OSASers must believe that God created human robots!

[extraordinary]

Faith is a gift from God. It is given to us, therefore it is ours once it is given.

I learned this concept when I was about one year old.

A candy bar is a gift from Daddy. It is given to us, therefore it is ours once it is given.

Yes, our faith is a gift from God ... and you think this initial faith is what saves us.
Butski, our obedience is not a gift from God and neither is our endurance until the end.

Dese 2 babies can be the wonderful result of utilizing our free will to our great advantage,
which has to do with being overcomers during the lifelong process of sanctification,
which actually is the lifelong process of salvation ... unto eternal life.

The New Covenant
Father God cut a covenant with you when you became a BAC!
If either He or you betrays this covenant, it is thereby broken.
God is no covenant-breaker.
But, you can break it ... resulting in great loss!
If you sin, sincerely repent ... and all will be forgiven (1 John 1:7-2:1).
.

 

[A New Dawn]

I learned this concept when I was about one year old.

A candy bar is a gift from Daddy. It is given to us, therefore it is ours once it is given.

Yes, our faith is a gift from God ... and you think this initial faith is what saves us.
Butski, our obedience is not a gift from God and neither is our endurance until the end.

Dese 2 babies can be the wonderful result of utilizing our free will to our great advantage,
which has to do with being overcomers during the lifelong process of sanctification,
which actually is the lifelong process of salvation ... unto eternal life.

The New Covenant
Father God cut a covenant with you when you became a BAC!
If either He or you betrays this covenant, it is thereby broken.
God is no covenant-breaker.
But, you can break it ... resulting in great loss!
If you sin, sincerely repent ... and all will be forgiven (1 John 1:7-2:1).
.

Yes, our obedience is a gift from God. Look at Ephesians 2.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are created unto good works in Christ Jesus from before the foundation of the world. It is as much a part of His will as salvation is. And if we are His, there is nothing that can pluck us from His hand. Remember? (Romans 8, John 6, John 10)

 

[nobdysfool]

Your answers prove to all who read that God would indeed have to creat robots with NO FREE WILL IN ORDER FOR OSAS DOCTRINE TO BE TRUE.

Thank you for proving the point of this thread.


JLB

You have not demonstrated even the tiniest bit of your assertions here. I provided specifics, you post generalities in rebuttal. Just flippantly dismissing my post with a wave of your hand does not make it go away. I asked for specifics. Where are they?

 

[Tallguy88]

MOD HAT ON

This thread has undergone a cleanup. There were many posts that were addressing other members and not their posts. This is the third time that staff has had to clean this thread. Next time it will be closed permanently.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[nobdysfool]

From the sitewide rules:

• Respect another member's request to cease personal contact.

I am asking for the second time now, please do not quote or respond to me.

And in case you didn't notice, the post that started all this was removed. I'm glad it was, as it was horrible doctrine. So really, your criticisms have nothing to stand on.

Please cease contact.

 

[Tallguy88]

MOD HAT ON

Did a further cleanup of posts I missed the first time.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[Marvin Knox]

[FONT=&quot]It seems to me that the most clearly stated concept in all of scripture that could possibly be construed to show that a born again Christian could actually lose their salvation is the very concept not mentioned here by anti-OSAS types. I wonder why that is.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Could it be because the very religious concept cursed outright by God is the one espoused here by those who would seek to be justified by keeping a clear conscience before God in addition to receiving Christ’s sacrifice for their sins?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] “For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them…” Romans 2:14-15[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Galatians 3 “You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?...............................................10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith…………………………………………………21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.”
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus said, concerning the betrayal of Judas that it would have been better had he never been born that undertake the actions he did.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I’m thinking that it might have been better for many participants on this thread had they been born completely without a conscience than to use it in the way espoused here.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And I don’t mean that as a sort of over the top comment. I mean it quite literally when I say that I fear for the salvation of some participants here.[/FONT]

 

[EmSw]

[FONT=&quot]It seems to me that the most clearly stated concept in all of scripture that could possibly be construed to show that a born again Christian could actually lose their salvation is the very concept not mentioned here by anti-OSAS types. I wonder why that is.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Could it be because the very religious concept cursed outright by God is the one espoused here by those who would seek to be justified by keeping a clear conscience before God in addition to receiving Christ’s sacrifice for their sins?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

Actually we have brought it up many times. The law itself does not curse a man. It's when a man does not obey God and keep His commandments that he is cursed.

