Our built in disposition to sin

[oikonomia]

To help distinguish between SIN [singular noun] as a nature
and sins [plural] as actions of transgression.

The help I receive from the following is from "The Gospel of God" Vol. 1 by Watchman Nee,
chapter entitled "SIN, SINS, AND THE SINNER"
Also seen in "The Collected Works of Watchman Nee". Pubished by Living Stream Ministry.

It is not verbatim quotes below.

In Scripture-

Sin as a nature is said to be in the flesh.
But sins are matters of conduct

Sin as a nature is a principle of our life.
Sins are acts comitted by us.

Sin is a nature related to our being.
Sins are activities in our living.

Sin is a law in the members of our body.
Sins are transgressions that we commit - the real acts we carry out.

Sin are about what we ARE.
Sins are about what we DO.

Sin is what God reveal that we are made of.
Sins are the acts made known to our conscience.

Sin as a nature is related to the power we are infested with.
Sins are the actions reveal the power of our conscience.

Sin is considered as a whole.
Sins are considered case by case.

Sin is a nature inside of man.
Sins are before God.

Sin requires man to be set free from God's life greater power.
Sins require God's forgiveness.

Sin is related to sanctification.
Sins are related to justification.

Sin requires a greater life power to overcome.
Sins require forgiveness for peace in our heart.

Sin is in man's nature.
Sins are in man's ways.

 

[fhansen]

"There is a genetic aspect to sin. I have no idea how it happened, but it did as the Bible so clearly tells us. It's why the redeemed are given new bodies at the 2nd coming. That takes away our built in disposition to sin"

Paul says it was the law which made man's flesh sinful.
He says "I had not known sin but by the law. I had not known desire but by the law that says Thou shall not covet"

When God told Adam not to eat of the tree He set down a law. So when Adam desired something that didn't belong to him he was coveting because to covet means to desire what is not yours

So God created Adam to sin, and then blamed him for sinning?

 

[One God and Father of All]

So God created Adam to sin, and then blamed him for sinning?

Adam’s children are of the same nature as he. If Adam’s nature became sinful after he sinned then he wouldn’t have sinned in the first place.

 

[fhansen]

Adam’s children are of the same nature as he. If Adam’s nature became sinful after he sinned then he wouldn’t have sinned in the first place.

I think Adam was created perfect as to his human nature, and yet imperfect as to his wisdom, which would only be gained the hard way, by experience, according to God's perfect wisdom and plan. In this way Adam would be guided by grace, yet remain free in will, to choose good or evil, obedience or disobedience. He should, like the prodigal, eventually come back home at the end, after experiencing life in the pigsty. He needs to learn that his plan, of autonomy from God-backfired in regard to giving him any more life, fulfillment, happiness, integrity, etc. That's what we're all here to learn now, being one with Adam and his Fall. We're here to learn how and why love of God and neighbor is of supreme, incomparable value, a love that He's definitively shown us first. Then we'd all obey, willingly.

Meanwhile, our real state of "falleness" is simply our alienation from God, lost, without hope of finding and returning to Him on our own. Man was made for communion with God. Man is lost, sick, dead, crippled, and existing in a state of injustice, to the extent that he's separated from Him. And injustice, sin, is inevitable without that vital union. It's like a crucial part of us is missing.

 

[Gary K]

"There is a genetic aspect to sin. I have no idea how it happened, but it did as the Bible so clearly tells us. It's why the redeemed are given new bodies at the 2nd coming. That takes away our built in disposition to sin"

Paul says it was the law which made man's flesh sinful.
He says "I had not known sin but by the law. I had not known desire but by the law that says Thou shall not covet"

When God told Adam not to eat of the tree He set down a law. So when Adam desired something that didn't belong to him he was coveting because to covet means to desire what is not yours

What does that have to do with having sinful flesh? As we are inherently sinful of course we don't know the law of God as we are incapable of understanding its majesty and holiness.

Romans 8: 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The word carnal is translated from a Greek word meaning:

[*StrongsGreek*]
04561
σάρξ sárx, sarx
probably from the base of 4563;
flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e. (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred), or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specially), a human being (as such):--carnal(-ly, + -ly minded), flesh(-ly).

So the carnal mind is that which is controlled by our sinful flesh.

Also explain how the first person born into this world became a murderer when his parents did nothing more than eat fruit from a tree God had forbidden them to eat from if we don't have a fallen nature urging us to do evil. Cain sinned far more grievously than either of his parents.

