Our built in disposition to sin

[fhansen]

Really? The OT and NT is only 500 years old?

Here is a pasasage showing it is God who changes our hearts not we ourselves.

Ezekiel 36: 25 ¶ Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This is one of my favorite scriptural promises. Demonstrate for me where this passage leaves any room for anyone other than God to change us, our attitudes and our spiritual condition.

It doesn't. Man is lost, not to mention prideful, rebellious, and sinful-he certainly can't save himself. It also says nothing about a sin nature. Man's problem is that something is lacking, not that something has been added.

 

[oikonomia]

And "constituted" can simply mean made sinners, which is the way most translations render it. So, as Adam alienated mankind from God, men inevitably became (were made) sinners, because that union or fellowship with Him is absolutely paramount, essential, to our having righteousness, which is why righteousness is attained again by the reconciliation with God that Jesus accomplished; we're made righteous. Man, alone, apart from God, acting solely as his own authority, will sin IOW. "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). But, "With God all things are possible" (Matt 19:26). That's the message; man must heed and remain in communion with God, and only God can accomplish that vital, life-giving reunion.

Satan doesn't really need to do much-we follow him easily enough just by being carried away by our own lusts (James1:14-15-and we're on his rebellious turf in any case to the extent that we remain in exile from our Creator.

James reaffirms what Paul wrote that there is a problem in the members of our body.

Where do wars and fightings among you come from? Are they not from this,
from your pleasures that war in your members? (James 1:4)

Compare:

But I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and
making me a captive to the law of sin which is in my members.
Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death? (Rom.7:23,24)

Peter confers that the lusts in man's fallen body
are waging war against his soul.

Beloved, I entreat you as strangers and sojourners to abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul, (1 Pet. 2:11)

This sin infested body shows Satan working from the outside towards the inner man to corrupt him,
And Christ's salvation is waring from the innermost spiritual part of man outward to the circumference.
The last stage of this regeneration - transformation - transfiguration is glorification from "the body of our humliation"

For our commonwealth exists in the heavens, from which also we eagerly await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of His glory, according to His operation by which He is able even to subject all things to Himself. (Phil. 3:20)

 

[daq]

James reaffirms what Paul wrote that there is a problem in the members of our body.

Where do wars and fightings among you come from? Are they not from this,
from your pleasures that war in your members? (James 1:4)

Compare:

But I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and
making me a captive to the law of sin which is in my members.
Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death? (Rom.7:23,24)

Peter confers that the lusts in man's fallen body
are waging war against his soul.

Beloved, I entreat you as strangers and sojourners to abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul, (1 Pet. 2:11)

This sin infested body shows Satan working from the outside towards the inner man to corrupt him,
And Christ's salvation is waring from the innermost spiritual part of man outward to the circumference.
The last stage of this regeneration - transformation - transfiguration is glorification of "the body of our humliation"

For our commonwealth exists in the heavens, from which also we eagerly await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of His glory, according to His operation by which He is able even to subject all things to Himself. (Phil. 3:20)

So the Creator put sin in your members? If that's what you mean it is the same thing the OP is teaching and it's already been shown to be false in all the scripture that was posted on the first page which he also ignored.

 

[daq]

We inherited our sinful nature from Adam and Eve. That means we are sinful right down to the level of our DNA. There is no way we can change that. Paul tells us we have sinful flesh multiple times.

This is not the historic teaching of God's church. Man did not gain something at the Fall, as in a new nature; rather he lost something; he fell, from grace, from the goodness that's inherent in our being in union with Him. This is why the chief aspect of the state of original sin is the alienation from God that we're all born into. We lost the knowledge of God which essential to our possessing life.

Where have I ever said that we gained anything at the fall? I don't believe that in the least. My post ought to tell you that. We lost our ability to obey God at the fall of Adam and Eve. I don't know how you can read my post and say humanity gained anything at the fall. Unless, that is, you think a subtraction of our ability to obey God is a plus.

Gary, if indeed mankind inherited a sin nature from the first man, Adam, and yet Adam did not gain or acquire that sin nature when he transgressed, because he transgressed, then he must have been created with that sin nature because that is the only other place where he could have received it: thus you by default teach that the first man Adam was created with a sin nature. It doesn't matter whether you try to deny this or not: it is the logical conclusion of your argument, whether you realize it or not.

