Our built in disposition to sin

[daq]

I asked you to disprove the 24 scripture passages I quoted from Paul on our sinful flesh So why haven't you done it? It's been hours since I made my last post.

No, that is not what you asked. You clearly said at the top of that post:

"So explain how my OP was wrong using the following 24 passages of scripture from Paul."

And of course I answered you accordingly.

I have no need to disprove any of the passages you posted because I never said any of them were wrong. That however does not mean that you yourself have not misapplied them, and if you were using them to support your opening statement in your OP, then you did indeed misapply them.

My position is that Paul does not teach what you stated in the opening comments in your OP at the top of the page on page one of this thread. The burden is on you to prove that statement. You have never done so and you never will because it is a false statement according to the scripture. Just because you make a statement and then post a wall of scripture texts removed from their contexts does not mean you have proven your statement: if your opening statement is doctrinally incorrect then all you have done is to cloak your statement in a wall of scripture quotes that do not actually teach what is in your statement.

 

[daq]

Whether you use the word "overturn" or some other word with negative connotation the fact
is there is a new covenant. God declared it saying the first covenant would be replaced.

Indeed, days are coming, declares Jehovah, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by their hand to bring them out from the land of Egypt,
My covenant which they broke, although I was their Husband, declares Jehovah. (Jer. 31:31,32)

If "not like the covenant which I made " is superceded by " I will make a new covenant" means to you "overturn" so be it.
The old covenant is replaced by the new.

The Bible divides human history up into what we can call dispensations. The most biblical way to recognize four major ones.

From Adam to Moses - Romans 5:14
From Moses to Christ - John 1:17
From the first coming of Christ to His second coming - Acts 3:20,21
From the start of the millennial kingdom to its end - Rev. 20:2-6

There are other ways to think of dispensations. This is the clearest biblical way.
Of course on either side of these four periods is eternity past and eternity future.

When Romans says "death reign from Adam to Moses" I think he is showing that before the nature of sin
was so exposed by the law of Moses, death still demonstrated that it had an effect from Adam.
I am willing to think about some other significance you think "from Adam to Moses" might have.

However, Paul's burden there is to contrast this present time under the new covenant with previous times before it came.

In the new covenant which replaces the old covenant, the reign of death is replaced by another reigning.
That is the reign of those who receive "the abundance of grace". And in that they also receive "the gift of righteousness".
Having these new covenant matters they will now "reign in life" through the new head of a new humanity, the One Jesus Christ.

For if, by the offense of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. (Rom. 5:17)

This kind of accusation I regard as a continuation of your obsession to exalt the law of Moses over the Son of God.
The first covenant became decrepit says the book of Hebrews as it discusses Jeremiah's prophecy.

In saying, A new covenant, He has made the first old.
But that which is becoming old and growing decrepit is near to disappearing. (Hebrews 8:13)

You are still fighting the same battle you fight over Second Corinthians 3.
You hate that the first covenant would had a fading glory.
And here you complain of "overturning" because other NT passages speak of the replacing of the old with the new.

When Jesus was seen on the Mt. of Transfigfuration with Moses and Elijah Peter was very excited.
He wanted to place the three of them on the same level of significance.
The voice the Father forbidded us from regarding Moses and Elijah as on the same level as the Son of God.

And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You are willing, I will make three tents here, one for You and one for Moses and one for Elijah.

While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I have found My delight. Hear Him! (Matt. 17:4,5)

Would you object that what Moses and Elijah represented (the law and the prophets) was superceded by whatever the Son of God says?
Would you complain that the Father was "overturning" the Old Testament figures with the Son of God? So be it.

So you claim "new covenant" status but ignore integral parts of it that are stated in the text from the Prophet? Just because the author of Hebrews does not quote the whole passage does not mean he is cherry-picking. You cannot ignore the background context if indeed you wish to understand. Have I not continually made this point?

Here it is again: the opening statement in the following passage tells you that not only what follows is all related but also what came before in the passage was a dream, and thus, the whole passage is all related, Jer 30:1 -> Jer 31:40 !!!

Jeremiah 30:1 KJV
1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

Jeremiah 31:26-40 KJV
26 Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.
27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

Those who will enter into this covenant in this passage must die for their own iniquity: there is no escaping this fact, it is right there in the text, like it or not. The Apostles of the Master were not cherry-pickers in their writings: we are expected to be "Bereans" and go back to the background context so that we may understand what the Apostles are teaching and speaking about, and the one who refuses to do this invariably ends up concocting his or her own strange new gospel which is not the Gospel.

 

[Gary K]

No, that is not what you asked. You clearly said at the top of that post:

"So explain how my OP was wrong using the following 24 passages of scripture from Paul."

And of course I answered you accordingly.

I have no need to disprove any of the passages you posted because I never said any of them were wrong. That however does not mean that you yourself have not misapplied them, and if you were using them to support your opening statement in your OP, then you did indeed misapply them.

