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Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by gomerian, Jun 20, 2018.

  1. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Just more theory based on Dispensationalism.

    The key of David is about being sealed with God's sealing by The Holy Spirit, and having been given to 'know' the "strong meat" of Hebrews 5.

    Out of the seven Churches in Asia, only two Churches our Lord Jesus had no problem with. And those two both had common knowledge of something which with the other five Churches there is no mention. Can you identify what Jesus showed the two Churches had in common?

    Rev 2:8-11
    8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
    9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
    10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
    11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
    KJV

    Rev 3:7-11
    7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
    8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
    9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
    10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
    11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
    KJV
     
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Ezekiel 37:23-24 has not been fulfilled, agreed. Differently, Ezekiel 37:19, 20, 21, and parts of 22 have been fulfilled. They are not a Kingdom again yet., but they are one nation again like they were previously to the split following Solomon's death.

    The brethern of the ones who did the casting ourt are the disciples and the Jews who have received Jesus - even to the present day. They were/are disowned by their fellow Jews.

    Separate from them who are currently saved by the blood of Jesus of the Jews, who will be takened in the rapture; it will be right at the beginning of the great tribulation that the bulk of Israel, the Jews, as a whole will receive Jesus.

    "for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children", in Isaiah66:8.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  3. gomerian

    gomerian Other Sheep

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    No, they are not yet a nation. When the two sticks become one in the Hand of God, Zechariah 9:13 will happen... [Who is Javan, really? Genesis had to've been written long before the coming of the Greeks.]

    It's the other way around... "your brethren" did the kicking out... wouldn't that make "your brethren" the Jews who kept the Samaritans from helping build the wall? Jesus talked to one of those outcast people, and even asked her for a cup of water. Jesus tells us that anyone who offers a prophet (Himself, in this case) a cup of water will get a reward. The Jews went about to kill Him, even while they were claiming that they believed Him. That makes it pretty clear who the kickers-out would also happen to be... it's their nature.
    ...
     
  4. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Talking with you Douggg, is like being stuck on a merry-go-round; you can't get the right definitions of Church and Israel and keep coming back to the established Church and the state of Israel.
    They are people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 7:9, who have gathered out of the world, into the Land, recently recovered from ruin....Ezekiel 38:8
    That ruin refers to the Sixth Seal; Lord's Day of wrath, which many prophesies tell us will depopulate the entire Middle East.
    Jesus said that while He was alive on earth. After His death, which the Jewish Israelites perpetrated, He said: Go now to all the nations and baptize them in the Names of the Father, son and Holy Spirit....
     
  5. gomerian

    gomerian Other Sheep

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    defined way back in Isaiah's time, and I believe that.

    John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him, If ye continue in My word, [then] are ye My disciples indeed;
    37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill Me, because My word hath no place in you.

    It's not about genetic Jews. It's about fake wheat.
     
  6. gomerian

    gomerian Other Sheep

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    Judge not that ye be not judged...

    Ezekiel 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

    What do the words "from among the heathen" mean to you?

    They're certainly not the heathen themselves.

    When the angel comes to harvest the wheat, the wheat will be reaped from among the tares... which does not mean that the wheat are tares themselves. The same thing holds true regarding the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel having been scattered amongst the heathen. They're not heathen themselves... they are living as Israel among the heathens: as wheat among the tares.

    His sheep hear His voice.

    ==========

    gomerian said:
    Jesus says He came only unto the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.
    Do you believe Him, keras?

    Then you've been persuaded that Jesus changed His mind.

    But in fact, the translation for "all the nations" is wrong. It's literally "always ethnos". Panta means always, Ethnos means blood relative.

    And here is what Jesus told His Disciples to Always teach the Ethnos:

    Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world."

    BTW, Jews are not Israelites, they're Judaeans; because the Kingdom is still Divided, according to Ezekiel 37.
    ____________
    Jesus never changed what He taught, or who He taught... and He tells you so Himself in that last verse of Matthew. Just as He told you in Matthew 15:24.
    ...
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    What makes Israel over there not a nation?
     