 

[oikonomia]

So the Creator put sin in your members? If that's what you mean it is the same thing the OP is teaching and it's already been shown to be false in all the scripture that was posted on the first page which he also ignored.

Romans 5:19 does not say "by one God [Creator] many were constituted sinners."
It says For just as through the disobedience of ONE MAN the many were constituted sinners

We were constituted sinners -
1.) through the Creator
2.) through a created man

# 2 is the right answer.
You see Adam's disobedience caused man to be joined to God's enemy - Satan.

 

[oikonomia]

if indeed mankind inherited a sin nature from the first man, Adam,

The blame for this concept has to go to the Holy Bible.
For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were constituted sinners, (Rom. 5:19a)

Now If you do not agree than you must direct your argument against the Bible.
Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; (Rom 5:12a)

and yet Adam did not gain or acquire that sin nature when he transgressed,

The tranasgression was Adam eating of the forbidden fruit.
That was the "line in the sand" which he was not to cross.

He could talk about the forbidden fruit. He could make a poem about it.
He could philsophies about it or sing about it. Probably even be tempted by it.
He could do whatever but he was not to EAT of it.

When he ATE of it he crossed the line and transgressed.
And it was then that SIN got into his being.

The chemistry or physiology of it is too hard of a matter for me to know.
But . . . through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned —

You like the OT as I also do. Solomon, a very wise man saidby revelation imo, God made man upright.
See, this alone have I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes. (Ecc. 7:15)

David, realizing how deep in the fabric of his being sin was came to the realization that he was born from his mother that way.
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin did my mother conceive me.(Psalm 51:5)

because he transgressed, then he must have been created with that sin nature because that is the only other place where he could have received it:

We should rather go along with what the Bible says.
When God CREATED man, man was in an neutral position between two sources of living - God and God's enemy.
When God CREATED man He said his creation was "very good".

And God saw everything that He had made, and indeed, it was very good.
And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. (Gen. 1:31)

Man came from the creating hand of God -
1.) very good
2.) neutral between his Creator and the enemy of God and man - Satan
3.) with a free deciding will to turn in either direction to live

The line in the sand [so to speak] which would indicate that he chose Satan (the serpent) and death
was the command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

And out of the ground Jehovah God caused to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, as well as the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (Gen. 2:9)

And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may eat freely,
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, of it you shall not eat;
for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. (vs. 16,17)

 

[daq]

The blame for this concept has to go to the Holy Bible.
For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were constituted sinners, (Rom. 5:19a)

Now If you do not agree than you must direct your argument against the Bible.
Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; (Rom 5:12a)

No, I have already directed my argument against the persons with whom I disagree because of the teachings I find in the Bible. It is because of the teachings which I find in the Bible that I disagree with the statements which I have quoted from the OP and why I questioned what you meant in the post of yours which I quoted. Why would I blame the scripture for things you and the OP are saying which I cannot find being taught in the scripture?

 

[oikonomia]

No, I have already directed my argument against the persons with whom I disagree because of the teachings I find in the Bible.

Well, I have not followed every exchange between yourself and another poster.
But Romans is clear how this sin nature enter into our world.

It is because of the teachings which I find in the Bible that I disagree with the statements which I have quoted from the OP and why I questioned what you meant in the post of yours which I quoted. Why would I blame the scripture for things you and the OP are saying which I cannot find being taught in the scripture?

I recall that I agreed with the OP's references to Romans 7.
Throughout that chapter Paul discribes sin nature as a personified living person.

Within the members of his fallen body is someone who deceives, kills, takes opportunity, captures, wars, revives, etc.
It is quite a delimma. On the other side of transfiguration we will look back in horror. Our true corruption and pollution
by this nature is really bad.

I would have to re-visit all the exchanges and complaints raised to know what you don't agree with or what
may have been in the OP which is unbiblical. We prove all things and hold fast to what is good.
And Paul's diagnosis of the fallen humanity corrupted by the sin nature is revelatory in Romans.