My position is that Paul does not teach what you stated in the opening comments in your OP at the top of the page on page one of this thread. The burden is on you to prove that statement. You have never done so and you never will because it is a false statement according to the scripture. Just because you make a statement and then post a wall of scripture texts removed from their contexts does not mean you have proven your statement: if your opening statement is doctrinally incorrect then all you have done is to cloak your statement in a wall of scripture quotes that do not actually teach what is in your statement.

Then demonstrate from those 24 passages of scripture that I'm wrong about what my OP said.

 

[daq]

Then demonstrate from those 24 passages of scripture that I'm wrong about what my OP said.

Why is it my responsibility to go through all of those passages and attempt to expound them all when you have failed to demonstrate that they teach what is in your OP right at the top of the first page? The burden of proof is on you to actually demonstrate that they teach what you have asserted.

 

[oikonomia]

That is the teaching-doctrine of an old proverb that is denounced and forbidden in the Prophets.

Ezekiel 18:1-4 KJV
1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.

So daq are you saying those who believe Roman 5:12 -
Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned —
are simply repeating the proverb of Ezekiel 18:2 in different words, and they should not do so?

Ezekiel 18:19-23 KJV
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

So daq are you saying that Christians who believe Romans 5:19 -
For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous
should not believe or teach this because they are only repeating in different words the proverb of Ezekial 18:19 with which
God was displeased?

Are you saying that Romans 5:12 and 5:19 are contradictory to this statement ?
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son:

Are you saying that Romans 5:12-19 is opposed to what Yawheh spoke in Ezekiel 18:19-23 ?

And the Torah teaches the same:

Deuteronomy 24:16 KJV
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Are you teaching us that concerning the nature of sinful man it is FAR BETTER to consult Deuteronomy 24 than
to believe and teach Romans 5:12-19 ?

And the false proverb is again spoken against in the context of the Renewed Covenant:
. . .
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

The Testimony of the Meshiah teaches us how to die in the manner that is pleasing to the Father.

Are you teaching that this above displeasing proverb to God is the same as what the Apostle Paul teaches in Romans 5:12-19 allbeit in his different words?

 

[daq]

So daq are you saying those who believe Roman 5:12 -
Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned —
are simply repeating the proverb of Ezekiel 18:2 in different words, and they should not do so?

What is wrong with that? Does it not say "because all have sinned"?
Does it say "because of Adam's sin"? No, it doesn't say that.
And just as the scripture says: the soul that sins shall die.

So daq are you saying that Christians who believe Romans 5:19 -
For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous
should not believe or teach this because they are only repeating in different words the proverb of Ezekial 18:19 with which
God was displeased?

Ezekiel 18:19 says this:

Ezekiel 18:19 KJV
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

What I am saying is that the original sin doctrine is not scriptural according to the proverb in Eze 18:2-3.

Are you saying that Romans 5:12 and 5:19 are contradictory to this statement ?
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son:

Are you saying that Romans 5:12-19 is opposed to what Yawheh spoke in Ezekiel 18:19-23 ?

Of course not.
I am saying that if you think they are contradictory then you do not understand Paul.

Are you teaching us that concerning the nature of sinful man it is FAR BETTER to consult Deuteronomy 24 than
to believe and teach Romans 5:12-19 ?

As I keep saying, the Master teaches you how to die in the manner which is pleasing to the Father. Therefore it is the Testimony of the Master which will resolve your misunderstandings of both Paul and the Torah and the Prophets and the Writings.

Are you teaching that this above displeasing proverb to God is the same as what the Apostle Paul teaches in Romans 5:12-19 allbeit in his different words?

No! have you no ear to hear? It would be your interpretation of Paul's teachings that I would disagree with if indeed you are teaching the original sin doctrine. Is that what you believe? Do you believe and agree with what the OP stated in the very opening lines?

Here it is yet again:

We inherited our sinful nature from Adam and Eve. That means we are sinful right down to the level of our DNA. There is no way we can change that. Paul tells us we have sinful flesh multiple times.

Do you agree with the first three sentences in this short OP opening paragraph?
If you do then I disagree with you, not Paul.

 

[oikonomia]

What is wrong with that? Does it not say "because all have sinned"?
Does it say "because of Adam's sin"? No, it doesn't say that.
And just as the scripture says: the soul that sins shall die.

Could you more directly answer the exact question? Then you can add.
Are those who believe Romans 5:12 simply repeating the displeasing proverb of Ezekiel 18:2 ?
Yes or No please? Then you may add more comment.

Ezekiel 18:19 says this:

Ezekiel 18:19 KJV
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

What I am saying is that the original sin doctrine is not scriptural according to the proverb in Eze 18:2-3.

What about a person who does not even use the phrase "original sin" but simply believes and teaches Romans 5:19?
I personally don't ever use the phrase "original sin". Is my believing and teaching Romans 5:19 teaching the divinely disliked proverb
of Ezekiel 18:19?
Yes or No please.

Maybe you remember what I said awhile ago (I think on a talk with you).
I said more than once that I have found the greatest blessing
is in just saying "Amen!" to whatever the Bible tells us.

I personally am not out to vindicate a certain creed of "original sin." I am believing the words of Romans 5:19.
You see "original sin" may or may not be helpful as a kind of creedal concept depending on how it is elaborated upon.
But the pure word of the Scripture we should believe. Am I right?