 

[Gary K]

Thank the Lord for His word. We know in part and prophesy in part. (1 Cor. 13:9)
But His words we believe. And I saw the 24 passages all of which are to be believed.

One thing is a win/win situation. That is when verses are quoted to be sure to
enjoy the sheer taste of God's sweet word for nourishment.

On my to-do list is to go carefully through Ezekiel around that section of chapter 18 to
get a sense of what was going on.

In the progressive and gradual unfolding of God's economy
Ezekiel would have to sit at the feet of the Apostle Paul for further
wisdom and revelation of what full in the Messiah really salvation is all about.

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel, that is, the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which has been kept in silence in the times of the ages

But has now been manifested, and through the prophetic writings, according to the command of the eternal God, has been made known to all the Gentiles for the obedience of faith; (Rom. 16:25,26)

When God reveals truth it is eternal, He never reveals anything to us without a purpose in mind. He revealed chapter 18 to Ezekiel because He knew what deceptions of the devil were coming down the pike. The entire Bible is built upon God revealing truth to us to combat the devil's deceptions as he is the father of lies. God has thought this out from the beginning sin as to how to overcome the devil in those who love truth. It proves His omniscience and unfathomable love for all humanity.

 

[One God and Father of All]

I think Adam was created perfect as to his human nature, and yet imperfect as to his wisdom, which would only be gained the hard way, by experience, according to God's perfect wisdom and plan. In this way Adam would be guided by grace, yet remain free in will, to choose good or evil, obedience or disobedience. He should, like the prodigal, eventually come back home at the end, after experiencing life in the pigsty. He needs to learn that his plan, of autonomy from God-backfired in regard to giving him any more life, fulfillment, happiness, integrity, etc. That's what we're all here to learn now, being one with Adam and his Fall. We're here to learn how and why love of God and neighbor is of supreme, incomparable value, a love that He's definitively shown us first. Then we'd all obey, willingly.

Meanwhile, our real state of "falleness" is simply our alienation from God, lost, without hope of finding and returning to Him on our own. Man was made for communion with God. Man is lost, sick, dead, crippled, and existing in a state of injustice, to the extent that he's separated from Him. And injustice, sin, is inevitable without that vital union.

Not sure what you mean he was created perfect as to his human nature. It has already been established by the OP that the flesh of man is sinful. In other words, man‘s nature, which is flesh nature, is sinful. If Adam was of the same flesh nature as we have now, it is easy to see why he sinned. He was drawn away and enticed by his own desire as James says. If Adam could be drawn away and enticed by his own fleshly desire it would cause him to sin. Which he did sin. Even the scripture tells us that Eve, who was flesh of his flesh, desired the fruit because it was pleasant to the eye and good for food “and DESIRED to make one wise.

 

[B Griffin]

Adam’s children are of the same nature as he. If Adam’s nature became sinful after he sinned then he wouldn’t have sinned in the first place.

Interesting point. Never thought about it before. I'll need to pray about it while I ponder it more. But interesting concept.

 

[One God and Father of All]

What does that have to do with having sinful flesh? As we are inherently sinful of course we don't know the law of God as we are incapable of understanding its majesty and holiness.

Romans 8: 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The word carnal is translated from a Greek word meaning:

[*StrongsGreek*]
04561
σάρξ sárx, sarx
probably from the base of 4563;
flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e. (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred), or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specially), a human being (as such):--carnal(-ly, + -ly minded), flesh(-ly).

So the carnal mind is that which is controlled by our sinful flesh.

Also explain how the first person born into this world became a murderer when his parents did nothing more than eat fruit from a tree God had forbidden them to eat from if we don't have a fallen nature urging us to do evil. Cain sinned far more grievously than either of his parents.

Well, I don’t think Cain was the first person born into this world because when he was cast out he married his sister.
Anyway, Adam’s sinned caused death to all human beings. “ For as sin entered the world by one man, so death passed to all men, for in whom all sinned.”
Adam sinned because of his fleshly nature, and since we all share that same fleshly nature, that nature has been condemned. The purpose of the resurrection is to change the human fleshly nature to the divine nature.

 

[One God and Father of All]

Interesting point. Never thought about it before. I'll need to pray about it while I ponder it more. But interesting concept.

You may be interested in what Paul says of the natural man made of dust as opposed to the man born of the spirit.

 

[oikonomia]

Adam sinned because of his fleshly nature, and since we all share that same fleshly nature, that nature has been condemned. The purpose of the resurrection is to change the human fleshly nature to the divine nature.