Without effort or thinking about it much we spontaneosly express Satan.
Christ's salvation in full is going to competely reverse that. And even now we have firstfruits of the full final taste.
I mean through the indwelling of Christ we are headed toward just as spontaneous and innate expression of Christ manifested in us.

But for now it is like salmon fish swimming upstrean against the downward current.
We must "Excercise . . . unto godliness" by the exercise of setting our mind on the spirit where the Spirit of Christ is,
to overcome.

 

[oikonomia]

That is the teaching-doctrine of an old proverb that is denounced and forbidden in the Prophets.

Ezekiel 18:1-4 KJV
1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

I don't think you are applying the passage rightly if you mean it CORRECTS Romans 5.
Are you saying Paul in the book of Romans is wrong?

You much overstretch those people's proverb and God's rebuke of it if you mean
we need to take OUT of the New Testament Romans 5 and 7 and insert there instead Ezekiel 18.

The same with Deutoronomy 24:16.
I will not say "The book of Romans erred. And instead of sin entering into the world through Adam, Deuteronomy contradicts
the apostle's mistake."

Jesus taught that the root problem with man was that the fruit produced by him resulted from his nature.
So the nature had to be cured. The evil "tree"can only produce evil fruit. And the good tree can only produce good fruit.

Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrupt; for by the fruit the tree is known. (Matt. 12:33)

 

[daq]

I don't think you are applying the passage rightly if you mean it CORRECTS Romans 5.
Are you saying Paul in the book of Romans is wrong?

You much overstretch those people's proverb and God's rebuke of it if you mean
we need to take OUT of the New Testament Romans 5 and 7 and insert there instead Ezekiel 18.

The same with Deutoronomy 24:16.
I will not say "The book of Romans erred. And instead of sin entering into the world through Adam, Deuteronomy contradicts
the apostles mistake."

Jesus taught that the root problem with man was that the fruit produced by him resulted from his nature.
So the nature had to be cured. The evil "tree"can only produce evil fruit. And the good tree can only produce good fruit.

Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrupt; for by the fruit the tree is known. (Matt. 12:33)

Why would my disagreement with your understanding of Paul make Paul the one who is wrong? It is you and the OP I disagree with, not Paul, which requires that you understand that I do not believe you have correctly understood the writings of Paul.

 

[oikonomia]

The good news is grace overcomes this corrupting constituion.

Where sin abounded grace superabounds.
The abundance of empowering grace and with it the gift of objective
and subjective righteousness empower those who live by it to reign in the divine life.

For if, by the offense of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. (Rom. 5:17)

And the law entered in alongside that the offense might abound;
but where sin abounded, grace has superabounded, (Rom.5:20)

 

[daq]

I don't think you are applying the passage rightly if you mean it CORRECTS Romans 5.
Are you saying Paul in the book of Romans is wrong?

You much overstretch those people's proverb and God's rebuke of it if you mean
we need to take OUT of the New Testament Romans 5 and 7 and insert there instead Ezekiel 18.

The same with Deutoronomy 24:16.
I will not say "The book of Romans erred. And instead of sin entering into the world through Adam, Deuteronomy contradicts
the apostle's mistake."

Jesus taught that the root problem with man was that the fruit produced by him resulted from his nature.
So the nature had to be cured. The evil "tree"can only produce evil fruit. And the good tree can only produce good fruit.

Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrupt; for by the fruit the tree is known. (Matt. 12:33)

Why are you not able instead to rectify your own position so that the teaching of Paul and the passages which I quoted from the Prophets are both in agreement? That is what we are supposed to do if we truly wish to understand the scripture. It is not supposed to be Paul vs the Prophets, or the Prophets vs Paul, or Paul vs the Torah, or the Torah vs Paul. It is not supposed to be choose one or the other: it is all the holy scripture and Word of the Father. If you are forced to choose one over the other it is a sure sign that you have built doctrine upon the one you accept while ignoring the other because you choose not to receive the background sources for the teaching you are espousing. In other words be a scripture Berean, not a scripture nullifier when it doesn't agree with your doctrine.

Romans 5:14 ASV
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.