For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous. (Rom. 5:19)

Does believing Romans 5:19 make me guilty of reiterating the divinely disliked proverb of Ezekiel 18:19 ?

Do you agree with the first three sentences in this short OP opening paragraph?
If you do then I disagree with you, not Paul.

The first three sentences of the OP here:

1.) We inherited our sinful nature from Adam and Eve.
2.) That means we are sinful right down to the level of our DNA.
3.) There is no way we can change that.

Yes, I agree basically.

The second sentence using the phrase "right down to the level of our DNA" I would take as kind of poetic.
Or at least I claim no scientific understanding of how DNA is effected by Adam's sin.
I think the poster said basically that he didn't know either.

Second caveat: With the cooperation of Christ's salvation we can do something about this dreadful situation.
Apart from Jesus Christ we can do nothing to cure this. We can only arrest it somewhat. We can limit this sin nature a little.
Apart from receiving Christ we have no authority and no power to rid or change ourselves of this sin nature.

I would refer to the Gospel of John's assessment. To those human beings who receive the living and available Son
of God authority to become children of God is granted. This is because of a spiritual BIRTH with the life of God.

This authority is not through anything naturally passed on from ancestors - "not of blood".
This authority is not from anything accomplished by the will power of the fallen man - "not of the will of the flesh."
This authority is not even from the will of the created unfallen humanity - "nor of the will of man."

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name,
Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12,13)

 

[oikonomia]

Creeds and theological formulas may be helpful.
Sometimes they may not be so helpful or produce at least some problems.

But our priority should go with the words of Scripture.

The words of Scripture transcend in importance our creeds.
No creed should be placed above the words of God.

 

[daq]

Could you more directly answer the exact question? Then you can add.

I did answer it. The fact that you do not accept my answer doesn't mean I did not answer it. It clearly says, even in your own version which you quoted, that death passed unto all men because all have sinned. So what does that mean for you? It means that death has likewise passed onto you because you have sinned, not because you inherited a sin nature from Adam: and it is the same for every one of us and all of mankind, for everyone sins.

Are those who believe Romans 5:12 simply repeating the displeasing proverb of Ezekiel 18:2 ?
Yes or No please? Then you may add more comment.

No, those who understand and believe Rom 5:12 are not repeating the proverb because they know that Rom 5:12 is not teaching the original sin doctrine: for as stated, yet again, just now above herein: death passed onto all men because all have sinned.

What about a person who does not even use the phrase "original sin" but simply believes and teaches Romans 5:19?
I personally don't ever use the phrase "original sin". Is my believing and teaching Romans 5:19 teaching the divinely disliked proverb
of Ezekiel 18:19?
Yes or No please.

Judge yourself, O man.

Maybe you remember what I said awhile ago (I think on a talk with you).
I said more than once that I have found the greatest blessing
is in just saying "Amen!" to whatever the Bible tells us.

Tell is not the same as read but you rejected what I said about the difference between Logos and Rhema because it did not comply with your paradigm in the context wherein we discussed those two words. The difference between those two words applies in every context: words have meaning, and when it comes to the scripture, the scripture defines the words employed by the context wherein the words are found and used.

I personally am not out to vindicate a certain creed of "original sin." I am believing the words of Romans 5:19.

Romans 5:19 KJV
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners:
The first man ate of the forbidden fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and he died in the day wherein he ate of it, just as he was warned. You did the same, and you likewise died in the day wherein you ate of it, just as all men do because all men sin. Understand supernal things and walk not according to the flesh and the natural mind of the natural man.

So by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous:
The Testimony of the Meshiah is Spirit and Life, (John 6:63), and thus that Testimony is the new Spirit of the renewed Covenant, and not only that but the Life by the Spirit of Life in Meshiah is the Life from and of the Tree of Life. Understand supernal things and walk not according to the flesh and the natural mind of the natural man.

You see "original sin" may or may not be helpful as a kind of creedal concept depending on how it is elaborated upon.
But the pure word of the Scripture we should believe. Am I right?

The "pure word of the scripture" needs to be studied out and understood before it can actually be believed. If we believe false things about what the scripture teaches then we are not believing what it teaches. This is another reason we are admonished to test or try the spirits, for testimony is spirit. For example, if you have a Bible with a full blown commentary embedded within it on every page, which you apparently do, (from the preachings, teachings, and sermons of witness Lee), then are you truly being taught of Elohim in His Word, in the manner in which that is supposed to be according to the Prophet and the Meshiah who quotes that Prophet in the Gospel? Or is it witness Lee who is guiding you in how to understand the scripture as you read?

For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous. (Rom. 5:19)

Does believing Romans 5:19 make me guilty of reiterating the divinely disliked proverb of Ezekiel 18:19 ?

Already answered. This is now just a repetition of the same things over and over again

The first three sentences of the OP here:

1.) We inherited our sinful nature from Adam and Eve.
2.) That means we are sinful right down to the level of our DNA.
3.) There is no way we can change that.

Yes, I agree basically.

