Parable of The Boiled Frog ...

[Frogster]

Um, no one is saying that saving grace leads to sin. Some of us are saying that what is often falsely called grace is not really grace but a lack of repentance. I have attempted to explain that. The above post challenges us to dispute a false argument, but since the argument is false there is no dispute to be made.

red above, but those preachers who keep telling people that they have to "repent", usng fear and guilt, on people they don't even know, those who tell the pracher they are fine with God, are actually being subject to a preacher who is deceiving them, using a law principle.

The deciever uses the repentance message, to deceive the innocent, to get the innocent person, in his camp because once he gets people feeling guitly, they are now hooked, then the preacher now feels validated, even though he deceived them usning guilt. He took that which is Holy, our bro's and sisters, and made them feel unholy, binding their conscience with guilt. The snare of Gal 5.


So sin, uses the law preachers message, I find that to be awful, boring, and redundant.


Rom7:11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

 

[Frogster]

Now the deceived person is in worse shape then ever, he was fine in Christs' righteousness, now the person has had the guilt seed imputed in hm or her, now comes that slow boil, istead of enjoying the Lord, and letting grace do its Job, the person more and more, gets into a larger sin law guilt cyccle, more and more deceived than ever, thinking that he can fix it, as he keeps trying to fix, the "sin" that the law preachers points at.


wow...really sad, that is decpetion big time, to be told fight a sin, one can't fight, one that only grace can fight, it is a pride message, pride is deception, the minister feeds pride, by making the person think he can fix a sin propblem!

 

[Optimax]

Is it safe for a "Froggy" to participate in a discussion on boiled frogs?

 

[Frogster]

Is it safe for a "Froggy" to participate in a discussion on boiled frogs?

Well, so long as they do not like frog soup.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Well, so long as they do not like frog soup.

Nice to see you still alive and jumping!

 

[mourningdove~]

Is it safe for a "Froggy" to participate in a discussion on boiled frogs?

This discussion is intended to be safe for everyone ...
though those not comfortable around the subject of deception could perhaps find themselves feeling alittle 'unsafe'.

 

[Messy]

Well, so long as they do not like frog soup.

I ate frogs once, they were delicious!! But don't worry, I only ate them because I diidn't know what it was. Never again, iiieeek, the idea.

 

[Frogster]

Nice to see you still alive and jumping!

Thanks! The frog will survive!

 

[Frogster]

I ate frogs once, they were delicious!! But don't worry, I only ate them because I diidn't know what it was. Never again, iiieeek, the idea.

add garlic.

 

[mourningdove~]

I see this "grace to continue in sin" argument a perfect illustration of the very deception you describe. Look at what is happening. You try to shine light on the importance of truth, which immediately fires up the deceived and deceiving who do what they do best and take offence to someone shining a light. They proceed to reveal how much they are walking in deception by misreading every post about truth and attacking the poster. The problem is that those most likely to be warned of deception are the ones least caught up in it. The deceived are unable to see themselves as deceived, which creates in interesting dilemma to me, and I need to go examine my own heart for deception now.

I don't disagree with your observations, nor with the need for each of us to routinely examine our own heart for deception.

 

[mourningdove~]

I see this "grace to continue in sin" argument a perfect illustration of the very deception you describe. Look at what is happening. You try to shine light on the importance of truth, which immediately fires up the deceived and deceiving who do what they do best and take offence to someone shining a light. They proceed to reveal how much they are walking in deception by misreading every post about truth and attacking the poster. The problem is that those most likely to be warned of deception are the ones least caught up in it. The deceived are unable to see themselves as deceived, which creates in interesting dilemma to me, and I need to go examine my own heart for deception now.

You mention illustrations.

You know, there is saying that goes "actions speak louder than words".

And another that goes "talk is cheap".

Personally, I learn more about people by watching their actions than by listening to their words.

A person is not living in truth if what they say does not match up with what they do.

... and if they think that they are, they are deceived.

 

[mourningdove~]

So, can we deceive ourselves?
The Bible says we can!

Let's look at it, as we continue our discussion on deception.​

​

Here are some of the ways:

- Hearing God's Word but not doing what it says.

"But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves."
(James 1:22)


- Saying I have no sin.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8)


- Thinking I am something that I'm really not.

"For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself."
(Galatians 6:3)


- Thinking I am wise in this worldly age.

"Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”;"
(1 Cor. 3:18-19)


- Thinking I can be truly religious but not control what I say.

"If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless."
(James 1:26)


-Thinking that God is the source of my problems.

(Lamentations 3)


- Thinking I can live my life without the help of others.

"For in fact the body is not one member but many. If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. And if they were all one member, where would the body be? But now indeed there are many members, yet one body."
(1 Cor. 12:14-20)

 

[jiminpa]

So, can we deceive ourselves?
The Bible says we can!

Let's look at it, as we continue our discussion on deception.​

Here are some of the ways:

- Hearing God's Word but not doing what it says.