For starters please explain why Paul says that death reigned from Adam until Mosheh instead of saying that death reigned from Adam until Meshiah. Do you have any thoughts on what that means or why Paul says death only reigned until the time of the giving of the Torah? Why did death not rather reign all the way until the resurrection of Meshiah? Doesn't that seem like it would be more logical? However that clearly is not what Paul says.

Somehow, according to Paul, death only reigned until Mosheh, (the giving of the Torah).
No doubt that will be disconcerting for some: I sure hope you have an answer, (from the scripture).

 

[oikonomia]

Why are you not able instead to rectify your own position so that the teaching of Paul and the passages which I quoted from the Prophets are both in agreement?

The New Testament speaks of some things which were not revealed to the sons of men previously.

By which, in reading it, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ,
Which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men,
as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in spirit, (Eph. 3:5)

We should come to the New Testament with an opened heart
expecting to learn things not revealed in the Old Testament.

Romans 5:14 ASV
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.

In this section of Romans Paul moves from speaking about individual sins to sin as nature.
Saying death reigned from Adam until Moses is not saying after Moses no one would die.

Paul is explaining that though death reigned the nature of SIN was exposed by the giving of the law.
And the law entered in alongside that the offense might abound; but where sin abounded, grace has superabounded, (Rom. 5:20)

Moses with the law of God entered to thoroughly expose the nature of sin.
People still die after the giving of the law yet in Christ grace reigns over the reigning of death WHEN men
avail themselves of all the benefit of Christ living in them.
In order that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign
through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (v.21)

The gospel is that grace, which is God being for us whatever we need, delivers us from the reigning of sin and death to bring
the believers into reigning in divine life which is in Christ. And that superaboundantly.
For if, by the offense of the one, death reigned through the one,
much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness
will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. (v.17)

Finally after a life of reigning in divine life and experiencing the reigning of grace and the impartation of
righteousness in living, death becomes like a wasp that has had its stinger torn out,

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
And when this corruptible will put on incorruption and this mortal will put on immortality,
then the word which is written will come to pass, “Death has been swallowed up unto victory.”
Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting? (1 Cor. 15;53-55)

For starters please explain why Paul says that death reigned from Adam until Mosheh instead of saying that death reigned from Adam until Meshiah. Do you have any thoughts on what that means or why Paul says death only reigned until the time of the giving of the Torah? Why did death not rather reign all the way until the resurrection of Meshiah? Doesn't that seem like it would be more logical? However that clearly is not what Paul says.

Death is not only the cessation of the heart. Death in Romans also means weakness, powerlessness, inability, vanity, and bondage.
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace. (Rom. 8:6)

And before physical resurrection finally removes the sting of death, grace, which is Christ being for us everything we need, superabounds in those who learn to abide in Him. And death is dethroned and by the aboundane of grace and in grace the gift of righteousness causes the saved to reign in life.

For if, by the offense of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. (Rom. 5:17)

The law entered to expose the nature of sin so that against that dark background so the superabundance of Christ
as grace might all the more shine in bright contrast.

And the law entered in alongside that the offense might abound; but where sin abounded, grace has superabounded,
In order that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom. 5:20,21)

The law actually gives power to the sin nature.
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. (1 Cor. 15:56)

That the power of sin is the law is a New Testament revelation
not seen by the sons of men so clearly in Old Testament times.
Thank God for His progressive revelation in Jesus Christ and through His apostles.

We ought not rebel against this New Testament revelation.

 

[Gary K]

@daq

So explain how my OP was wrong using the following 24 passages of scripture from Paul.

Romans 6: 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Romans 7: 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Romans 7: 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Romans 7: 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8: 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 8: 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8: 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Romans 8: 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 9: 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Romans 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

1Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

2Corinthians 7: 1 HAVING therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2Corinthians 10: 2 But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

Galatians 2: 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 4: 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Galatians 5: 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Galatians 5: 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 6: 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Ephesians 2: 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Colossians 2: 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2: 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Collossians 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

 

[daq]

The New Testament speaks of some things which were not revealed to the sons of men previously.

By which, in reading it, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ,
Which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men,
as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in spirit, (Eph. 3:5)

We should come to the New Testament with an opened heart
expecting to learn things not revealed in the Old Testament.