If Adam had a fleshly nature in the sinful sense God would not have pronounced His creation "very good". (Gen. 1:31)

And God saw everything that He had made, and indeed, it was very good.
And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

So we understand out of the creating hand of God the first man came -
Very good,
Innocent,
Neutral

That is the neutral man with a free choosing will
was inbetween God represented by "the tree of life" and Satan represented by
"the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

Latter at the time of the great flood God pronounced that mankind had become flesh in that fallen evil sense.

And Jehovah said, My Spirit will not strive with man forever,
for he indeed is flesh; so his days will be one hundred twenty years. (Gen. 6:3)

Adam set in motion the downward decline of corruption ruining the "very good" creation of man
into the monsterious expression of his master Satan. Mankind hit rock bottom of immoralty of the flesh when judgment came.

And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And Jehovah repented that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him in His heart. (Gen. 6:5,6)

And God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth.
And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and now I am about to destroy them with the earth. (Gen. 6:12,13)

 

[oikonomia]

Well, I don’t think Cain was the first person born into this world because when he was cast out he married his sister.

He couldn't have married a younger sister?

The significance of the account of Cain's murder of Abel shows what
man could do when not listening to his conscience.

There was no human government yet.
Adam rejected the government of God which he was directly under.
He chose what he thought was independence.

Then began the age of true libertarian freedom. Each man was to live only by his conscience.
Cain from his jealousy of God's approval of Abel's worship murdered his brother.
He then had absolutely no sense of guilt in his conscience for it or that he had any responsibility to his fellow man.
Then Jehovah said to Cain, Where is Abel your brother? And he said, I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper? (Gen. 4:9)

His only care was that his just punishment was unbearable.
And Cain said to Jehovah, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
Now You have driven me out this day from the face of the ground, and from Your face I will be hidden; and I will be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me. (Gen. 4:13,14)

But it was still the trial age of libertarian anarchy (in a well intended sense) - everybody was to be governed solely by thier conscience.

And Jehovah said to him, Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him sevenfold. And Jehovah put a mark on Cain, so that anyone who found him would not strike him. (v.15)

 

[Gary K]

Well, I don’t think Cain was the first person born into this world because when he was cast out he married his sister.
Anyway, Adam’s sinned caused death to all human beings. “ For as sin entered the world by one man, so death passed to all men, for in whom all sinned.”
Adam sinned because of his fleshly nature, and since we all share that same fleshly nature, that nature has been condemned. The purpose of the resurrection is to change the human fleshly nature to the divine nature.

So Cain couldn't have had younger sisters?

Your belief makes God the author of sin as He created man imperfectly. He created us to sin. I disagree with that emphatically.

Jesus was born without our sinful flesh. He was tempted in all points as we are yet without sin. How can there things be? He was tempted in the wilderness after going 40 days without food by the devil, His temptation was to turn stones into bread. Have you ever been tempted to turn stones into bread? I never have. So why was that a temptation to Jesus? He is capable of doing things we cannot do. His temptation was to go it alone just like our temptations. The devil wants us to fight sin on our own as that guarantees him we will sin. Unless we rely on God for the power to overcome sin we lose every time.

There are things we cannot understand until we get to heaven. We just aren't smart enough to understand what an infinite God can do. If you want to believe you're as smart as God go ahead but I would say that's an infinitely large mistake.

 

[fhansen]

Not sure what you mean he was created perfect as to his human nature. It has already been established by the OP that the flesh of man is sinful. In other words, man‘s nature, which is flesh nature, is sinful. If Adam was of the same flesh nature as we have now, it is easy to see why he sinned. He was drawn away and enticed by his own desire as James says. If Adam could be drawn away and enticed by his own fleshly desire it would cause him to sin. Which he did sin. Even the scripture tells us that Eve, who was flesh of his flesh, desired the fruit because it was pleasant to the eye and good for food “and DESIRED to make one wise.

God created everything good. And while God, alone, is perfect in the infinite and absolute sense, all created beings have their own nature which is common to their species, and is "perfect" for that being's intended purpose. We share our human nature with Adam, and it didn't change with the Fall.

There's nothing innately wrong with the "flesh", and God commands nothing which isn't possible to obey. The problem is when human flesh is on its own, apart from the divine, which man is not meant to be apart from. Adam thought otherwise, but, "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

So Jesus came to reconcile man with God in order to restore that union, a union which He, as the only begotten Son of God, experienced by virtue of who He is and which we were created to experience by virtue of God's plan for man, who we are. Christ is our model.