"But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves."
(James 1:22)


- Saying I have no sin.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8)


- Thinking I am something that I'm really not.

"For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself."
(Galatians 6:3)


- Thinking I am wise in this worldly age.

"Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”;"
(1 Cor. 3:18-19)


- Thinking I can be truly religious but not control what I say.

"If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless."
(James 1:26)


-Thinking that God is the source of my problems.

(Lamentations 3)


- Thinking I can live my life without the help of others.

"For in fact the body is not one member but many. If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. And if they were all one member, where would the body be? But now indeed there are many members, yet one body."
(1 Cor. 12:14-20)

Excellent post! I can myself in too many of those illuminations.

 

[gideons300]

So, can we deceive ourselves?
The Bible says we can!

Let's look at it, as we continue our discussion on deception.​

​

Here are some of the ways:

- Hearing God's Word but not doing what it says.

"But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves."
(James 1:22)


- Saying I have no sin.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8)

Sister, I wanted to hone in on two points you brought out. The verse in
1 John is often one of the two verses, the other being Romans 7, that people use to think they are putting to rest any belief that what I say about the new man can possibly be true, and that what God has asked me to share is deception.

I have oftentimes thought to share on it, and it seems now it is a great opportunity, for here, many are kept in deception, believing that God cannot and will not deliver us from evil.

The first verse you quoted above, I wish to mention because if our flawed understanding of verse two is true, then we are guilty of the deception of verse one! Why? Because the Bible tells us to sin not. As a matter of fact, in the very same surrounding verses of the verse quoted in 1 John, he clearly says the same thing. Listen:

"If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.



Taking your one verse out of the flow of the conversation, it seems clear that there is no way we can truly walk in holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our lives.

That means that we are never safe from the danger of sin.

That means that God cannot keep us from falling.

That means we cannot abide in Him, for he that abides in Him sinneth not.

That means our shields of faith do not work all the time, just occasionally.

That means God DOES allow us to be tempted above our ability to withstand.

That means that we are NOT delivered from the power of darkness.

And all these "that's" mean that we cannot trust the promises of God and are left to ourselves with no anchor for our souls. That means we cannot stare satan in the eyes when he comes tempting, and say "That is NOT me. That WAS me. The truth has set me free and I am new, an overcomer."

So, we have a dilemma. Is there an explanation? Yes. It is all in voice inflection here as we read the above verses.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. (Now) if we say we have no sin (to be purified of) the truth is not in us.

If a man says he has no need of the sacrifice of Jesus because he has no sin in need of forgiveness, he lies. Is this the right understanding of this verse. It is, and John then clarifies it for us twice in short order.

First, he looks next that the sinner WAS us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and His word is not in us.

He is clearly saying that we cannot say that we did not need such forgiveness and cleansing because we had no sin to be cleansed from. But please note as well. Forgiveness and cleansing are two different things. We have been deceived to think that they are just one but they are not.

Forgiveness is what Jesus did for us when He died and we died with Him, as He took the punishment for our sins. That is the first half of the gospel.

Cleansing is what Jesus did for us when He rose from the dead and brought us up with Him so that we too can walk in newness of life. Cleansing is the new man. THAT is the glorious second half of the gospel that has been hid from our eyes since the grievous wolves came into the flock that Paul spoke about. It stopped the early rain, the long summer drought came, and the church has been holding on with forgiveness only for 1900 years.

If we read on in John, He nails what I have stated in 1 John 2:1

"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One"

What a wonderful verse. He tells us his purpose on writing....that we will not sin. How could he say that if what he meant earlier that if we say we are actually doing what he hopes we will do, we are now deceived? it makes no sense.

Yes, thank God, as we put on our new man, take hold of the armor, the sword and the shield of our Jesus, and take our stand that we are new creatures and reckon the old fleshly us as DEAD, then IF(not when, but if) we slip, we have a forgiving advocate. BUT, the purpose John writes is that we sin not.

When we get into 1 John 3, John really clarifies this whole deception that we seem many getting into, that grace can cover a man who continues to sin with little or no remorse or repentance and all is still well. It is a lie and John clarifies it.

"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.

The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

That is the answer. We can walk in our born again nature. We say the words "boen again" and have not even considered our unbelief as we utter those wonderful words. We ARE new!! Our old fallen nature, the one that like to sin, the one that likes to do ITS thing with IT in control and God the co-pilot, it died. We have come out of the grave with Christ, and can walk as overcomers. We do this by faith. We take OUR stand against the accusations of the enemy, and fight our good fight of faith.

Satan will do whatever it takes to make sure we do not get this, for once we do, and are established in this truth, rooted deeply in it, we are unshakable.

God is opening up our eyes to this truth in these last days. It is His plan, has always been His plan, and we are the glorious, privileged generation to re-discover that God DOES keep us from falling, by getting us to put on the new nature, reckon the old nature dead and to GROW in that grace.

