continues along this path unrepentant, and remains here till he dies, does grace cover that?

Please note: I am not accusing any of specifically promoting this example, but this case exists today for a myriad of believers. It is not rare, either, I suspect. What do you believe?

Eventually, here is the root of what they are trying to protect. It is the doctrine of once saved, always saved. This hypothetical question is troublesome to them, for it they say YES, the man will inherit the kingdom regardless, the case goes against clear warnings to us. Sin cannot continue in our hearts without being dealt with by the Father. There are no exceptions, for He loves us.

However, if they say NO, the man will be lost, then:

a) Men can lose their salvation and thus, there are certain things we must do in cooperation with God...not works that save us, not running back under the law, but allowing God to work as the potter to mold and change us, yielding to His masterful hand to change and shape us into glorious vessels. This one definitely is a problem for OSAS is a backbone of their gospel and this one is a biggie.

OR

b) the man was unsaved to begin with.

Now, this latter one is problematic as well, because the man will have THOUGHT he was a true Christian. He will still go to church, pray, read his Bible, and believe that grace protects him because he is weak. No, he is deceived. Can a man believe totally in Jesus and yet miss heaven? Yes, he can. The pivot point is if his heart is seeking to please Jesus, not himself, longing to be like Him. We must believe ON Him.

Blessings,

Gideon

I was always under condemnation and I said the sinner's prayer every week, not that I was a big sinner. In my first church there were people who just went on a holiday and had a bunch of girls there. So those were the ones the pastor was talking to, repent and I was the one who had to say the sinner's prayer every week, because I got angry or some other stupid sin and then I was not saved anymore. I was soooooo glad with the OSAS teaching. It really helped me get a lot more stable, but it isn't true. You can fall back, I never thought I could, but it is possible, it did happen. We need balance in the teaching. I don't think the grace message is dangerous for people who are not apostates but just they need prayer for things, personal problems. It is dangerous for apostates and I saw them preaching OSAS and just having 5 women who they have sex with 'cause God called them to be a christian gigolo and all you need is love, love your neighbour by having sex. They do exist, but please, Frogster and the rest mean something else. They say someone like that isn't even a christian, which is true.

 

[turned around]

Hi Gideon,
To answer your question from post #39. I didn't write the bible, nor am I personally as forgiving at this time in my life as God. That said according to romans 4:8, the example you used that person would go to the same heaven you would. The" will not " in verse 8 is a double negative, implying future tense. If you got a problem with how God forgives take it up with him. I know it goes against the natural inclinations. But I didn't write it. Just a side note: one group who should think long, and is the judaizers. Paul spoke the double curse on them. I saying such because the thread is about deception.

Grace to you.

 

[like eagleswings]

grace is undeserved favour, at what point will a christian ever get to the point of deserving
it. it will always be at the cross that we know we have been given undeserved grace, knowing that, we dont go out of our way to sin, becuase it was sin that messed it all up in the first place,but God gives us grace for us to grow in his likeness.

every ones walk is at different maturity.

2 Corinthians 12:9
English Standard Version (ESV)
9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

 

[turned around]

Hi Lismore,
I find that exceedingly graceful. Expelling because of bad behavior in that context was grace. Corrupt communication destroys good manners. IMO expelling until repentance (change of mind). Works of the flesh can spread like wildfires, it was grace in action (teaching, Titus 2).

Grace to you.

 

[mourningdove~]

This has been an eye opening thread, not so much for what has been said, but by what has been avoided being said.

It has been an eye-opening discussion for myself also, but in a different way.

This thread was not started with the intention of discussing grace. The subject of this thread was, and remains, deception.

If anyone wants to discuss grace, there are already MANY other threads on the subject of grace in this forum in which persons can engage in such a discussion.

There are also MANY off-topic posts on grace repeatedly being placed in threads in this forum where persons have been allowed to engage and distract with their versions of the grace message.

So, we are not lacking in this forum for a place to discuss grace.

No. The purpose of this thread has been, and is, to look more closely at the subject of deception.

The Parable of The Boiling Frog was presented to show how easy it can be to become deceived and trapped in deception.

What has surprised me most, Gideon, is the apparent lack of interest in the actual subject of deception. I find it concerning, that so few appear interested in actually discussing it.