Adam, our former model, didn't need to be a sinner first but, as a created being, he already inherently lacked the absolute perfection of God, meaning that he could err, he could choose foolishly, abusing the good gift of free will that is exclusive to men and angels. And that's what he did.

By his act of disobedience his world changed, no longer aligned with and subservient to God in the spiritual and moral sphere. Adam had become his own "god" for all practical purposes, in control of determining morality for himself, not answerable to God. And from there, from that position, sin would flourish in his brave new world where mans will reigns.

 

[Gary K]

God created everything good. And while God, alone, is perfect in the infinite and absolute sense, all created beings have their own nature which is common to their species, and is "perfect" for that being's intended purpose. We share our human nature with Adam, and it didn't change with the Fall.

There's nothing innately wrong with the "flesh", and God commands nothing which isn't possible to obey. The problem is when human flesh is on its own, apart from the divine, which man is not meant to be apart from. Adam thought otherwise, but, "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

So Jesus came to reconcile man with God in order to restore that union, a union which He, as the only begotten Son of God, experienced by virtue of who He is and which we were created to experience by virtue of God's plan for man, who we are. Christ is our model.

Adam, our former model, didn't need to be a sinner first but, as a created being, he already inherently lacked the absolute perfection of God, meaning that he could err, he could choose foolishly, abusing the good gift of free will that is exclusive to men and angels. And that's what he did.

By his act of disobedience his world changed, no longer aligned with and subservient to God in the spiritual and moral sphere. Adam had become his own "god" for all practical purposes, in control of determining morality for himself, not answerable to God. And from there, from that position, sin would flourish in his brave new world where mans will reigns.

How do you then explain the angels that sinned in the very presence of God. Besides that you are ignoring 24 passages of scripture from Paul alone.

 

[oikonomia]

God created everything good. And while God, alone, is perfect in the infinite and absolute sense, all created beings have their own nature which is common to their species, and is "perfect" for that being's intended purpose. We share our human nature with Adam, and it didn't change with the Fall.

I don't know why you don't see that sin [singular] as a nature,
entered into the world and damaged the God made humanity.

You have an unfallen man - Adam, before he ate of the forbidden fruit.
Then you have the fallen man - Adam, after he disobeyed God and ate.

The nature of sin in the flesh entered the world not through the one Creator God.
It entered through the disobedience of one man - Adam.

Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, (Rom. 5:12a)

This is something of a law in the members of our body and "dwells" in man.

Now then it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me.
For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, nothing good dwells;
for to will is present with me, but to work out the good is not. (Rom. 7:17,18)

But I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind
and making me a captive to the law of sin which is in my members.
Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death? (.vs. 23,24)

Can't you feel the kindof "itchy" feeling in your members of your body urging you
to use them for sinning?

There's nothing innately wrong with the "flesh", and God commands nothing which isn't possible to obey. The problem is when human flesh is on its own, apart from the divine, which man is not meant to be apart from. Adam thought otherwise, but, "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

So man from Adam's fall was sent out and away from the presence of God and from the right to
the tree of life which in his neutral state he had not yet eaten.

Fallen man was "alienated from the life of God". (Eph. 4:18)
The fallen man "estranged [or alienated]" not only from God from "the life of God"
has the Satanic spirit of the air operating in him making him by nature children of God's wrath.

In which you once walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience;
Among whom we also all conducted ourselves once in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest; (Eph. 2;2,3)

I said there was an unfallen nature in Adam.
And after his disobedience a sin nature in Adam.

When the Son of God incarnated to be a man He came in the likeness of the fallen man.
He had not the sin in the flesh. But He came in the likeness of that damaged man.

God, sending His own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh, (Rom. 8:3)

Did you notice that? It says "the flesh of sin".

God created a body for Adam. God did not create "the flesh of sin" for Adam.
That Adam received when he ate the forbidden fruit. Sin entered the world FIRST through Adam right into his transmuted body into
the flesh of sin. It passed on to all mankind.

Jesus came in the likeness of the man with the "flesh of sin" yet without sin.

So Jesus came to reconcile man with God in order to restore that union, a union which He, as the only begotten Son of God, experienced by virtue of who He is and which we were created to experience by virtue of God's plan for man, who we are. Christ is our model.