THE deception that has bound the church into a religious institution for 1900 years is dissolving before our eyes. We are all awakening to that truth. The wheat will love it, embrace it and put it on. The tares will be exposed for they will love their sin and their autonomy, and refuse to hate their old nature, being deceived into thinking that grace makes sin a moot point.

Do I believe in OSAS? Yes. Shocked? But listen, let me share what that means. It means

Once SAFE, always saved.

How do we get safe? We put on the new man which is Jesus IN US. If we are really crucified with Him, and raised to newness of life with Him, will we sin, if He is the one now in control, causing us to do righteousness? No. We will be kept safe, safe from falling, just as He promised.

"The name of the Lord is a strong and mighty tower. The RIGHTEOUS runs in and is SAFE."

Praise God.

Blessings to all.

Gideon

 

[ToBeBlessed]

I see this "grace to continue in sin" argument a perfect illustration of the very deception you describe. Look at what is happening. You try to shine light on the importance of truth, which immediately fires up the deceived and deceiving who do what they do best and take offence to someone shining a light. They proceed to reveal how much they are walking in deception by misreading every post about truth and attacking the poster. The problem is that those most likely to be warned of deception are the ones least caught up in it. The deceived are unable to see themselves as deceived, which creates in interesting dilemma to me, and I need to go examine my own heart for deception now.

I see the "grace to continue to sin" (see red above) argument to be FALSE. :o

No one that I've seen that believes we are saved by grace, advocates that it is ok to continue to sin? Where are you seeing that?

These are the types of statements that I have requested that God's people, Christians with the Holy Spirit of truth in them, show proof of. If it's not truth, then it's 'the other thing'. :o We are not called to untruth, are we?

 

[mourningdove~]

Sister, I wanted to hone in on two points you brought out. The verse in

1 John is often one of the two verses, the other being Romans 7, that people use to think they are putting to rest any belief that what I say about the new man can possibly be true, and that what God has asked me to share is deception.

I have oftentimes thought to share on it, and it seems now it is a great opportunity, for here, many are kept in deception, believing that God cannot and will not deliver us from evil.

Gideon,

I do not believe God cannot and will not deliver us from evil.
I do believe He can, and He does.

However, the only person I know of that has ever lived a sinless life while living on this earth was Jesus.

Are you saying that, since reckoning the flesh dead, YOU also now do?

I wonder this often, reading your posts. Thank you for the opportunity to ask you.

If you would simply please answer my question above (no sin 'details' are being requested) ...
and do so without presenting more doctrine at this point ...
I would appreciate it.

 

[Frogster]

.

 

[Frogster]

Nm, moving on, unless something fresh comes along, thanks, frog.

 

[gideons300]

Gideon,

I do not believe God cannot and will not deliver us from evil.
I do believe He can, and He does.

However, the only person I know of that has ever lived a sinless life while living on this earth was Jesus.

Are you saying that, since reckoning the flesh dead, YOU also now do?

I wonder this often, reading your posts. Thank you for the opportunity to ask you.

If you would simply please answer my question above (no sin 'details' are being requested) ...
and do so without presenting more doctrine at this point ...
I would appreciate it.

Sister, thank you for your question, It is a fair one. Let me explain. There is a huge difference between being sinless, a state WE achieve, and being kept from falling, which is the birthright of all of us who are His.

Have I sinned since I first received over five years ago. Yes. And it crushes me if I do. Why did I fall? One reason only. Doubt. How do we overcome? Faith. Why do we fall? Doubt. But the key here is this. IF I fall, I get up, repent in turning away from it to the giver of life, and hoist my shield of faith again as to who I am in Him. I am new for He has made me new.

Now satan immediately will swoop in like he always does in us after a fall, and begin accusing me, telling me how bad I am, etc. What does he get instead now? It is not I that lives, but Christ now lives in me, and He will keep me for He has made me a new creature. And praise God, the shield works.

As we continue in His word, and not let go of it, amazingly, the grip that sin had lessens, weakens and dies. Can we walk through all the arrows of the enemy and not fall? Absolutely. All of us can. it is our birthright and it is high time we believed it and took it back from the enemy of our souls.

I pray this helps.

Gideon

 

[gideons300]

Gideon,

I do not believe God cannot and will not deliver us from evil.
I do believe He can, and He does.

However, the only person I know of that has ever lived a sinless life while living on this earth was Jesus.

Are you saying that, since reckoning the flesh dead, YOU also now do?

I wonder this often, reading your posts. Thank you for the opportunity to ask you.

If you would simply please answer my question above (no sin 'details' are being requested) ...
and do so without presenting more doctrine at this point ...
I would appreciate it.

We all have a good fight of faith to wage. According to our faith be it unto us. So as we become established in the faith, what happens? We find the things that used to "get us" no longer do.

This is NOT sinless perfection, not by a long shot. Being freed from the grip of sin is just getting rid of the darkness. Then the process of growing in the light begins, not growing towards it.

Blessings,

Gids