That is completely different than using the N/T to overturn the Prophets.
We should come to the whole body of the Word with an open heart.

In this section of Romans Paul moves from speaking about individual sins to sin as nature.
Saying death reigned from Adam until Moses is not saying after Moses no one would die.

I did not say that.

Paul is explaining that though death reigned the nature of SIN was exposed by the giving of the law.
And the law entered in alongside that the offense might abound; but where sin abounded, grace has superabounded, (Rom. 5:20)

Moses with the law of God entered to thoroughly expose the nature of sin.
People still die after the giving of the law yet in Christ grace reigns over the reigning of death WHEN men
avail themselves of all the benefit of Christ living in them.
In order that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign
through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (v.21)

"People still die after the giving of the law" is not an answer that has any impact on my understanding because I do not believe Paul is speaking of physical death here. If death reigned from Adam to Mosheh, and that is where Paul stops with that line of reasoning, how can you think he is speaking of physical death? That cannot be, for of course people still died after Mosheh: isn't that obvious?

The gospel is that grace, which is God being for us whatever we need,delivers us from the reigning of sin and death to bring

the believers into reigning in divine life which is in Christ. And that superaboundantly.
For if, by the offense of the one, death reigned through the one,
much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness
will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. (v.17)

Finally after a life of reigning in divine life and experiencing the reigning of grace and the impartation of
righteousness in living, death becomes like a wasp that has had its stinger torn out,

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
And when this corruptible will put on incorruption and this mortal will put on immortality,
then the word which is written will come to pass, “Death has been swallowed up unto victory.”
Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting? (1 Cor. 15;53-55)

By switching over to now speaking about spiritual life and spiritual death you have essentially nullified what Paul said about death reigning only until Mosheh, which is when the Torah was given: do you see what you did? Our minds are notorious for doing this to us without we ourselves even realizing it often times.

Death is not only the cessation of the heart. Death in Romans also means weakness, powerlessness, inability, vanity, and bondage.
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace. (Rom. 8:6)

I understand those things: move them back in your timeline to Mosheh.

And before physical resurrection finally removes the sting of death, grace, which is Christ being for us everything we need, superabounds in those who learn to abide in Him. And death is dethroned and by the aboundane of grace and in grace the gift of righteousness causes the saved to reign in life.

As for myself, death no longer has a sting as it is right now.

For if, by the offense of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. (Rom. 5:17)

The law entered to expose the nature of sin so that against that dark background so the superabundance of Christ
as grace might all the more shine in bright contrast.

And the law entered in alongside that the offense might abound; but where sin abounded, grace has superabounded,
In order that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom. 5:20,21)

The law actually gives power to the sin nature.
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. (1 Cor. 15:56)

That the power of sin is the law is a New Testament revelation
not seen by the sons of men so clearly in Old Testament times.
Thank God for His progressive revelation in Jesus Christ and through His apostles.

That power is taken from the enemy when you die according to the Prophet Jeremiah, as was quoted on the first page in reply #2, and according to how Meshiah teaches, as I also already said in that same post.

That is the teaching-doctrine of an old proverb that is denounced and forbidden in the Prophets.

Ezekiel 18:1-4 KJV
1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:19-23 KJV
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

And the Torah teaches the same:

Deuteronomy 24:16 KJV
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

And the false proverb is again spoken against in the context of the Renewed Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:26-31 KJV
26 Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.
27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

The Testimony of the Meshiah teaches us how to die in the manner that is pleasing to the Father.

We ought not rebel against this New Testament revelation.

Nor against the Testimony of the Master and the Torah, Prophets, and Writings.

 

[daq]

@daq

So explain how my OP was wrong using the following 24 passages of scripture from Paul.

Romans 6: 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Romans 7: 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Romans 7: 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Romans 7: 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8: 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 8: 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8: 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Romans 8: 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 9: 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Romans 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

1Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

2Corinthians 7: 1 HAVING therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2Corinthians 10: 2 But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

Galatians 2: 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 4: 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Galatians 5: 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Galatians 5: 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 6: 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Ephesians 2: 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Colossians 2: 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2: 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Collossians 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

If you look back at my first post on page one I did not dispute any scripture which you posted in the OP.
The only portion of your post which I quoted and disputed was the following:

We inherited our sinful nature from Adam and Eve. That means we are sinful right down to the level of our DNA. There is no way we can change that. Paul tells us we have sinful flesh multiple times.