Yet we, as Christians on this earth, are in a battle. The battle is spiritual. One of the tools used by the enemy of our souls to hope to lead us astray and unproductive for the Lord is deception.

I personally do not believe that we can be saved and sin as much as we want and be headed for heaven, but that is just one deceptive belief amongst many in the days we are living and not the subject of this thread.

There are many ways the enemy is continually working to deceive the Christian. The cheap grace or hypergrace message is only one.

Deception is a battle that occurs in the mind. Deception can happen quickly, but often deception happens very slowly, gradually ... liken to the slow, gradual boiling of the frog in the parable.

The victims of deception are lead astray, away from the faith, sometimes even into suicide.

Deception can be costly to the one deceived. It can be painful, even deadly. I would think most would not want to find themselves one day trapped in it.

To avoid being deceived, we need to guard our hearts.
We guard our hearts by guarding our mind, the entryway for deception.

We guard our mind by staying alert and paying attention to the things we are allowing into our minds.
We guard our mind by taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. (2 Cor. 10:5)
We guard our mind by not allowing the enemy to 'distract' us from thinking on the things that are of eternal value to us.

I believe we will want to understand and be aware of this very effective tool of the enemy ... deception ... if we hope to be victorious in this battle and enjoy the abundant life here on earth that we have been given in Jesus Christ.

 

[turned around]

Hi,
In one of the posts deceitfulness of sin scripture was mentioned (Hebrews 3). The sin in that context I believe is unbelief. That deceptive sin continually goes under the radar. Exposing that sin pulls back the curtain on deception.

Grace to you.

 

[turned around]

Hi,
Its funny, but its not, Peter mentioned satan as a roaring lion(singular). Paul said satan comes as a angel of light. He coming with his own ministers. He describes how they operate, 2 Corinthians 11, Colossians 2, Galatians, almost the whole book, and 1 Timothy 3-4. Looks like some decisive intentionally, others ignorantly. Same end result apostacy. The bible shows many examples of apostasy. How does it happen? Teachers infiltrate going against what God has stated is true for that time period.

Grace to you.

 

[jiminpa]

It has been an eye-opening discussion for myself also, but in a different way.

This thread was not started with the intention of discussing grace. The subject of this thread was, and remains, deception.

If anyone wants to discuss grace, there are already MANY other threads on the subject of grace in this forum in which persons can engage in such a discussion.

There are also MANY off-topic posts on grace repeatedly being placed in threads in this forum where persons have been allowed to engage and distract with their versions of the grace message.

So, we are not lacking in this forum for a place to discuss grace.

No. The purpose of this thread has been, and is, to look more closely at the subject of deception.

The Parable of The Boiling Frog was presented to show how easy it can be to become deceived and trapped in deception.

What has surprised me most, Gideon, is the apparent lack of interest in the actual subject of deception. I find it concerning, that so few appear interested in actually discussing it.

Yet we, as Christians on this earth, are in a battle. The battle is spiritual. One of the tools used by the enemy of our souls to hope to lead us astray and unproductive for the Lord is deception.

I personally do not believe that we can be saved and sin as much as we want and be headed for heaven, but that is just one deceptive belief amongst many in the days we are living and not the subject of this thread.

There are many ways the enemy is continually working to deceive the Christian. The cheap grace or hypergrace message is only one.

Deception is a battle that occurs in the mind. Deception can happen quickly, but often deception happens very slowly, gradually ... liken to the slow, gradual boiling of the frog in the parable.

The victims of deception are lead astray, away from the faith, sometimes even into suicide.

Deception can be costly to the one deceived. It can be painful, even deadly. I would think most would not want to find themselves one day trapped in it.

To avoid being deceived, we need to guard our hearts.
We guard our hearts by guarding our mind, the entryway for deception.

We guard our mind by staying alert and paying attention to the things we are allowing into our minds.
We guard our mind by taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. (2 Cor. 10:5)
We guard our mind by not allowing the enemy to 'distract' us from thinking on the things that are of eternal value to us.

I believe we will want to understand and be aware of this very effective tool of the enemy ... deception ... if we hope to be victorious in this battle and enjoy the abundant life here on earth that we have been given in Jesus Christ.

