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OSASers must believe that God created human robots!

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by extraordinary, Jun 11, 2014.

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  1. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Yes.

    And just what is my definition of 'believe' that I am suggesting you defend?

    He's of age; he can speak for himself.
     
  2. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    Being once saved always saved is reality from salvation all being the work of Yahweh God, who is not willing that any perish, all are given opportunity to see the truth from God and come to repentance, but none are robotic, and so many resist instead. Those who say they believed, and have fallen away from Christian faith, will never come to faith of salvation, they give testimony against Christ, and never came to the essential faith which is with repentance, and relationship with love with God through Christ, as Lord and savior. Such relationship will always endure, with God involved in it.
     
  3. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    It's not like God doesn't love, he cares for all but doesn't compromise justice.
     
  4. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    What scripture did you find that says air is faith?

    If you don't have one then it is your man made opinion that you are teaching and not scripture.

    4 Remain in Me, and I in you. Just as a branch is unable to produce fruit by itself unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me. 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him produces much fruit, because you can do nothing without Me. 6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:4-6

    Is the command to remain in Me, given to saved or unsaved people?


    JLB
     
  5. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Thank you Marvin for your response.

    I guess it is pretty sound if you are a OSAS proponent. However, you say their belief was superficial. Surprisingly, I am going to agree with you on this. And I am going to mainly focus on this.

    Superficial means that which lies on the surface, not thorough or complete, external, and not penetrating below. It is like one who first opens the door to a multitude of treasures inside.

    In this view, you, me, and every other believer only had superficial beliefs when we first believed. We knew nothing of the truths which lie within the words of Jesus. Everything we knew was only external, and certainly not complete.

    If you want to say no one is saved with superficial belief, then we have to apply that to ourselves. Any death bed confession is for naught, anyone who doesn't apply himself to seek the treasures inside is lost, and anyone who does not abide in the words of Jesus will never be free from sin.

    So, I guess the follow-up question is, when is a person actually saved after his/her superficial belief? What actually saves them?

    I believe Jesus told us in John 8 -
    31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
    32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

    It is when you abide in HIS word, become His disciple, and know the truth. Once you know the truth, it will make you free from sin. Being freed from sin is what saves a person.

    So we see, superficial believing will not save a person. As we see from the story in John 8, the believing Jews were not saved. Their hearts were not made anew, for all sorts of evil was still present.

    So Marvin, you now see I agree with you on superficial belief. However, you also see I believe one must proceed further from his initial belief in order to be saved, as you apparently do, from your first paragraph.

    Now I would like to present the truth from Jesus which makes us free from sin.

    Luke 24 -
    46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
    47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


    It is by this truth, that a person is freed from sin. Jesus told His disciples to preach repentance and remission of sins in His name to ALL nations. This truth is for everyone, none excluded.

    By genuine repentance, a person sins are remitted (forgiven, excused, taken away, remembered no more).

    I will hang up and listen. :)
     
  6. nobdysfool

    nobdysfool The original! Accept no substitutes!

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    Since that is not what I said, perhaps you would do well to re-read my question.

    So I take it that you will not engage with my question(s)? You'd rather just declare that in your opinion (which is all it is) I am not teaching Scripture the way YOU think I should, and therefore I have nothing of value to say? Rather narrow-minded, I think.

    Saved people, obviously. Unsaved people cannot abide in Jesus. Is there a point to this?
     
  7. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    That’s a pretty good definition in the first sentence. I’d have no trouble with that definition. And of course I believe that we start to grow right away through study of the Word.

    Interestingly – there’s a saying that is often said among Reformed oriented believers. They say that it is quite likely that everyone was an Arminian when they first believed. If you don’t quench the Spirit by picking and choosing what you like and don’t like from the scriptures, you’ll eventually come around to the truth. :)

    [FONT=&quot]I think there is a lot of truth in that. But if by that those Calvinists happen to mean believing in limited atonement and a hyper-Calvinistic hard determinism – “NOT SO MUCH.”[/FONT]
    We have absolute disagreement here. One could by your definition say that the thief on the cross made a death bed confession. I doubt that any of us would say that he wasn’t saved. Paul was just as saved when Christ called him as he was the day he died.