Deuteronomy 11 -
26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:
28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

We read this in Exodus 20:6 -
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

We see the law is a blessing and we are shown mercy when we keep His commandments. Far from a curse I say.

Jesus confirmed this in John 14:21 -
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:

How is one cursed when Jesus said it is the one who loves Him who keeps the commandments? How does one know if a man loves Jesus?

Let's also look at 1 John 2 -
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

How can a man say he knows God unless he keeps His commandments? If a man says he knows God, but does not keep His commandments, John says he is a liar and the truth is not in him.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] “For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them…” Romans 2:14-15[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

Marvin I am assuming you are a Gentile and have never lived under the law. If so, then you have the law written upon your heart. Your conscience bears witness to this when you either keep the law or do not keep it.

When you keep it, your thoughts defend you; when you do not keep them, your thoughts accuse you.

The law says do not murder. If one murders, do you think his conscience and thoughts accuse or defend him? Contrariwise, if one keeps the law and does not murder, does his conscience and thoughts accuse or defend him?

So I ask, is it better to keep the law and not murder, or to break the law and murder?

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

Actually, the Old Testament does not say, 'For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse'.

It is not those under the works of the law who are cursed, but rather, those who do not keep them.

And before I hear, no one can keep the commandments, I will give you these words from Deuteronomy 30 -
11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I’m thinking that it might have been better for many participants on this thread had they been born completely without a conscience than to use it in the way espoused here.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And I don’t mean that as a sort of over the top comment. I mean it quite literally when I say that I fear for the salvation of some participants here.[/FONT]

Do not fear. We have the absolute authority of the sovereign Lord behind us.

Deuteronomy 30:16 -
In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Proverbs 4:4 -
He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.

Proverbs 7:2 -
Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

 

[Marvin Knox]

EmSw

I'm having a little trouble copying your exact quotes to respond to. So I'll just do it in a very geeral way.

It seems to me that you miss the entire point for some reason. All of your quotes and directives about pleasing God through keeping the law are valid. No Christians would deny that God values keeping the law in whatever form it comes.

But the entire point of the O.T. is that NO ONE (except Jesus) has ever kept the law. That means Abraham., Moses. Marvin or you.

The point of the the N.T. passages are very clear. As valuable as keeping the law is - it can never get you "saved". The reason is that if you fail in one single point you fail completely. I think you will admit that you have failed. If not I will gladly point out posts where you or Extraordinary and others have used "duplicity". You may consider them minor offenses. But when it comes obtaining or keeping salvation they are the very things that disqualify law keeping (conscience keeping) as a means of gaining or keeping salvation.

[FONT=&quot]“For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.’ [/FONT][FONT=&quot] Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident.”[/FONT]

Nothing could be more clear. The law is good. Conscience is good. Failing in one single point is bad. It is so bad in fact that it disqualifies the person from obtaining or keeping salvation.

The only remedy for us is a complete reliance on the sufficiency of Christ's obedience to the law to fulfill the obligation on our behalf.

If you don't get that - you don't get the gospel. You are under a curse.

Try though I do - I simply can't see any way that this curse doesn't apply to those posting here. Even after my very clear post about the subject - you turn right around and make the same mistake again in spades.

I fear for your salvation and for a few others who have posted here in this thread.

 

[EmSw]

EmSw

I'm having a little trouble copying your exact quotes to respond to. So I'll just do it in a very geeral way.