That's it: I disputed your opening statement and gave my reasons why from the scripture.

 

[Gary K]

If you look back at my first post on page one I did not dispute any scripture which you posted in the OP.
The only portion of your post which I quoted and disputed was the following:



That's it: I disputed your opening statement and gave my reasons why from the scripture.

I asked you to disprove the 24 scripture passages I quoted from Paul on our sinful flesh So why haven't you done it? It's been hours since I made my last post.

 

[oikonomia]

That is completely different than using the N/T to overturn the Prophets.
We should come to the whole body of the Word with an open heart.

Whether you use the word "overturn" or some other word with negative connotation the fact
is there is a new covenant. God declared it saying the first covenant would be replaced.

Indeed, days are coming, declares Jehovah, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by their hand to bring them out from the land of Egypt,
My covenant which they broke, although I was their Husband, declares Jehovah. (Jer. 31:31,32)

If "not like the covenant which I made " is superceded by " I will make a new covenant" means to you "overturn" so be it.
The old covenant is replaced by the new.

. If death reigned from Adam to Mosheh, and that is where Paul stops with that line of reasoning, how can you think he is speaking of physical death?

The Bible divides human history up into what we can call dispensations. The most biblical way to recognize four major ones.

From Adam to Moses - Romans 5:14
From Moses to Christ - John 1:17
From the first coming of Christ to His second coming - Acts 3:20,21
From the start of the millennial kingdom to its end - Rev. 20:2-6

There are other ways to think of dispensations. This is the clearest biblical way.
Of course on either side of these four periods is eternity past and eternity future.

When Romans says "death reign from Adam to Moses" I think he is showing that before the nature of sin
was so exposed by the law of Moses, death still demonstrated that it had an effect from Adam.
I am willing to think about some other significance you think "from Adam to Moses" might have.

However, Paul's burden there is to contrast this present time under the new covenant with previous times before it came.

In the new covenant which replaces the old covenant, the reign of death is replaced by another reigning.
That is the reign of those who receive "the abundance of grace". And in that they also receive "the gift of righteousness".
Having these new covenant matters they will now "reign in life" through the new head of a new humanity, the One Jesus Christ.

For if, by the offense of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. (Rom. 5:17)

By switching over to now speaking about spiritual life and spiritual death you have essentially nullified what Paul said about death reigning only until Mosheh, which is when the Torah was given: do you see what you did? Our minds are notorious for doing this to us without we ourselves even realizing it often times.

This kind of accusation I regard as a continuation of your obsession to exalt the law of Moses over the Son of God.
The first covenant became decrepit says the book of Hebrews as it discusses Jeremiah's prophecy.

In saying, A new covenant, He has made the first old.
But that which is becoming old and growing decrepit is near to disappearing. (Hebrews 8:13)

You are still fighting the same battle you fight over Second Corinthians 3.
You hate that the first covenant would had a fading glory.
And here you complain of "overturning" because other NT passages speak of the replacing of the old with the new.

When Jesus was seen on the Mt. of Transfigfuration with Moses and Elijah Peter was very excited.
He wanted to place the three of them on the same level of significance.
The voice the Father forbidded us from regarding Moses and Elijah as on the same level as the Son of God.

And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You are willing, I will make three tents here, one for You and one for Moses and one for Elijah.

While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I have found My delight. Hear Him! (Matt. 17:4,5)

Would you object that what Moses and Elijah represented (the law and the prophets) was superceded by whatever the Son of God says?
Would you complain that the Father was "overturning" the Old Testament figures with the Son of God? So be it.

 

[oikonomia]

I understand those things: move them back in your timeline to Mosheh.

For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged to one’s account when there is no law.
But death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of Adam’s transgression,
who is a type of Him who was to come. (Rom. 5:13,14)

Of course the word of God is vry deep like an exhaustless mine. And I am happy to look to the Holy Spirit
for more light on "death reigned from Adam to Moses."