    What I mean by superficial faith concerning who is and who isn’t saved has nothing to do with a person’s progressing knowledge of theology. Nor is it considered superficial by me because he is one who has been deeply involved with a besetting sin all his life and takes much longer to extricate himself from that sin than you or me.

    [FONT=&quot]While I certainly agree that one who doesn’t study and apply the Word of God will likely not be able to extricate himself and remain free from besetting sin – I disagree that that self inflicted malady effects their eternal relationship with the God who called them in grace. I’m speaking of a “saved” sense and not ongoing fellowship - which can be affected mightily. [/FONT]
    I totally disagree. Here we have the most profound of differences in our theologies concerning salvation.

    When He says that we “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”, He is quick to add that it is God who is at work in us to do His good pleasure. He is already in us working with us in the faith He began in us. We work because He chooses to work through us.

    In your theology, we work in order that He will approve of us and reward us with eternal life by coming to live in us. The difference between the two “religions” is like the difference between night and day.
    I’m rather ashamed to say that that’s true of me as well. It’s some small comfort that Paul was in the same boat.

    Romans 7:14-25 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
    [FONT=&quot]21 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,[/FONT] 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
    Not so! I do not say that at all. What the first interpretation I gave of the status of those people in John 8:30 says is that they were NOT saved at all. I don’t think that that is the best way to view the situation. But it is certainly an option, and one that the majority of commentators hold.
    Repentance is an integral part of believing on the Christ who suffered for our sins and was raised from the dead. God sees repentance as part of the message of salvation. That is clearly demonstrated in the sending of John the Baptist and his message of repentance before the coming of the one who provided that salvation. But John’s baptism of repentance did not save anyone from their sins. Believing in the sufficiency of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ to remove our sins is what saves a person.

    There is a profound difference between the belief system of you and I. It can be illustrated by the way I deal with the young cult members who come to my door.

    I never argue peripheral doctrines with them. I always head right for their concept of how to get “saved” and contrast it to my own. Without rehearsing a long fictional conversation here - I always ask them if they are saved right now. They often meander around a bit. But eventually it comes out that they do not have faith that they are saved. They only hope that they will be saved in the end.

    Often they will talk about their church activities. Often they will talk about overcoming sin in their lives and being found worthy in the end. But almost NEVER will they tell me they ARE saved.

    I then tell them of my assurance of salvation through my faith in the sufficiency of Christ’s work on my behalf. I tell them the difference between my religion and theirs is that I have FAITH and they do not. I stress that we are saved by grace thru faith. I then challenge them to run everything they are taught in their church through that matrix concerning the way the Bible presents salvation.

    Occasionally I will be challenged with the idea that works proves faith and such. But we always end with talking about the fact that they must have a faith in the first place to prove by their works. Again we cover the basic truth that they do NOT have faith that they are saved now.

    I would challenge those who have been posting here in this thread the same way. In what are you basing your hope of salvation? Is it the sufficiency of Christ’s work? Or is Christ’s work seen as merely a doorway through which you pass as you go on to earning your salvation through overcoming besetting sins?

    If it is the latter that you believe – you are exactly the same as the cults who come to the door. You may protest and say that your religion is different. But in reality it is not.

    I sincerely hope that those young cult members I have talked to are saved in spite of their warped view of the process of salvation. I have my doubts. But I do hope that they are.

    Making a definitive evaluation of someone’s eternal status is quite a bit above my pay grade.

    But I must say here that I feel the same for some participants in this thread as I do for those sincerely deceived cultists.

    [FONT=&quot]Examine yourselves and be sure you are in the faith. :)[/FONT]
     
  8. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    I am wondering, where regeneration fits into your beliefs. This is basically why I wrote what I did.