It seems to me that you miss the entire point for some reason. All of your quotes and directives about pleasing God through keeping the law are valid. No Christians would deny that God values keeping the law in whatever form it comes.

Then I must ask, what born again believer doesn't want to please God? It seems many talk about pleasing the sovereign God, but have no desire to obey His sovereign commands.

But the entire point of the O.T. is that NO ONE (except Jesus) has ever kept the law. That means Abraham., Moses. Marvin or you.

Luke 1 -
5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
6 They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

Genesis 26:5 -
because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws

1 Kings 14:8 -
and tore the kingdom away from the house of David and gave it to you—yet you have not been like My servant David, who kept My commandments and who followed Me with all his heart, to do only that which was right in My sight

2 Kings 18:6 -
For he clung to the Lord; he did not depart from following Him, but kept His commandments, which the Lord had commanded Moses.

What is this? NO ONE has kept the law? I just gave four instances of people keeping the law. I wonder why some don't read the Old Testament before making such statements.

The point of the the N.T. passages are very clear. As valuable as keeping the law is - it can never get you "saved". The reason is that if you fail in one single point you fail completely. I think you will admit that you have failed. If not I will gladly point out posts where you or Extraordinary and others have used "duplicity". You may consider them minor offenses. But when it comes obtaining or keeping salvation they are the very things that disqualify law keeping (conscience keeping) as a means of gaining or keeping salvation.

Countless people were saved under the law by keeping it.

Deuteronomy 4:1 -
Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I am teaching you to perform, so that you may live and go in and take possession of the land which the Lord, the God of your fathers, is giving you.

Deuteronomy 5:33 -
You shall walk in all the way which the Lord your God has commanded you, that you may live and that it may be well with you

Nehemiah 9:29 -
And admonished them in order to turn them back to Your law. Yet they acted arrogantly and did not listen to Your commandments but sinned against Your ordinances, By which if a man observes them he shall live

Proverbs 7:2 -
Keep my commandments and live

From where does this charge of deception and trickery come? Perhaps you think I count myself as having not failed. You will not find this in my heart. But you will find this in my heart:

Ezekiel 18:32 -
Therefore, repent and live.

[FONT=&quot]“For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.’ [/FONT][FONT=&quot] Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident.”[/FONT]

I have already pointed out, 'for as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse' is not found in the Old Testament. Whether a man is cursed depends solely on man himself.

Nothing could be more clear. The law is good. Conscience is good. Failing in one single point is bad. It is so bad in fact that it disqualifies the person from obtaining or keeping salvation.

David failed, yet he was saved.
Moses failed, yet he was saved.
Daniel failed, yet he was saved.
Isaiah failed, yet he was saved.
Elijah failed, yet he was saved.
Many others failed, yet they were saved.

From where do you get your reasoning?

The only remedy for us is a complete reliance on the sufficiency of Christ's obedience to the law to fulfill the obligation on our behalf.

If a born again believer lusts after a woman, then commits adultery with her, how is relying on Christ's sufficiency a remedy?

Man of himself, must keep His commands from his heart. Relying on Christ's sufficiency will not keep a man from sinning against His commands.

Jesus never said to rely upon His sufficiency to fulfill the obligation of the law. In fact, the Bible says every man is responsible for his own sin and failure.

If you don't get that - you don't get the gospel. You are under a curse.

Try though I do - I simply can't see any way that this curse doesn't apply to those posting here. Even after my very clear post about the subject - you turn right around and make the same mistake again in spades.

I'm sorry, I will rely upon the sovereign Lord's words, and not a man-made gospel. I will, with His help, endeavor to keep His commands and live. I will love Him by keeping His commandments. By keeping His commandments, I will come to know Him.

I fear for your salvation and for a few others who have posted here in this thread.

Fear not! I am making my calling and election sure by keeping His commandments; that is my heart's desire.