What is important not to miss is that Adam was a type of Christ.
God sees basically only two important men as heads of two humanities.

Moses is called "the first man" and Christ is "the second man"
Christ is also "the last Adam". He became a divine life imparting Spirit to dispense God's Himself into a new humanity of God-men.
This fantastic truth we can never exhaust.

So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul”; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45)

Back in Romans this new head of a new humanity is stressed. Adam was just a type of Christ.
Christ as the Head of a new humanity within whom God lives as grace is a totally new arrangement.
And since Christ is the antitype of Adam it proves that beforehand in God's heart was His eternal purpose to
head up all predestined, called, justified, glorfied human beings a divine/human race in Jesus Christ.

This second man is God incarnate as the man from heaven.
The first man is out of the earth, earthy; the second man is out of heaven. (1 Cor. 15:47)

In Genesis after the fall of Adam multitudes of humans are listed. Concerning all of them with the exception
of Enoch, the phrases is repeated "and he died . . . and he died . . . and he died . . . and he died."

For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged to one’s account when there is no law. (Rom. 5:13)

But death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of Adam’s transgression, who is a type of Him who was to come. (Rom. 5:14)

The law was given to expose the hopeless nature of sin. I think Paul means that the nature of sin was not held to
one's account where the law had not yet been given. The nature is now held to one's account as now the Law
causes it to be exposed how DEEPLY is the revolt against God in constituted into the fabric of man's being.

And the law entered in alongside that the offense might abound; (Rom. 5:20a)

Now in the second man, the antitype of the type of Adam, the first man, this One has become
the indwelling life giving Spirit to all who receive Him. And verses 19 - 21 now can be seen in their entirety.

For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous. And the law entered in alongside that the offense might abound; but where sin abounded, grace has superabounded, In order that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Whatever positive effect the law had is pales in comparison to the power of grace.
Grace means the Triune God Himself mingles with the justified sinner to now allow him to live
a life in life union with the perfect life.

It seems that you want to exploit the phrase "death reigned from Adam until Moses" to teach that it was
a bigger deal what Moses came with than what the Son of God is. Afterall, what came through Moses should never in'
your mind be "overturned".

 

[oikonomia]

As for myself, death no longer has a sting as it is right now.

Physical death has its "calling cards" which precede it. These preliminary things include many unpleasant matters like
phychological depression, sense of emptiness, uneasiness, wrestlessness, vanity, darkness in the conscience, dark moods, etc.

These are like the "calling cards" which precede physical death.
And I too have found deliverance in the Holy Spirit in my spirit from these things.

When First Corinthians 15 (a chapter on resurrection) mentions its ultimate vanquishment it speaks in
terms of what we have not YET experienced - phyisical resurrection and transfiguration.
The TIME of this ultimate vanquishing is at that "WHEN". The "WHEN" time refers to the moment of resurrection physical and transfiguration.

Read it carefully. My emphasis below.

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
And WHEN this corruptible will put on incorruption and this mortal will put on immortality, then the word which is written will come to pass, “Death has been swallowed up unto victory.”

Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting? (1 Cor. 15:51-55)

That power is taken from the enemy when you die according to the Prophet Jeremiah, as was quoted on the first page in reply #2, and according to how Meshiah teaches, as I also already said in that same post.

I'll have to look back at that latter - a passage you quoted from Jeremiah.

The law has its positive purpose and its negative purpose.
It has its "day" side and its "night" side as I learned.

For example, the law is afterall the words of God. And man needs to live by every word out of the mouth of God.
As a new covenant believer a Psalm like 119 has an echo in my heart. How precious are all the utterances of God's commandments.

But the principle we are to live by in the new covnenant is that there is One living within us - Jesus the Son of God who became
in a form of "life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45B)

He alone is absolute for the will of the Father.
He alone is well pleasing to the Father.
He alone fulfills the will and purpose of God.
We have to see deeply our life union with Him and "abide in Him."

Then He as the superabounding grace brings into our very living "the gift of righteousness" and we
can move unto eternal life as a destination.

In order that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom. 5:21)