Why doesn't the Gospel of John merely repeat that Jesus is our "model" then?
Now I agree that Jesus is a model. But more so He can be imparted INTO man as divine ZOE life.
That is the very life of God from which we were alienated (Eph. 4:18) now through Christ can come INTO us.

In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. (John 1:4)
John did not just say "in Him we have a model."

I have come that they may have life and may have it abundantly. (John 10:10)
You see He did not come merely to give us an outward model to imitate - not without His very life within.

But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ,
the Son of God, and that believing, you may have life in His name. (John 20:31)

He Himself with His Father come as the divine "We" to live within and make an abode within His lovers.
Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him. (John 14:23)

Adam, our former model, didn't need to be a sinner first but, as a created being, he already inherently lacked the absolute perfection of God, meaning that he could err, he could choose foolishly, abusing the good gift of free will that is exclusive to men and angels. And that's what he did.

He not only disobeyed and committed that transgression. He ate something which somehow joined him to Satan.
And through this sin in the flesh entered into the world first into Adam and passed on to all his descendents - all mankind.

You see it says this happened through the disobedience "the body of sin" (Rom. 6:6)
and "the body of this death" (Rom. 7:24) came about for all mankind.

By his act of disobedience his world changed,

On this we agree.

no longer aligned with and subservient to God in the spiritual and moral sphere.

This is true.
But it is the warring of the sin in the flesh against the soul which commenced for all men after Adam ate.
Beloved, I entreat you as strangers and sojourners to abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul, (1 Pet. 2;11)

Adam had become his own "god" for all practical purposes,

True. With Satan operating in him and a wretched body of this death.

in control of determining morality for himself, not answerable to God. And from there, from that position, sin would flourish in his brave new world where mans will reigns.

Adam gained the knowledge of good and evil.
Adam lost the power to perform the good that he knows.
Adam lost the power to resist the evil that he knows.

This was the emmergence of something called "the old man".
And by the power of being immersed into Christ (not just as ritual) the killing power of Christ's death
can terminate in us "the old man." Something needs to be killed off as to its influence.

Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be annulled, that we should no longer serve sin as slaves; (Rom. 6:6)

We who have died to sin, how shall we still live in it?
Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized
into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? (Rom. 6:2b-3)

 

[fhansen]

How do you then explain the angels that sinned in the very presence of God. Besides that you are ignoring 24 passages of scripture from Paul alone.

Adam sinned in the presence of God. If God made them to be sinners then He's to blame for sin, not them. That would sort of render the whole concept of good and evil null and void.

 

[fhansen]

Can't you feel the kindof "itchy" feeling in your members of your body urging you
to use them for sinning?

That's a matter of the will, no longer subject to God. It's generally accepted that man lost self-control at the Fall. Why? Because he was now his own authority-he was the controller and that means he's now "controlled" by a weak and vacillating authority, himself: the creature rather than the Creator. Man is absolutely dependent on grace, on God, to sustain his moral integrity. The flesh is just a bundle of appetites, all appealing to the will to be fulfilled, while tempted by the world and others and satan to fulfill those appetites in this way or that with the promise of a true satisfaction that never quite arrives. But we keep trying, trying to satisfy an innate desire for happiness-but to do it apart from God. That's all the recipe we need for sin. And, ironically almost, He's the only place that said happiness can be found.

And this is to say that fallen man isn't totally dead or depraved; he's lost, sick, wounded, in need of being found, cured, healed. The image of God still persists even if dimly now, but we see it arise in noble or self-giving acts and relatively humble and virtuous living, showing that the law is written on their hearts even if they're ignorant of it. This is also why, while we cannot possibly save ourselves, the will is not so totally overridden or deadened that, with the help of grace appealing to us, we cannot be prompted to muster a "yes" to God when He calls, even while "no" always remains a possibility as well.

And this also explains why the man risen with Christ isn't perfect either. He still struggles against sin, against the concupiscence or temptations that provoke us to focus on immediate gratification instead of eternal gratification. Until we're perfected in love, presumably not fully until the next life, that struggle continues.

 

[Gary K]

Adam sinned in the presence of God. If God made them to be sinners then He's to blame for sin, not them. That would sort of render the whole concept of good and evil null and void.

Yup. It does. Good and evil do exist and Paul's writings contain 24 passages speaking about our sinful flesh. Can you explain away all 24 verses ?

 

[fhansen]

Yup. It does. Good and evil do exist and Paul's writings contain 24 passages speaking about our sinful flesh. Can you explain away all 24 verses ?

List them if you like and we'll see if I can. Either way, God cannot be the author of evil.