 

[A New Dawn]

Countless people were saved under the law by keeping it.

Countless people were saved by looking forward to what the law represented, not by the law.

Then I must ask, what born again believer doesn't want to please God?

Pleasing God isn't what gets us saved, though. So even though all born again believers want to please God, it is a moot point.

It seems many talk about pleasing the sovereign God, but have no desire to obey His sovereign commands.

The many who have no desire to obey his commands are likely not true Christians, those whose hearts have been turned by Him. But, as I said above, pleasing God and following His commands is not what saves us. If it did, if it were possible, then the law wouldn't have had to have been fulfilled by Christ. We'd still be living it, still working for our salvation instead of putting our faith in the finished work of Christ.

 

[EmSw]

Countless people were saved by looking forward to what the law represented, not by the law.

Countless people were saved by obeying the law, not by what it represented. Many say the law represents a curse; how does looking forward to a curse save anyone?

Deuteronomy 30 -
15 See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
17 But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish.

Nothing is said about looking forward to anything. What is said is that keeping His commandments brings life; disobeying His commandments brings death.

Pleasing God isn't what gets us saved, though. So even though all born again believers want to please God, it is a moot point.

So those who are displeasing to God will be saved?

Did you know those who are approved and pleasing to God will receive the crown of life?

The many who have no desire to obey his commands are likely not true Christians, those whose hearts have been turned by Him. But, as I said above, pleasing God and following His commands is not what saves us. If it did, if it were possible, then the law wouldn't have had to have been fulfilled by Christ. We'd still be living it, still working for our salvation instead of putting our faith in the finished work of Christ.

True Christians are those who not only desire, but also actually keep His commandments.

If I am reading it right, you are saying those who displease God and do not follow His commands can be saved. And may I say, it was very much a possibility to please God and keep His commandments to be saved. God has said it Himself in His word.

It is those who obey His commandments who will inherit the kingdom. I have yet to read where we put our faith in the finished work of Christ to be saved. Many were saved during the lifetime of Jesus before He 'finished' His work. In fact, all OT saints were saved before Jesus 'finished' His work.

 

[Hammster]

Pop quiz. The law applied to _______.

 

[EmSw]

Pop quiz. The law applied to _______.

...those seeking life.

 

[Hammster]

...those seeking life.

Ooooh, sorry contestant. You have failed. And there are no parting gifts. Better luck next time.

 

[EmSw]

Ooooh, sorry contestant. You have failed. And there are no parting gifts. Better luck next time.

Those who believe the word of God need no luck.

Deuteronomy 30 -
15 See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live

So the law was given for those seeking to live.

 

[Hammster]

Those who believe the word of God need no luck.

Deuteronomy 30 -
15 See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live

So the law was given for those seeking to live.

Still swinging and missing. Too bad.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Originally Posted by Marvin Knox

[FONT=&quot]“For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.’ [/FONT][FONT=&quot] Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident.”[/FONT]
​

EmSw said,

"I have already pointed out, 'for as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse' is not found in the Old Testament. Whether a man is cursed depends solely on man himself."


Please tell us a little about how you see the N.T. as related to the O.T.

Please talk in particular about Paul's letter to the Galatians which talks about everyone who doesn't keep the entire law being under a curse.

I agree with your statement that whether a man is cursed depends solely on himself. That's the point isn't it? We've all broken the law in some way and are therefore guilty of breaking the entire law. Law breakers like you and I are under a curse.

Christ became sin to bear the curse of God on behalf of lawbreakers like us. Surely you believe that don't you?

Surely you believe in the substitutionary and vicarious nature of Christ's atonement.

Thanks!

 

[A New Dawn]

Countless people were saved by obeying the law, not by what it represented.

We must not be reading the same Bible. Christ saves everyone who gets saved. The law saved no one.

Many say the law represents a curse; how does looking forward to a curse save anyone?