    Here is your quote below, "Making a definitive evaluation of someone’s eternal status is quite a bit above my pay grade". How can you say one with superficial faith is saved or not? What parameters do you seek to make such a statement?

    Although the last part was added, Paul still said (you) work out 'your own' salvation...

    No one disagrees that God is at work in us, but Paul specifically said 'YOU work out YOUR OWN salvation. If man does nothing of himself, then the work God does in us is for naught. That is like God calling one to preach the word, but he does nothing of himself to preach. I guarantee nothing will be done until he decides for himself to get it going; he must act of himself or he will not preach.

    I won't give the many parable which portray this very exact thing. You may look for yourself.

    However, I will give two verses for you to consider.

    2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    James 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.


    What is wrong with a man being approved of God? Paul says to be diligent to present ourselves approved, (pleasing, accepted) to God. Notice Paul says, 'a worker'.

    But James gives a more detailed account of being approved. Blessed is the man who endures temptation. We find later in the chapter, James associates temptation to sin. For it is giving in to temptation which gives birth to sin.

    It is the man who endures temptation who is blessed. Endure is a very strong word meaning to remain, to persevere, to hold fast. It is the man who gives in to temptation who is not blessed, and as we will see, not approved of God.

    James then says, the man who perseveres temptation, FOR WHEN HE HAS BEEN APPROVED, will receive the crown of life. The man who does not endure temptation, but rather, gives in to his lusts and brings forth sin is NOT approved, and will not receive the crown of life.

    So yes Marvin, man must do something to be approved of God to receive the crown of life. And here again, it has to do with sin in man's life. Either he remains steadfast in the face of temptation, or he gives in and sins. The man who fails in temptation is not approved, nor pleasing to God.

    This corresponds to Ezekiel 18:31, which says to cast away all our transgressions to make ourselves a new heart and new spirit.

    Again, I ask by what standard do you use to say these believers were not saved? I'm betting it has something to do with their actions.

    I have already shown that repentance removes our sins. Jesus said nothing about His death and resurrection in removing our sins.

    Did you tell them that Jesus said to inherit eternal life, they keep the commandments?

    Did you tell them Jesus said those who do good come forth at the resurrection of life?

    Just asking.

    My hope is understanding and obeying the truth Jesus gave. You can believe in the sufficiency of His work, but until you free yourself, with His help, from the bondage of sin, belief alone will not be sufficient for salvation, as we see in John 8 about the believing Jews.

    What should one seek when he examines himself?
     
  9. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    [FONT=&quot]Most people when they first believe just understand that they have accepted forgiveness of their sins after believing that Christ is God’s method of salvation for us. A little later on they realize that it was God who opened their eyes because they couldn’t really understand and come to Christ in their spiritually dead condition.

    [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]They eventually see in the scripturse examples of God opening someones’s eyes to believe in the account in Acts of Lydia for instance. They see in the account of Paul’s calling that it wasn’t because they were seeking understanding that they were saved.

    [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]They see the statements concerning election, predestination, grace, and calling by grace. As a result they come to believe that it was God who began the good work in them and not because they were more seeking that their neighbor. Often they find that these concepts lead them to a Calvinistic orientation. But not always.

    [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Concerning the term “regeneration” - I am a fairly open to the exact meaning. Obviously it is to be tied to the concept of spiritual deadness and the need to be “born again”. Many see it as an instantaneous opening of the eyes such as the case of Lydia in the book of Acts.

    [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Sometimes they see it as a bit of a process as per Paul’s kicking against the goads. Sometimes they look more to the scriptures that speak of obedience leading to “life”.

    [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]It’s hard to say what the exact picture is of what happens in this process of life as outlined in scripture. I happen to believe that God has left it a slight bit ambiguous precisely so that those who would make salvation of men’s works predominantly would have enough rope to hang themselves - as we see here in this thread.

