Superficial means that which lies on the surface, not thorough or complete, external, and not penetrating below. It is like one who first opens the door to a multitude of treasures inside.
In this view, you, me, and every other believer only had superficial beliefs when we first believed. We knew nothing of the truths which lie within the words of Jesus. Everything we knew was only external, and certainly not complete.
Thats a pretty good definition in the first sentence. Id have no trouble with that definition. And of course I believe that we start to grow right away through study of the Word.
Interestingly theres a saying that is often said among Reformed oriented believers. They say that it is quite likely that everyone was an Arminian when they first believed. If you dont quench the Spirit by picking and choosing what you like and dont like from the scriptures, youll eventually come around to the truth.
[FONT="]I think there is a lot of truth in that. But if by that those Calvinists happen to mean believing in limited atonement and a hyper-Calvinistic hard determinism NOT SO MUCH.[/FONT]
If you want to say no one is saved with superficial belief, then we have to apply that to ourselves. Any death bed confession is for naught, anyone who doesn't apply himself to seek the treasures inside is lost, and anyone who does not abide in the words of Jesus will never be free from sin.
We have absolute
disagreement here. One could by your definition say that the thief on the cross made a death bed confession. I doubt that any of us would say that he wasnt saved. Paul was just as saved when Christ called him as he was the day he died.
What I mean by superficial faith concerning who is and who isnt saved has nothing to do with a persons progressing knowledge of theology. Nor is it considered superficial by me because he is one who has been deeply involved with a besetting sin all his life and takes much longer to extricate himself from that sin than you or me.
[FONT="]While I certainly agree that one who doesnt study and apply the Word of God will likely not be able to extricate himself and remain free from besetting sin I disagree that that self inflicted malady effects their eternal relationship with the God who called them in grace. Im speaking of a saved sense and not ongoing fellowship - which can be affected mightily. [/FONT]
So, I guess the follow-up question is, when is a person actually saved after his/her superficial belief? What actually saves them?
I believe Jesus told us in John 8 -
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
It is when you abide in HIS word, become His disciple, and know the truth. Once you know the truth, it will make you free from sin. Being freed from sin is what saves a person.
I totally
disagree. Here we have the most profound of differences in our theologies concerning salvation.
When He says that we work out our salvation with fear and trembling, He is quick to add that it is God who is at work in us to do His good pleasure. He is already in us working with us in the faith He began in us. We work because He chooses to work through us.
In your theology, we work in order that He will approve of us and reward us with eternal life by coming to live in us. The difference between the two religions is like the difference between night and day.
Their hearts were not made anew, for all sorts of evil was still present.
Im rather ashamed to say that thats true of me as well. Its some small comfort that Paul was in the same boat.
Romans 7:14-25 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I
would like to
do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want
to do, I agree with the Law,
confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good
is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
[FONT="]21 [/FONT][FONT="]I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.[/FONT][FONT="] 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,[/FONT] 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
So Marvin, you now see I agree with you on superficial belief. However, you also see I believe one must proceed further from his initial belief in order to be saved, as you apparently do, from your first paragraph.
Not so! I do not say that at all. What the first interpretation I gave of the status of those people in John 8:30 says is that they were
NOT saved at all. I dont think that that is the best way to view the situation. But it is certainly an option, and one that the majority of commentators hold.
Luke 24 -
46 Then He said to them, Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
It is by this truth, that a person is freed from sin. Jesus told His disciples to preach repentance and remission of sins in His name to ALL nations. This truth is for everyone, none excluded.
By genuine repentance, a person sins are remitted (forgiven, excused, taken away, remembered no more).
Repentance is an integral part of believing on the Christ who suffered for our sins and was raised from the dead. God sees repentance as part of the message of salvation. That is clearly demonstrated in the sending of John the Baptist and his message of repentance before the coming of the one who provided that salvation. But Johns baptism of repentance did not save anyone from their sins. Believing in the sufficiency of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ to remove our sins is what saves a person.
There is a profound difference between the belief system of you and I. It can be illustrated by the way I deal with the young cult members who come to my door.
I never argue peripheral doctrines with them. I always head right for their concept of how to get saved and contrast it to my own. Without rehearsing a long fictional conversation here - I always ask them if they are saved
right now. They often meander around a bit. But eventually it comes out that they do not have faith that they are saved. They only hope that they will be saved in the end.
Often they will talk about their church activities. Often they will talk about overcoming sin in their lives and being found worthy in the end. But almost
NEVER will they tell me they
ARE saved.
I then tell them of my assurance of salvation through my faith in the sufficiency of Christs work on my behalf. I tell them the difference between my religion and theirs is that I have
FAITH and they do not. I stress that we are saved by grace thru faith. I then challenge them to run everything they are taught in their church through that matrix concerning the way the Bible presents salvation.
Occasionally I will be challenged with the idea that works proves faith and such. But we always end with talking about the fact that they must have a faith in the first place to prove by their works. Again we cover the basic truth that they do
NOT have faith that they are saved now.
I would challenge those who have been posting here in this thread the same way. In what are you basing your hope of salvation? Is it the sufficiency of Christs work? Or is Christs work seen as merely a doorway through which you pass as you go on to earning your salvation through overcoming besetting sins?
If it is the latter that you believe you are
exactly the same as the cults who come to the door. You may protest and say that your religion is different. But in reality it is not.
I sincerely hope that those young cult members I have talked to are saved in spite of their warped view of the process of salvation. I have my doubts. But I do hope that they are.
Making a definitive evaluation of someones eternal status is quite a bit above my pay grade.
But I must say here that I feel the same for some participants in this thread as I do for those sincerely deceived cultists.
[FONT="]Examine yourselves and be sure you are in the faith. [/FONT]