Okay then: but that is indeed the original sin doctrine whether or not you wish to admit. And in my view that essentially puts the blame for the sin nature on Adam rather than the one who does the sinning. How is that any different than the proverb? It's the same as saying, Adam ate the sour grape: his children's teeth are set on edge. That's almost identical to the proverb, and that doctrine by way of the proverb is strictly forbidden in both of the Prophets which I quoted, and one of them even includes it in the new-renewed covenant passage as shown.

The second sentence using the phrase "right down to the level of our DNA" I would take as kind of poetic.
Or at least I claim no scientific understanding of how DNA is effected by Adam's sin.
I think the poster said basically that he didn't know either.

Either way we look at the statement it is an assertion that has not been proven and will not be proven.

Second caveat: With the cooperation of Christ's salvation we can do something about this dreadful situation.
Apart from Jesus Christ we can do nothing to cure this. We can only arrest it somewhat. We can limit this sin nature a little.
Apart from receiving Christ we have no authority and no power to rid or change ourselves of this sin nature.

But in Meshiah we can do all things that are pleasing to the Father, which includes walking uprightly in His Torah-Instruction, for just as Paul says, the Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14). This is what your doctrines ultimate negate, just as many do say that no one can "keep the Law", and thus they find a need to set it aside, nullify it, abolish it, or however you prefer to put it.

I would refer to the Gospel of John's assessment. To those human beings who receive the living and available Son
of God authority to become children of God is granted. This is because of a spiritual BIRTH with the life of God.

This authority is not through anything naturally passed on from ancestors - "not of blood".
This authority is not from anything accomplished by the will power of the fallen man - "not of the will of the flesh."
This authority is not even from the will of the created unfallen humanity - "nor of the will of man."

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name,
Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12,13)

And your final statements here also help to prove that a sin nature is also not inherited from man. Elohim did not give a spirit to the first man formed of dust from the adamah in Gen 2:7. Elohim reserves of the Spirit until His appointed time because He seeks an Elohim seed. Therefore, before one is born from above, the spirit in man is an acquired spirit, the spirit of the world which the man acquires along his way in early life, and the man receives that spirit of the world when he first willfully sins and eats of the forbidden fruit, and he dies.

 

[oikonomia]

I did answer it. The fact that you do not accept my answer doesn't mean I did not answer it. It clearly says, even in your own version which you quoted, that death passed unto all men because all have sinned. So what does that mean for you?

Romans 5:12 means two things to me.
Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned —

1.) Sin entered the world through one man.
2.) death passed on to men because all have sinned

If someone asks me if sin entered into the world through every man, I would say "through one man sin entered into the world."
If someone asks me why do people die I would say "death passed on to all men because all have sinned."

If someone pressed me about whether this proves the doctrine of "original sin" or not I would say that I don't know.
What really interests me is how we get the remedy, the salvation, the rescue, and the deliverance from this matter.

Adam was a one man head over the old damaged sinful race.
Christ is the one man head over the new race joined with Him and indwelt with One RIghteous God-man who overcomes sin in us.

It means that death has likewise passed onto you because you have sinned, not because you inherited a sin nature from Adam: and it is the same for every one of us and all of mankind, for everyone sins.

For certain I have sinned.
For certain I will die unless raptured and transfigured alive as some must be.
For certain I am responsible for my individual sins before God and need forgiveness and deliverance.

If I say that I have no sin natureI would be self deceived according to the Word of God.
If we say that we do not have sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)

All have sinned for sure. All die for sure. Even stillborn infants die. Aborted babies die of which it is difficult for me
to identify what transgression they have committed. At face value I completely receive God's word of Romans 5:12 though aspects of it
are hard for me to fully comprehend. I don't care that much if it concurs or not with "original sin" as some elaborate on that creed.

I seek to be Christ centered more than "original sin" centered.
Christ frees from the guilt of sin. Christ frees from the power of sin.

No, those who understand and believe Rom 5:12 are not repeating the proverb because they know that Rom 5:12 is not teaching the original sin doctrine: for as stated, yet again, just now above herein: death passed onto all men because all have sinned.

Romans 5:12 is teaching both that sin as a nature entered into the world through one man.
If the apostle mean to say "sin entered into the world through every man" Paul would have written that.
So I take the two revelations without argument.
Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned —

 

[oikonomia]

Judge yourself, O man.

You have no problem judging others. I don't know why you make sure you don't now.
Romans chapter five is about how sin and death entered into the world.

In Ezekiel God rebukes a excusing proverb the Israelites were using. And he encourages them
to keep His statutes. If he walks in My statutes and keeps My ordinances to do truth — he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord Jehovah. (v.9)

At that stage of the progressive unvieling of His purpose and salvation that was an entirely appropriate divine instruction.
Latter in the revelation comes the Lord Jesus and His apostles to speaking of the nature of sin and death and
how the Son of God saves from its guilt and power for His eternal purpose.

Individual sinners are always responsible to God. And believing Romans 5:12 is not absolving one's self from the need for Christ's work.
A critic of "original sin" making a case that this is Christians trying to absolve themselves from responsibillty is a caricature, a strawman.