Christ is a curse? What are you talking about?

Deuteronomy 30 -
15 See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
17 But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish.

Nothing is said about looking forward to anything. What is said is that keeping His commandments brings life; disobeying His commandments brings death.

I'd say you should read Romans 4. d

So those who are displeasing to God will be saved?

What are you talking about?

Did you know those who are approved and pleasing to God will receive the crown of life?

Actually the crown of life is given to those who endure to the end.

True Christians are those who not only desire, but also actually keep His commandments.

If I am reading it right, you are saying those who displease God and do not follow His commands can be saved. And may I say, it was very much a possibility to please God and keep His commandments to be saved. God has said it Himself in His word.

It is those who obey His commandments who will inherit the kingdom. I have yet to read where we put our faith in the finished work of Christ to be saved. Many were saved during the lifetime of Jesus before He 'finished' His work. In fact, all OT saints were saved before Jesus 'finished' His work.

I'd say you don't know how to read, because I didn't say any such thing. I did say that salvation is not based on works but on the finished work of Christ on the cross and His gift of faith and works to us. If you are reading anything else, it is what you are reading into it.

 

[EmSw]

Originally Posted by Marvin Knox

[FONT=&quot]“For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.’ [/FONT][FONT=&quot] Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident.”[/FONT]
​

EmSw said,

"I have already pointed out, 'for as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse' is not found in the Old Testament. Whether a man is cursed depends solely on man himself."

As I said, whether a man is cursed or not depends solely on him, not if he is of the works of the law.

Please tell us a little about how you see the N.T. as related to the O.T.

Please talk in particular about Paul's letter to the Galatians which talks about everyone who doesn't keep the entire law being under a curse.

First of all, it never says anything about anyone keeping the 'entire' law. If a man is in a continual state of not keeping the law, yes, he is cursed. But, God gave provisions for those who broke the law.

David is a good example. Did he break God's law? Yes! Did he keep breaking God's law? No! He saw his sins against God and repented of them. The theme of repentance is carried over to the NT.

Let me ask, if a man truly repents of his sins, does he need a substitutionary sacrifice for those sins?

I agree with your statement that whether a man is cursed depends solely on himself. That's the point isn't it? We've all broken the law in some way and are therefore guilty of breaking the entire law. Law breakers like you and I are under a curse.

We are under a curse if we continue in our sin. God constantly warned Israel of their sin. He brought them into bondage on account of their sin. From Genesis to Malachi, God warns people of the consequences of their sin.

Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel are filled with God's warnings against those who continue in their sin. People's hearts were filled with evil and wickedness, and they were falling farther away from God. Israel was no longer a nation ruled by God; they were under Roman rule.

So God became man and came to this earth to save His people from their sins. Their sins were destroying them. John the Baptist came as a forerunner to God, preparing the way of the Savior. What was John's message? Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand, the same message Jesus proclaimed. In fact, Jesus said in Luke 13:3 - 'I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.'

The message of repentance was commanded by Jesus for His disciples to preach when He ascended to Heaven (Luke 24:47) ...and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

If Jesus had taken our sins on the cross, this message would be useless.

Christ became sin to bear the curse of God on behalf of lawbreakers like us. Surely you believe that don't you?

Surely you believe in the substitutionary and vicarious nature of Christ's atonement.

Thanks!

I used to Marvin. But as one genuinely seek the truth in the light of Heaven, God will enlighten him.

If one will look at the word 'forgiveness', he will see there is no need of a substitutionary sacrifice. According to Strong's (Greek Lexicon :: G859 (KJV)), forgiveness means the following -

1. release from bondage or imprisonment

2. forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

Once one genuinely repents, as Jesus commanded, he is forgiven, or released from bondage, pardoned of sins, and remitted of the penalty of sin.

There is no need of a substitute once one is forgiven, through repentance.

This is the truth Jesus spoke, and how Jesus came to save His people from sin.