I see this "grace to continue in sin" argument a perfect illustration of the very deception you describe. Look at what is happening. You try to shine light on the importance of truth, which immediately fires up the deceived and deceiving who do what they do best and take offence to someone shining a light. They proceed to reveal how much they are walking in deception by misreading every post about truth and attacking the poster. The problem is that those most likely to be warned of deception are the ones least caught up in it. The deceived are unable to see themselves as deceived, which creates in interesting dilemma to me, and I need to go examine my own heart for deception now.

 

[gideons300]

Hi Gideon,
To answer your question from post #39. I didn't write the bible, nor am I personally as forgiving at this time in my life as God. That said according to romans 4:8, the example you used that person would go to the same heaven you would. The" will not " in verse 8 is a double negative, implying future tense. If you got a problem with how God forgives take it up with him. I know it goes against the natural inclinations. But I didn't write it. Just a side note: one group who should think long, and is the judaizers. Paul spoke the double curse on them. I saying such because the thread is about deception.

Grace to you.

Finally, an answer. Thank you. There is great need for understanding here. I pray I can explain it. Let's read three verses that Paul wrote to believers:

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

1 Cor 6

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life."

Galatians 6

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Romans 6

Yet there is that verse and many others that tells us that by one offering, we are saved forever, that assure us the nothing shall separate us from the love of God.Is this not true? How is it possible that both can be true? I think there is an answer. I am going to share from my heart and try my best to explain.

IN our understanding of scriptures, there seem to be many conflicting verses that force believers into one camp or another. The doctrine of eternal security is certainly one of those. Each side (and that alone should tell us something is wrong) has many great scriptures that seemingly make their case a slam dunk. Neither side can see the other's argument. Is that a fair summary? LOL

This goes on in many, many areas of doctrinal truth, and we have seen many here on the forum, and ends up leaving us confused, arguing, frustrated, split from our brothers, and in the bigger picture, this conflict leads to schisms, sects, MORE denominations, which then split again over some other smaller doctrinal disagreement.

Then there are some that would say here, "Can't we all get along?" and that too is a good point, for ultimately, we are to love one another, especially those we are disagreed with, amen? But truth and salvation and sin are such important subjects, and deception is out there, like it or not, that it behooves us to get to the bottom of why these contradictions (or seemingly so) even exist... and more importantly, how to eliminate them.

If all of the word of God is inspired, and it is, and a house divided cannot stand, then somehow, some way, there has to be a path that ALL of the scriptures make sense, that all can be true, where everything fits. And I believe there is.

I have to go to work right now, but will speak more of this when I get home, but I would like all to pray today so that this discussion gets back to love as its basis. I will pray today for help in sharing the explanation I feel might shed some light here, and we all need more light. (When I say WE, I am including ME).

Have a great day,

Gideon

 

[Gregory Thompson]

a common deception today is when the bible made into a law unto itself . and people sitting in a lecture hall consent to being under this law . this law then becomes the power of sin . sin then becomes the death's sting .. and then the power of the devil .

this subtle deception gives foothold to the devil in many believers lives .

the general remedy to this is living by a premise of grace and mercy, trust in God, giving the bible a break .. until it is assigned a more holy distinction in the person's mind and heart . the whole idea "God is love" is anathema to those under the curse .. but to those escaping it is the breath of life .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fgmpWkUcpjo

 

[ToBeBlessed]

I love the verse that shows us that we know how to love because Jesus loved us first.

It is hard for us to understand or take in the overwhelming, unconditional love of Christ. I see many trying to put that love in human terms, defining it and figuring out who will be saved by the Lord and who will not.

I am a computer programmer/analyst by trade and to write any computer program that works you must be able to find any logic hole and fix it so the computer program you write does exactly what you want it to do 100% of the time, otherwise your logic is flawed.

Jesus loved us first. His love is the perfect love that we try to understand, but will never fully until the day when all truth becomes known to us. I see some, trying to define, making their case, writing their program of what is and what will be.

Those are the most deceived, those thinking they know what only the Lord will decide.

I am starting to see that because they don't really understand how much Jesus loved them first, they will never be able to understand the full extent of grace, because they don't think Jesus could ever love them quite that much.

They limit the love of Jesus to what ever the level of love is that they currently can comprehend and logically deal with. Jesus love level cannot be understood and dealt with with logic. It is spiritual.

Just like the pharisee's did in Jesus time, modern pharisee's make themselves known. They give themselves the glory in judgment and righteousness that was never theirs to give. Humble thyself before the Lord.