Again First John not only says we are self deceived to say we have no sin nature.
If we say that we do not have sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)

And it says we make God a liar if we say we have not sinned or are not accountable to God.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. (v.10)

I have a sin nature.
I am not unresponsible to the fact that I have committed individual sins.

Any argument that I uphold a theological creedal formula called "Original Sin" because I want to excuse my sins
or use it as a rationale to avoid obeying God is a strawman complaint- easy to knock down by the arguer.

Why do all men die? Because all have sinned.
How many men are responsible for the entrance of sin into the world?
One man caused sin to enter into the world.

Let's get to the salvation part. We can be constituted righteous through the one man Jesus Christ.
If someone insists on a concept of "original sin" I will reply with "original righteousness!" too.

For if, by the offense of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. (Rom. 5:17)

Romans 5:19 KJV
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners:
The first man ate of the forbidden fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and he died in the day wherein he ate of it, just as he was warned. You did the same, and you likewise died in the day wherein you ate of it, just as all men do because all men sin. Understand supernal things and walk not according to the flesh and the natural mind of the natural man.

Of course today the tree of life is for us the Lord Jesus.
We should walk turning to Him who became to live in man as "a life giving Spirit". (1 Cor. 15:45)

He is the life, the bread of life, the resurrection and the life. In Him is life. And He came that we might
have life and have it abundantly. He is the water of life as a gushing spring within the regenerated man's spirit.

And no law of God was given that could do what He does - give divine life.
For if a law had been given which was able to give life, righteousness would have indeed been of law. (Gal. 3:21c)

And the giving of His divine life is counter the sinning nature man is born with.
That is why John says the SEED, the divine SEED implanted in man brings a sin nature overcoming life of victory.

Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God. (1 John 3:9)

So utmost attention should be given to receiving Jesus as the SEED of God's life and growing that SEED. Then its influence
will spread and develope and mature in the sons of Adam overcoming the nature of sin they were born with.

So by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous:
The Testimony of the Meshiah is Spirit and Life, (John 6:63), and thus that Testimony is the new Spirit of the renewed Covenant,

Where does the Bible say that the new covenant is the renewal of the first covenant?

And John 6:63 says the words that He speaks to us are Spirit and are life.
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Peter confirmed saying Jesus had the words of life.
Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life, (v.68)

Of course Jesus's whole life was the testimony of divine life in a man.
But here it is His sayings, His words which are an issue.
Many therefore of His disciples, when they heard this, said, This word is hard; who can hear it? (v.60)

So Christians should let the word of Christ dwell in them richly. (Col. 3:16)
The entire Bible taken in spirit is the word of Christ.

 

[oikonomia]

The "pure word of the scripture" needs to be studied out and understood before it can actually be believed.

The undersanding is deeper and deeper as experience deepens.
A life can be changed by the word of God even if one's understanding is not yet that thorough.
If course we should want to understand well and not misunderstand.

I would not claim that there is nothing else in Romans 5 through 8 for me to understand deeper.
I intend to learn more and more as I grow and am built up in His body more and more.

We apprehend with all the saints the vast dimensions of Christ's love.

May be full of strength to apprehend with all the saints what the breadth and length and height and depth are
And to know the knowledge-surpassing love of Christ, that you may be filled unto all the fullness of God. (Eph.3:18,19)

And that includes seeing Christ in all the Bible including Ezekiel, Jeremiah, or Exodus.
From Genesis to Revelation the major revelation is Christ and the church.

If we believe false things about what the scripture teaches then we are not believing what it teaches.

It is false to accuse those of believing Romans chapter five contrasting Adam and Christ as using
"Original Sin" to absolve themselves from responsibility.

Other than comedian Flip Wilson with his joke "The Devil made me do that!" I have never
heard a Christian use "Sin intered the world through one man" as an rationale not to need personal redemption in Christ.

I never heard any interpretation of Romans excusing sinners from the need to obey God.
I think you have a false alarm going.

Now I must skip down to the bottom and correct what you say here:

This is another reason we are admonished to test or try the spirits, for testimony is spirit. For example, if you have a Bible with a full blown commentary embedded within it on every page, which you apparently do, (from the preachings, teachings, and sermons of witness Lee), then are you truly being taught of Elohim in His Word, in the manner in which that is supposed to be according to the Prophet and the Meshiah who quotes that Prophet in the Gospel? Or is it witness Lee who is guiding you in how to understand the scripture as you read?

Any kind of guilt trip you try to make because I have benefitted from Witness Lee's life example and teaching
will be a waste of your breath.

The Lord said - Do not judge according to appearance, but judge the righteous judgment. (John 7:24)

There is no reason for general suspicion simply because a man has many writings or a life study Bible with many of his comments.
Witness Lee had the right to place helpful notes into a Bible just as much as Scoffield or McAurthor or Ryrie or any number of
servants of God who have done so or enthusiastic students of his have done so.

Witness Lee did not do anything that you yourself don't come here to do all the time.
That is help people to know better what is there in the Bible.

What did Lee do which you do not try to do, except he showed men as well as taught them? And he had
longer to do it.

