OSASers must believe that God created human robots!

[A New Dawn]

According to NF, a person must be born again to believe, and then the person in Luke 8:13, believes for a while (after regeneration), and in time of temptation falls away.

So we see, regeneration, according to NF, is temporary and does not endure with some in time of temptation.

Can you show me where NBF said that regeneration is temporary? That was JLB who said that. Those ones in Luke 8 that JLB was discussing are the ones who weren't regenerated. Unless regenerated means something other than being born again from on high, that is.

 

[nobdysfool]

Can you show me where NBF said that regeneration is temporary? That was JLB who said that. Those ones in Luke 8 that JLB was discussing are the ones who weren't regenerated. Unless regenerated means something other than being born again from on high, that is.

No, they cannot, because I never said any such thing. Regeneration seems to have a fluid definition for the synergist crowd. They often place regeneration as the culmination of the ordo salutis , rather than the beginning, or make it synonymous with the entire process inclusively. It must be painful to be so confused.

 

[EmSw]

Can you show me where NBF said that regeneration is temporary? That was JLB who said that. Those ones in Luke 8 that JLB was discussing are the ones who weren't regenerated. Unless regenerated means something other than being born again from on high, that is.

Gladly.

NBF's sig says 'we were born again in order to believe'. So his order is rebirth then belief.

The ones in Luke 8 are said to 'believe' for a while. I ask, if they believed at all, doesn't NBF's sig say they were born again first?

You say those in Luke 8 were not regenerated. I ask, how could they believe if they were not regenerated? I do not know what you believe concerning the order, but if you believe NBF's sig, then they must be born again in order to believe.

If you believe one must be born again before belief, then regeneration is temporary for the believer in Luke 8.

 

[extraordinary]

The extra special wrote:
This is my personal favorite ... hope you like it too ...
Matt 10:22 (also see Matt 24:13, Mark 13:13)
“And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake.
But he who endures to the end will be saved.”

So you believe in salvation by works?

No, I have a Bible and I believe what it says.
Perhaps you both don't have and don't.
.

 

[extraordinary]

Revelation 21:7-8
He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters,
and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone,
which is the second death."

It took me a lot of years to see it, but this passage sums it all up for me now!
It sure covers a lot of ground, doesn't it.

Please especially note one little item:
those who do any of these things are NOT overcomers!
And Jesus warns all 7 churches in Rev 2-3 that they must be overcomers!

However, the spiritual idiots, who have been deceived by the corrupt churches,
do not believe any of this can apply to them!

 

[A New Dawn]

Gladly.

NBF's sig says 'we were born again in order to believe'. So his order is rebirth then belief.

The ones in Luke 8 are said to 'believe' for a while. I ask, if they believed at all, doesn't NBF's sig say they were born again first?

You say those in Luke 8 were not regenerated. I ask, how could they believe if they were not regenerated? I do not know what you believe concerning the order, but if you believe NBF's sig, then they must be born again in order to believe.

If you believe one must be born again before belief, then regeneration is temporary for the believer in Luke 8.

So you are taking someone else's signature and applying your own interpretation to it and then accusing him of it. Right? Because the only way you can get that out of it is to apply your own interpretation to it. You certainly aren't using NBF's interpretation to reach your conclusion. IOWs, you erected a strawman and are beating someone with it instead of listening to what he is saying and attacking that.

 

[A New Dawn]

No, I have a Bible and I believe what it says.
Perhaps you both don't have and don't.
.

No, you are reading stuff into what your Bible says and believing that. IOWs, you are reading the Bible with "rose-colored glasses" on so that you can see things rose colored. It's a circular arrangement. You read what you want to see into it so you get that out of it.

 

[EmSw]

So you are taking someone else's signature and applying your own interpretation to it and then accusing him of it. Right? Because the only way you can get that out of it is to apply your own interpretation to it. You certainly aren't using NBF's interpretation to reach your conclusion. IOWs, you erected a strawman and are beating someone with it instead of listening to what he is saying and attacking that.

Why don't you constructively criticize what I wrote, instead of attacking me?

 

[extraordinary]

No, you are reading stuff into what your Bible says and believing that. IOWs, you are reading the Bible
with "rose-colored glasses" on so that you can see things rose colored. It's a circular arrangement.
You read what you want to see into it so you get that out of it.

Actually, you have your colors mixed up!
Believe me, you are wearing the rose-colored glasses!
Mine are more like gray, dark gray even.
.

 

[A New Dawn]

Why don't you constructively criticize what I wrote, instead of attacking me?

It was constructive criticism. I suggested you actually listen to what NBF has to say and speak to that instead of speaking to your own interpretation of what he said. Or you could ask him to clarify. Either way is better than building strawmen and attacking them.

And why should I constructively criticize a strawman argument? That's like asking me to defend a political position I don't agree with.

 

[EmSw]

No, they cannot, because I never said any such thing. Regeneration seems to have a fluid definition for the synergist crowd. They often place regeneration as the culmination of the ordo salutis , rather than the beginning, or make it synonymous with the entire process inclusively. It must be painful to be so confused.