  8. gomerian

    gomerian Other Sheep

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    Ezekiel 37... the Divided Kingdom gave the land to Israel, and the crown to the House of David. Since Jesus owns the crown, and He isn't currently in residence... nor are the land's people reaped from among the tares... it's not a nation.
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    My brethern are Christians, which includes Jews who are Christians. The Jews who become Christians back in the first century, even up to today, are disowned by their fellow Jews. This is common knowledge.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    It is a nation right now, but not a Kingdom. And guess what? Back in old testament times, Israel was a nation, but not a Kingdom, until they had their first King - Saul.

    Saul - then David - then Solomon - then the split.
     
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Keras, you keep evading the verses I present to you in Ezekiel 39 that shows you to be in error. Ezekiel 39:23 plainly shows that they were not faithful believers. The ones in Ezekiel 38-39 are the same Jews over there right now.

    22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

    23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

    24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

    25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

    26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
     
  12. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Who has heard His Voice?
    Every faithful Christian, that's who.
    WE Christians, still scattered among the nations, are the Chosen race, the dedicated nation. Once we were not a people but now we are God's people.... 1 Peter 2:9-10, Romans 9:24-26
     
  13. gomerian

    gomerian Other Sheep

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    Why do I even bother.
     
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    gomerian, I went back and edited my post #42, to try to make it more clear.

    in Isaiah 66:5-6, it is talking to the Jews, both Christians and non-Christians. "ye that tremble at his word" - are the Jews who have received Jesus. Their brother Jews (Judaism) hate them because they had received Jesus. The non-Christian Jews (Judaism) disown the Jews who have become Christians..

    Jesus will appear to the Christian Jews at the resurrection/rapture, which their bodies will be redeemed - to their joy.

    Differently, the Jews, the unbelievers, will go through the great tribulation, becoming Christians then; but when Jesus appears in heaven at the end of the great tribulation, they will be ashamed that they had rejected Hm all the way up to when their perceived Antichrist messiah betrays them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  15. gomerian

    gomerian Other Sheep

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    In John 12:48-50, Jesus says that He spoke the words that God
    gave Him to say, and that we will all be judged on those words.
    To say that Jesus changed his words, after His resurrection,
    would destroy His word... and cancel faith and trust.

    Jesus and His Father are one; those who hear Jesus' voice are one.
    Their message cannot change: Some will fall to be made white.
    ...
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  16. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    This is unscriptural and false teaching.
    The unbelieving Jews will be dead after the Lord's Day of wrath, the Sixth Seal.
    Isaiah 28:22b ....For I have heard that destruction is decreed upon the whole Land.

    Isaiah 10:23 For the Lord of Hosts will bring final destruction on the whole Land.

    Ezekiel 20:47 The Lord says: I am about to kindle a fire, one that will consume anything flammable. All of the Land and people from the Negev northward will be scorched by it.

    Ezekiel 21:4 It is because I intend to make away with both righteous and wicked alike, that My sword of punishment is against everyone from the Negev northward.

    Jeremiah 22:6-7 The Lord says about the Royal House of Judah: Though you are dear to Me, I swear that I shall turn your Land into a desert; a Land of towns no longer inhabited. A destructive host will come upon you and burn your dwellings.

    Jeremiah 21:14 I shall punish you as you deserve, I shall set fire to your open Land, it will devour everything round about.

    Hosea 4:3 Therefore the Land will be desolate, all that lives in it will be wasted, even the wild animals, birds and the fish of the sea will vanish.

    Jeremiah 7:34 From the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, I shall banish all sounds of joy and gladness, for the whole Land will become a desert.

    Zephaniah 1:18 On the Day of the Lord’s wrath, by the fire of His jealousy, the whole Land will be consumed, for He will make a sudden and terrible end to all who live in the Land.

    Micah 1:6 I shall reduce Samaria to a ruin, to a place for planting vineyards. I will level the hills and valleys; lay bare their foundations.

    Micah 5:11 I shall devastate the cities of your Land and destroy your military power.

    Amos 2:4-5....I shall send fire upon Judah.

    Jeremiah 8:16 The sound of the Destroyer approaches and the whole Land trembles, it comes and consumes everything, crops, trees, city and citizens alike.

    Joel 1:15-20 The Day of the Lord comes; a mighty destruction from the Almighty, all food is cut off, the Land is shrivelled and dry, for fire has consumed the pastures and every tree is burned up. Jeremiah 25:38 The Land has become a waste and ruined because of the fierce anger of the Lord.