Moving from baseless suspicion to real issues then -

And your final statements here also help to prove that a sin nature is also not inherited from man. Elohim did not give a spirit to the first man formed of dust from the adamah in Gen 2:7. Elohim reserves of the Spirit until His appointed time because He seeks an Elohim seed. Therefore, before one is born from above, the spirit in man is an acquired spirit, the spirit of the world which the man acquires along his way in early life, and the man receives that spirit of the world when he first willfully sins and eats of the forbidden fruit, and he dies.

Rather the Bible says that God breathed into man that which became the spirit of man.
it was not the Holy Spirit. It was not God Himself. But it was very close to God. And as a result
of the spirit or breath of God coming into the nostrils of man "man became a living soul."

Jehovah God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul. (Gen.2:7)

When the spirit and the body came together the result was man became a living soul.
So man was created with a human spirit, a human soul, and a human body.

Zechariah 12:1 says God forms the spirit of man within him just as sure as He stretched forth the universe and laid the foundation of the earth.

The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel. Thus declares Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundations of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him, (Zech. 12:1)

The human spirit God gave man is "the lamp of the Lord" seaching all his other inward parts.
The spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah, / Searching all the innermost parts of the inner being. (Prov. 20:27)

The human spirit is also something from God as breath which gives man understanding.
But there is a spirit in man, / And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding. (Job 32:8)

So this part of man was damaged and became deadened or "comatose" in Adam's fall.
It is in need of enlivening by the new birth.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)
The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God. (Rom. 8:16)
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit.(1 Cor. 6:17)

So the deadened spirit needs regeneration.
The damaged soul needs transformation.
And the sin filled fallen body needs transfiguration.

The statement - Elohim did not give a spirit to the first man formed of dust from the adamah in Gen 2:7
is manifestly incorrect. He did not create man with the indwelling Spirit of God. But the human spirit God
gave to man is very close to God Himself. It is like an anntena designed for man to communicate with God.

Jehovah God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul. (Gen.2:7)

 

[oikonomia]

 

[oikonomia]

 

[daq]

Romans 5:12 means two things to me.
Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned —

1.) Sin entered the world through one man.
2.) death passed on to men because all have sinned

If someone asks me if sin entered into the world through every man, I would say "through one man sin entered into the world."
If someone asks me why do people die I would say "death passed on to all men because all have sinned."

If someone pressed me about whether this proves the doctrine of "original sin" or not I would say that I don't know.
What really interests me is how we get the remedy, the salvation, the rescue, and the deliverance from this matter.

Adam was a one man head over the old damaged sinful race.
Christ is the one man head over the new race joined with Him and indwelt with One RIghteous God-man who overcomes sin in us.


For certain I have sinned.
For certain I will die unless raptured and transfigured alive as some must be.
For certain I am responsible for my individual sins before God and need forgiveness and deliverance.

If I say that I have no sin natureI would be self deceived according to the Word of God.
If we say that we do not have sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)

All have sinned for sure. All die for sure. Even stillborn infants die. Aborted babies die of which it is difficult for me
to identify what transgression they have committed. At face value I completely receive God's word of Romans 5:12 though aspects of it
are hard for me to fully comprehend. I don't care that much if it concurs or not with "original sin" as some elaborate on that creed.

I seek to be Christ centered more than "original sin" centered.
Christ frees from the guilt of sin. Christ frees from the power of sin.


Romans 5:12 is teaching both that sin as a nature entered into the world through one man.
If the apostle mean to say "sin entered into the world through every man" Paul would have written that.
So I take the two revelations without argument.
Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned —

Sorry but that's just not a common sense argument. Sin cannot have entered into the world through all men because all men were not the first man to sin. Were you there in the beginning? Were you the first man? Of course not, so sin did not enter the world through you, it entered into the world through one man, the first man who transgressed, which is yet another reason why the original sin doctrine is in error: for some who hold that doctrine even try to say that all mankind were in the loins of the first man when he sinned. But Paul here says that sin entered the world through one man, not that all of us were there with the first man when he sinned, otherwise sin would have entered into the world through all of us at the same moment in time with the first man when he himself sinned with mankind in his loins. Every little technicality like this shows even more and more so that the original sin doctrine is errant.

 

[daq]

You have no problem judging others. I don't know why you make sure you don't now.
Romans chapter five is about how sin and death entered into the world.

You asked me to judge you. My response was a vague reference to scripture.

Luke 12:13-14 KJV
13 And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me.
14 And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?

Or I can read it like so: Who made me judge or apportioner over you, O man?

Basically my response to your request for me to judge you was that you should judge yourself, (O man), for it isn't my place. And instead you say that I have no problem judging people. Quite typical.

 

[daq]

The undersanding is deeper and deeper as experience deepens.
A life can be changed by the word of God even if one's understanding is not yet that thorough.
If course we should want to understand well and not misunderstand.

I would not claim that there is nothing else in Romans 5 through 8 for me to understand deeper.
I intend to learn more and more as I grow and am built up in His body more and more.

We apprehend with all the saints the vast dimensions of Christ's love.