    [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Biblically – as long as one realizes that it is God who started the good work in them and that it is He who will see it through to the end, several views can be held.
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I have my own view of regeneration’s relationship to being born into the Kingdom. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I’ve not said anything about regeneration’s place in the John 8 account or even if it took place. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I look at the scriptures that indicate that all who claim to be saved are not necessarily saved. I look at those who add works to grace being under a curse. Without giving a bunch of examples -I believe that superficial faith is one that accepts Christ in a religious sense without making it very personal – without resting fully in His work – adding what seems natural to salvation in the immediate sense rather than believing only on Him. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Salvation in the complete sense has many facets. Many of those facets include the work of men through faith. Even initial salvation includes a personal response to the gospel. I know of no one outside of universalists who would disagree with that.
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Nothing wrong at all. Very commendable indeed.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]It depends on what you consider the crown of life being I suppose as to what is being received. Certainly a life that perseveres itself into eternity like gold and jewels rather than one that is burned up like wood, hay and stubble is what we want to receive. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Probably God will evaluate what is true faith when the time comes based on the fruit in that life. But we are specifically told that we are not able to make that evaluation accurately here on earth[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]No you have not shown that. And Jesus didn’t preach the gospel to the gentiles when He presented Himself to the Jews. Paul, the apostle to the gentiles did that. He did it very clearly also – check it out. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]If I have time and I see that they are interested I will talk to them about the place of works and about the resurrection and many other things Biblical. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]In view of all the warnings about adding human works to the basic message of salvation – the first and most the most important thing is to see if you understand the gospel properly.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]

    I noticed that you lauched right into debate on other areas instead of admitting that your original post was wrong headed. No deletions, apologies for mistating the argument or anything of the kind. That tells me that you are not really interested in people reading here finding truth. You are interested instead of redeeming your image and or winning an argument.

    That tells me all I need to know about whether I will be casting pearls before swine to continue this. I will break this off just as I would with one of those people on my porch.

    Believing, as I do, that salvation is of God from start to finish- I only need to present the basic truth as I understand it to have a clear conscience. I don't need to convince anyone.

    I now leave you to the care and feeding of the Holy Spirit - just as I do those cult members.

    May you find truth and understand the simple gospel. If you find in the end that you have believed wrong it won't be because I failed to speak the truth. :)

    [/FONT]
     
  10. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    [FONT=&quot]

    [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Accepted forgiveness? Forgiveness comes from repentance. I have great so[FONT=&quot]ur[FONT=&quot]ce[FONT=&quot]s [FONT=&quot]which back it up.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]

    So, this happens to everyone?

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]

    [FONT=&quot]What I find ironic, Jesus never taught any o[FONT=&quot]f these things. H[FONT=&quot]is gospel never included any of these things. I[FONT=&quot]f you are honest, you will agree with this.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]

    I see it as a new life, which includes more than just a new birth.

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]

    [FONT=&quot]Really? I see many things in the process of this new life in the [FONT=&quot]Bible.

    [FONT=&quot]I guess the sheep [FONT=&quot]hung themselves with works in Matthew 25.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [/FONT][/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]

    [FONT=&quot]I was just wondering. Many [FONT=&quot]Calvinists are ad[FONT=&quot]amant when it comes to [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]regeneration[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]. Most[FONT=&quot], if not all, say regenerat[FONT=&quot]ion must take place before one can believe.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]

    From your bolded statement abo[FONT=&quot]ve, I guess Jesus was wrong when [FONT=&quot]He told the youn[FONT=&quot]g[FONT=&quot] man he was correct about inheriting eternal life by keeping the commandments.

    I also guess you are s[FONT=&quot]aying t[FONT=&quot]hose who do good works are cursed. Jesus said it was those who do good who attain the resurrection of life. Why am I feeling you are wrong and Jesus is correct?