    Jeremiah 10:19 The Land says: O the pain of my wounds, I have suffered cruel injuries and am laid low, but I must endure it, because the shepherds of the people are fools and never consult the Lord; so their flock is scattered.

    Jeremiah 9:10 I shall chant a dirge over the mountains and pastures, for all is scorched and untrodden, I hear no sound of livestock, even the birds have fled and gone.

    Jeremiah 4:26-28 The fertile Land has become a wilderness, its towns all razed to the ground before the fierce anger of the Lord. The Lord says: the whole Land will be desolate, totally destroyed. All the earth will be in mourning for this and the sky will be black. For now I have made known My purpose, I will not relent or change it.

    Isaiah 32:12 Go into mourning for your pleasant fields and fruitful Land; for every happy home in the bustling city. Houses are forsaken and the streets are deserted.

    Isaiah 33:8a-9 The roads are deserted, the Land is parched and dry. Lebanon is dried out, Sharon is like a desert and Bashan and Gilead are stripped bare.

    Isaiah 24:10 & 13 The city is shattered and in chaos....all joy and merriment has gone from the Land. Nothing but desolation is left and the entrances to the city are smashed.

    Jeremiah 12:4 &10-13 How long must the country lie parched, its grass withered? No birds or beasts are left, because God has judged the wicked inhabitants, they said: God does not see what we are doing. A sword from the Lord has devoured the Land from end to end and now it’s all a desolate wilderness. Ref: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.
    Only a remnant; the few faithful Christian Jews will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 29:4, Romans 9:27
    Nowhere does the future world leader, the Anti-Christ say he is the Jewish Messiah, he does claim to be god, though.
     
  17. gomerian

    gomerian Other Sheep

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    I think that Judah will be redeemed when they say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord"... because that's what Jesus said to them. I don't know anything about Jesus appearing in heaven at the end of the great tribulation. Nobody who is there will be feeling shame. Shame is what will cause their repentance, just as it always does. They will realize that those who hear His voice were right about Jesus... they will see Jesus as their Messiah when a tenth of the city falls. I don't think that anyone who believes the antichrist has a shot at Heaven. Once marked, forever lost, seems to be the rule. Sorry for not giving you a bunch of scriptures to read... but I thought it'd be more fulfilling for you to do the research yourself. The light that goes on over your head shines brighter that way, IMO.

    May God bless you in your search, Douggg.
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The number of survivors of the great tribulation is not given. There is indication that a third of the Jews will make it through.

    Before Christianity, what was the thought of Jews regarding "the" messiah, as the disciples for example, were expecting? ....that is the mold that the Antichrist must fill....while he is in that role.
     
  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    It is actually Jerusalem that Jesus was speaking to at the end of Matthew 23. Before they get to that point however, they will make a huge mistake in thinking the Antichrist is their messiah, promised King of Israel.

    "belssed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" is saying given to the messiah, when he arrives to be the King of Israel.

    When Jesus entered Jerusalem the week he was crucified, the city welcomed him that way, but the religious leaders turned them against Jesus.

    Here is the verse,

    So what you have to understand about the Antichrist is that Israel will for awhile have him as their King of Israel, for most of the first half of the seven years.


    Later, the person becomes the beast, no longer the Antichrist, for the second half of the seven years.


    Where that comes from is that in Matthew 24:29-30, Jesus gave the sequence right at the end of the seven years, at the end of the great tribulation. The powers of the heaven will be shakened. And the world will see the sign of the son of man in heaven.

    That sign is Jesus appearing appearing in heaven before the throne of God, visible to all them on the earth, in Revelation 6, the sixth seal. It will terrify the evil men of the world to see Jesus.

    It is also in...

    It is also in the old testament, an earlier pophecy of the same forthcoming event.
    It is going to be an emotional time for the Jews. They are going to be Christians, saved for sure, when Jesus returns. But it is still going to weigh on them how they treated Jesus and disrespected him for 2000 years.

    many thanks!
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
  20. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Zechariah 13:9 Then I will pass that third thru fire to refine them.....
    From prophesies like Isaiah 6:13, Isaiah 22:14, Luke 19:27, Romans 9:27, +, it seems that only a very few will survive the Lord's Day of wrath.
    Your belief of a general Jewish redemption is just not Biblical. You are starting to get a little desperate and its showing.
    As there will be no Jewish nation then, only the Christians, who includes the few Messianic Jews, this question is irrelevant.
     
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