May be full of strength to apprehend with all the saints what the breadth and length and height and depth are
And to know the knowledge-surpassing love of Christ, that you may be filled unto all the fullness of God. (Eph.3:18,19)

And that includes seeing Christ in all the Bible including Ezekiel, Jeremiah, or Exodus.
From Genesis to Revelation the major revelation is Christ and the church.

It is false to accuse those of believing Romans chapter five contrasting Adam and Christ as using
"Original Sin" to absolve themselves from responsibility.

Other than comedian Flip Wilson with his joke "The Devil made me do that!" I have never
heard a Christian use "Sin intered the world through one man" as an rationale not to need personal redemption in Christ.

I never heard any interpretation of Romans excusing sinners from the need to obey God.
I think you have a false alarm going.

Now I must skip down to the bottom and correct what you say here:


Any kind of guilt trip you try to make because I have benefitted from Witness Lee's life example and teaching
will be a waste of your breath.

The Lord said - Do not judge according to appearance, but judge the righteous judgment. (John 7:24)

There is no reason for general suspicion simply because a man has many writings or a life study Bible with many of his comments.
Witness Lee had the right to place helpful notes into a Bible just as much as Scoffield or McAurthor or Ryrie or any number of
servants of God who have done so or enthusiastic students of his have done so.

Witness Lee did not do anything that you yourself don't come here to do all the time.
That is help people to know better what is there in the Bible.

What did Lee do which you do not try to do, except he showed men as well as taught them? And he had
longer to do it.

Moving from baseless suspicion to real issues then -


Rather the Bible says that God breathed into man that which became the spirit of man.
it was not the Holy Spirit. It was not God Himself. But it was very close to God. And as a result
of the spirit or breath of God coming into the nostrils of man "man became a living soul."

Jehovah God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul. (Gen.2:7)

When the spirit and the body came together the result was man became a living soul.
So man was created with a human spirit, a human soul, and a human body.

Zechariah 12:1 says God forms the spirit of man within him just as sure as He stretched forth the universe and laid the foundation of the earth.

The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel. Thus declares Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundations of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him, (Zech. 12:1)

The human spirit God gave man is "the lamp of the Lord" seaching all his other inward parts.
The spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah, / Searching all the innermost parts of the inner being. (Prov. 20:27)

The human spirit is also something from God as breath which gives man understanding.
But there is a spirit in man, / And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding. (Job 32:8)

So this part of man was damaged and became deadened or "comatose" in Adam's fall.
It is in need of enlivening by the new birth.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)
The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God. (Rom. 8:16)
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit.(1 Cor. 6:17)

So the deadened spirit needs regeneration.
The damaged soul needs transformation.
And the sin filled fallen body needs transfiguration.

The statement - Elohim did not give a spirit to the first man formed of dust from the adamah in Gen 2:7
is manifestly incorrect. He did not create man with the indwelling Spirit of God. But the human spirit God
gave to man is very close to God Himself. It is like an anntena designed for man to communicate with God.

Jehovah God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul. (Gen.2:7)

It isn't me who is making all of the accusations here. Moreover what I said to you about witness Lee and the commentary in your Bible was apparently true or you would not likely have reacted as you have. The things I have learned from the scripture are not things taught to me by men and their commentaries, sorry if that offends you, but I only said what I did because I do believe witness Lee's commentary is erroneous from what I have seen, and you yourself are continually posting those beliefs in much of your discourse on the board. It isn't judging you to tell you what I believe about your doctrine and what I believe to be the errors of your teacher or teachers, but that's why I put it the way I did from the Testimony of the Master and not my own words.

John 6:45 KJV
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. [Isa 54:13, Jer 31:34] Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Hearing and learning from the Father is hearing and learning from His Torah, Prophets, and Writings: our schoolmaster unto Meshiah, and our tutors and governors, until the time appointed of the Father. If therefore one is disregarding the Torah, and likewise the Prophets which I quoted in my first post on page one, how can such a one be truly hearing and learning from the Father so as to come to the Son?

 

[oikonomia]

Sorry but that's just not a common sense argument. Sin cannot have entered into the world through all men because all men were not the first man to sin.

Sin as a nature entered the world through one man.
. . . through one man sin entered into the world, (Rom. 5:12a)

Romans 1-3 proves that all have committed sins.
Romans 5 defines sinners as to why they commit individual sins - because they are descendents of Adam.

Whether that passes as "common sense" or not is not as important that it is the revelation of God.

Were you there in the beginning?

I understand your perplexity. But the same principle Paul teaches works FOR us in Christ - the second man.
. . . for if by the offense of the one the many died, much more the grace of God and the free gift in grace of the one man Jesus Christ have abounded to the many. (Rom. 5:15b)

The same mysterious principle which brings us untold sorry is reversed in unspeakable joy in the antitype - Christ the second man.
For if, by the offense of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. (v.17)

We were born from Adam and from Adam inherited a constitution - nature called sin [singular].
Much more, praise God, we can inherit in Christ a nature of righteousness.

Paul wants us to know that Adam was a type of the coming One.
But death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of Adam’s transgression, who is a type of Him who was to come. (v.14)

I was also in Christ dying with Him, being buried with Him, and rising from the dead with Him.
I thank God for my limited mind and for what you call "common sense."
But my "common sense" takes a back seat to the revelation of God and the words of the Holy Bible.