    [FONT=&quot]Tell me Marvin, who should I believe, you or Jesus? Jesus told us to continue in His word and we will know the truth. Most of every thing you have told me was not said by Je[FONT=&quot]sus. [/FONT][/FONT]
    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]


    Now you are telling me that COMPLETE salvation includes the work of men. I am sorry if I am confused by your stance. First you tell me a man is cursed who adds works to grace, then you tell me complete salvation includes works. What do you really believe?

    [FONT=&quot]

    I consider the crown of life to be just what it says, a crown of life. [FONT=&quot]The key word is LIFE[FONT=&quot], as opposed to death. So[FONT=&quot] I a[FONT=&quot]sk, is it your desire to be approved and pleasing to[FONT=&quot] God? [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]

    Why not?
    [/FONT]
    Matthew 7 -
    15 Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
    16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
    17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
    20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.

    I am told I can know false prophets by their fruit. This is how you can know, if what I believe what is false and how I can know, if what you believe is false.

    Every man which denies good works (or good fruit) in their lives is a bad tree according to Jesus. Man either produces good fruit or bad fruit. Your statement that man adding works to grace is cursed, isn't justified by the words of Jesus.

    If a man doesn't do good works (or produce good fruit) is cut down and thrown into the fire. To me, that is the man who is cursed.

    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]

    After His resurrection He did. [FONT=&quot]Read[FONT=&quot] Luke 24:47 carefully -

    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]The disciples were c[FONT=&quot]ommanded to preach to Jews and Gentiles.[/FONT]

    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]

    Please s[FONT=&quot]how me where Jesus gave any w[FONT=&quot]arnings to this effect.[/FONT][/FONT]

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]

    [FONT=&quot]I am not going to feel any remo[FONT=&quot]rse for your accusations[FONT=&quot]; they are b[FONT=&quot]aseless. Sorry Marvin[FONT=&quot], I've seen t[FONT=&quot]his game played too many times on this forum[FONT=&quot]. [FONT=&quot]Remember, keep focused on the content and not on the person.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]

    [FONT=&quot]I've seen this game too many times also. When [FONT=&quot]one is confronted with other views[FONT=&quot] and they can't seem to pull others to their views, they l[FONT=&quot]eave.

    [FONT=&quot]I am not a newbie to the Bible. You [FONT=&quot]need to present your views in light of the words of Jesus, before I will even consider changing my views. I[FONT=&quot] have come to believe many different views than when I originally became a [FONT=&quot]disciple of Jesus. [FONT=&quot]That came from continuing in His word.

    [FONT=&quot]It's amazing what one is ta[FONT=&quot]ught from the Master Teacher wh[FONT=&quot]en he [FONT=&quot]continues and studies the Teacher's very words. I am not easily persuaded if confronted with views th[FONT=&quot]at contradict His truth[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT].
    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]


    Again, if you had given me the truth from the words of Jesus Himself, I would have gladly entertained your words. But when one says I am cursed because I add works to grace, I can only look to the Savior Himself and smile.
     
  11. A New Dawn

    A New Dawn God is bigger than the boogeyman!

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    True belief comes from a changed heart. It might be superficial at the beginning, but continues to grow stronger. Superficial doesn't mean not true, it just means not deep. You seem to be confusing a superficial faith with an untrue faith. One that comes from our own efforts, which stagnates and falters/dies. I think using superficial in this instance is not a good choice of words. Since enduring to the end is a mark of true faith, that is a much better indicator of whether or not one's faith is true.

    We are all sinners when we are saved. None of us have faith, superficial or otherwise.

    See above. We are saved by grace through faith. The depth of the faith is not an issue, the trueness of it is. (Whether it is from God or if we had to conjure it up ourselves.)
     
  12. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    One final note Marvin. I was thinking maybe you would tell me faith comes as a gift from God. Calvinists are fond of saying this. I was hoping you would explain how the believing Jews received their faith from God, yet wanted to kill Him.

    Maybe someone else will explain this. I doubt it, but there may be a brave soul or two.
     
  13. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    I'm not confusing anything, sorry.