Were you the first man?

The first man included me and ao other humans.

More, importantly, superabundantly more than me being in the type of Him who was to come,
I am completely identified with the antitype Christ.
This second man is the Lord from heaven. And He became in me a powerful life giving Spirit.
"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45b)

So I am a forgiven sinner free from the guilt of sin.
And I am a freed sinner free from the power of the sin nature. That is pending I do not nullify the grace given the saved.

These blessings are secured by faith. They become real in my daily walk through faith and
learning to turn to the spirit where the Spirit of Christ is giving divine life. This is developed in Romans chapter 8.

One thing is certain. The definition of a sinner is one who has been born from the first man - Adam.
The proof of everyone being a sinner is in the individual sins all have committed.

Romans chapter 1 - 3 deal with the proof that all have sinned.
Romans chapter 5 deals with the definition of a sinner - someone born from Adam.
Romans chapter 6 deals with how even Christ's death is a freeing power from the nature of sin.
Romans chapter 7 deals with a description of how this sin nature operates in the fallen body received from all Adam's descendents.
It also deals with how God gave a good, righteous, and holy law (which we even agree with in our conscience) only stirs up this
evil contrarian NATURE of sin in our members.
And blessed Romans chapter 8 deals with how we can learn to live by another Person mingled with out innermost being - the Spirit of God aka the Spirit of Christ
aka Christ
aka the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.

In other words the Triune God living within the regenerated human descendent of Adam - a Christian.

Look at the solution.

And those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (Rom. 8:8)
That includes being in the law keeping or moral flesh.

But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. (v.9)
You Christians have your true identity as men with a reborn human spirit where the Spirit of Christ lives in you.

But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. (v.10)
So turn to your spirit where Jesus Christ actually IS. That part of you by definition is righteous and the power greater
than the sin filled dead, powerless body received since Adam's fall.

And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you. (v.11)
Christ within you as a life giving Spirit will also give divine life to your mortal bodies from His indwelling position in you.

So then, brothers, we are debtors not to the flesh to live according to the flesh; (v.12)
We no longer owe this sin filled flesh slave like allegience.

For if you live according to the flesh, you must die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live.(v.13)

We can learn to tap into the sin overcoming nature of Christ within who is the righteousness of our spirit.
We can learn to utilize all He has gone through including His death to terminate the activities of the sin filled body.

I have to suspend for a moment.
I will continue latter.

 

[One God and Father of All]

This is not the historic teaching of God's church. Man did not gain something at the Fall, as in a new nature; rather he lost something; he fell, from grace, from the goodness that's inherent in our being in union with Him. This is why the chief aspect of the state of original sin is the alienation from God that we're all born into. We lost the knowledge of God which essential to our possessing life.

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

That's why Jesus came, to reveal the true face of the Father. When we see Jesus we see God and when we believe in, hope in, and love Jesus, we believe in, hope in, and love God. The more we know Him, the more we love Him. We're reconciled now, no longer alienated.

"There is a genetic aspect to sin. I have no idea how it happened, but it did as the Bible so clearly tells us. It's why the redeemed are given new bodies at the 2nd coming. That takes away our built in disposition to sin"

Paul says it was the law which made man's flesh sinful.
He says "I had not known sin but by the law. I had not known desire but by the law that says Thou shall not covet"

When God told Adam not to eat of the tree He set down a law. So when Adam desired something that didn't belong to him he was coveting because to covet means to desire what is not yours

 

[oikonomia]

You are right on the money with this comment. I have listed 24 passages, in one post. from Paul's writings that daq will not touch with a 10 foot pole that confirm the concept of our fallen sinful flesh. He consistently accuses those who disagree with him of believing the Catholic doctrine of original sin that we are guilty of Adam's sin. The entire chapter of Ezekiel 18 refutes this a the son nor the father are guilty of the sins of the other. We are all guilty of our own sins and only our own sins.

daq wouldn't use the term original sin with me because he knows full well that Adventists do hot believe in original sin. Reading his posts to you makes it very clear where his accusations arise from. He consistently misapplies an entire chapter of the Bible to support his accusations of believing in original sin and his denial of Paul's writings on the subject of sinful flesh.

Thank the Lord for His word. We know in part and prophesy in part. (1 Cor. 13:9)
But His words we believe. And I saw the 24 passages all of which are to be believed.

One thing is a win/win situation. That is when verses are quoted to be sure to
enjoy the sheer taste of God's sweet word for nourishment.

On my to-do list is to go carefully through Ezekiel around that section of chapter 18 to
get a sense of what was going on.

In the progressive and gradual unfolding of God's economy
Ezekiel would have to sit at the feet of the Apostle Paul for further
wisdom and revelation of what full in the Messiah really salvation is all about.

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel, that is, the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which has been kept in silence in the times of the ages

But has now been manifested, and through the prophetic writings, according to the command of the eternal God, has been made known to all the Gentiles for the obedience of faith; (Rom. 16:25,26)