    Luke 7:50 - And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

    So you contend this woman's faith should have faltered and died, but yet Jesus said it saved her.

    Luke 8:48 - And He said to her, “daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace.”

    Luke 17:19 - And He said to him, “stand up and go; your faith has made you well.”

    Luke 18:42 - And Jesus said to him, “receive your sight; your faith has made you well.”

    According to you, all these should have dead faith, being their own. In actuality, James tells us what a dead faith is. It is a faith without works.

    James 2:17 - Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    Luke 7:50 - And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

    This woman had faith before she was saved.

    Is faith from God or man?
     
  14. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    The simple truth of the Gospel is believe on the Lord and you will be saved.


    Deny the Lord and you will not be saved.

    If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. 2 Timothy 2:12


    Are you teaching these folks you can deny the Lord and still be saved?


    JLB
     
  15. A New Dawn

    A New Dawn God is bigger than the boogeyman!

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    Faith is a gift from God. It is given to us, therefore it is ours once it is given. But good try.
     
  16. A New Dawn

    A New Dawn God is bigger than the boogeyman!

    +7,012
    Calvinist
    Married
    True believers will not deny the Lord. Where do you get all this from? Who said anything about denying the Lord? People who ask these types of questions have to literally ignore 99% of what is said to grasp hold of the 1% they refuse to understand because they ignore the 99%. :doh:
     
  17. Angelquill

    Angelquill Bard of Angels

    +94
    Christian

    Did Jesus promise that He would not leave us or forsake us?
    Yes, He did.
    Do you think He lied?

    Did He promise that God, once He started "a good work" in us, would finish it?
    Yes, He did.
    Do you think He lied?

    Did He say that His sheep know His voice and that He knows them?
    Yes, He did.

    Did He give men any way to know His disciples?
    I'll leave you to figure that one out....
     
  18. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

    +1,429
    Protestant
    Married
    Apparently. If your name is Peter.

    These folks can read the account for themselves in their Bibles.
     
  19. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

    +874
    Non-Denom
    Married
    The bible clearly teaches us that Peter nor the others have been given the Holy Spirit until after the resurrection of The Lord.

    Your point is moot.


    JLB
     
  20. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

    +1,429
    Protestant
    Married

    Right you are. The time of the example was before the resurrection. I’m sure that we are all very happy that the Holy Spirit was given to us after the resurrection.

    In the case of Peter – Jesus interceded for him before the resurrection and that was surely a good thing. It was a powerful thing to have the Son of God interceding for him and praying that he would be restored after his coming failure.

    “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” But he said to Him, “Lord, with You I am ready to go both to prison and to death!” And He said, “I say to you, Peter, the rooster will not crow today until you have denied three times that you know Me.” Luke 22:31:34

    It’s an even more powerful thing to have the Son of God always living in us to make intercession when we are weak.

    “But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.” John 16:7

    You may see our bulwark against failure as weaker now after the coming of the Holy Spirit than for Peter in the days before the coming of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said otherwise.

    We don’t always know what we should pray for, and how to pray about them, [FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]And the Holy Spirit helps us in our distress. For we don’t even know what we should pray for, not how we should pray. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot expressed in words. And the Father who knows all hearts knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with God’s own will. Romans 8:26, 27[/FONT]

    1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have anadvocatewith the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

    Hebrews 4:15 “For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.”

    To quote Oswald Chambers, “Jesus Christ carries on intercession for us in heaven; the Holy Ghost carries on intercession in us on earth; and we the saints have to carry on intercession for all men.”

    You may feel that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit makes being restored to fellowship after failure less likely than before His being sent from on high. I disagree totally.

    [FONT=&quot]I think the scriptures make it clear that His indwelling intercession makes our continued success even more assured than in the case of Peter before the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    In view of our eternally indwelling intercessor - IMO my point is anything but “moot”.

    ***I would hope it would go without saying. But no one is advocating that anyone deny Jesus.
    .
    [/FONT]
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2014
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