Since Reformed doctrine is regeneration, then belief, let's see what John says about some who believed in Jesus.

John 8 -
30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, if ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;


We see many believed on Jesus, which according to Reformed doctrine, had to be regenerated first. Now let's see how these regenerated Jews act toward Jesus.


32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.


Jesus told the 'regenerated' Jews that they sought to kill Him, because His word had no place in them. So we have Jews with a 'new heart' seeking to kill Jesus.


38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.


Jesus said these 'regenerated' Jews sought to kill Him the second time, even when Jesus told them the truth.


41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Here's the real kicker - Jesus said these 'regenerated' Jews with a 'new heart' are of their father, the devil. I'm not seeing regeneration before belief in these supposed 'regenerated' Jews. But some want to believe this, despite what we read here.


45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.


Now Jesus tells these 'regenerated' Jews, they do not believe Him, because Jesus told them the truth. How can one be regenerated and not believe Jesus?


46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


More condemning words from the Savior. He tells these 'regenerated and believing' Jews, they do not hear His words, because they are not of God.


48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.


Is anyone seeing the fault with regeneration before belief? These supposed 'regenerated and believing' Jews now tell Jesus He has a devil.


50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.


Jesus now tells them they have not known God, but the Reformed want us to believe they have been regenerated by God.


56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Finally, these so-called 'regenerated and believing' Jews are so fed up with the words of Jesus, they take up stones to throw at Him. Is this what you should believe about regenerated people?

It's your life, choose carefully and wisely who and what you believe. Deception cares not who it takes under.

Ask and seek what true regeneration is. I can honestly say, if your father is the devil, and the words of Jesus have no place in you, even though you say you believe, YOU ARE NOT REGENERATED.

 

[EmSw]

It was constructive criticism. I suggested you actually listen to what NBF has to say and speak to that instead of speaking to your own interpretation of what he said. Or you could ask him to clarify. Either way is better than building strawmen and attacking them.

And why should I constructively criticize a strawman argument? That's like asking me to defend a political position I don't agree with.

I said, constructive criticism of what I wrote. So far, you have failed to even address what I wrote.

What's to clarify? He believes regeneration comes before belief. What needs clarifying about that?

Do you believe this also?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Since Reformed doctrine is regeneration, then belief, let's see what John says about some who believed in Jesus.

John 8 -
30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, if ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;


We see many believed on Jesus, which according to Reformed doctrine, had to be regenerated first. Now let's see how these regenerated Jews act toward Jesus.


32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.


Jesus told the 'regenerated' Jews that they sought to kill Him, because His word had no place in them. So we have Jews with a 'new heart' seeking to kill Jesus.


38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.


Jesus said these 'regenerated' Jews sought to kill Him the second time, even when Jesus told them the truth.


41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Here's the real kicker - Jesus said these 'regenerated' Jews with a 'new heart' are of their father, the devil. I'm not seeing regeneration before belief in these supposed 'regenerated' Jews. But some want to believe this, despite what we read here.


45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.


Now Jesus tells these 'regenerated' Jews, they do not believe Him, because Jesus told them the truth. How can one be regenerated and not believe Jesus?


46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


More condemning words from the Savior. He tells these 'regenerated and believing' Jews, they do not hear His words, because they are not of God.


48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.


Is anyone seeing the fault with regeneration before belief? These supposed 'regenerated and believing' Jews now tell Jesus He has a devil.


50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.


Jesus now tells them they have not known God, but the Reformed want us to believe they have been regenerated by God.


56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Finally, these so-called 'regenerated and believing' Jews are so fed up with the words of Jesus, they take up stones to throw at Him. Is this what you should believe about regenerated people?

It's your life, choose carefully and wisely who and what you believe. Deception cares not who it takes under.

Ask and seek what true regeneration is. I can honestly say, if your father is the devil, and the words of Jesus have no place in you, even though you say you believe, YOU ARE NOT REGENERATED.

.
Now wait just a doggon minute.

No matter whether you see regeneration before belief or not - that's gotta be the most ridiculous interpretation of a group of verses I have ever heard in my life.

It specifically says that "many" believed on Him - not all. He told them that believed to abide in Him etc.

You say that the ones who believed on Him tried to kill Him and said He had a demon?

You say that He then told the ones who had believed His words that they couldn't hear His words and that was why they couldn't understand His words?

You say that He then told the ones in the crowd who believed on Him that they were of their father the devil?

You put a LOT of work into that.

I understand your zeal for trying to convince others of the truth of your particular doctrine. But holy cow buddy, if you keep twisting scripture like that you'll have no credibility at all.

 

[nobdysfool]

I will not engage with EmSw for the exact reason that two other people have seen in his "assessment" of my signature. The word-twisting and unusual interpretations are beyond the pale. I am baffled as to why my signature, which has been pretty much unchanged for years, is suddenly an object of attack. And that is exactly what it is, an attack. It has been reported as such. EmSW remains on my ignore list.

 

[EmSw]

.
Now wait just a doggon minute.

No matter whether you see regeneration before belief or not - that's gotta be the most ridiculous interpretation of a group of verses I have ever heard in my life.

It specifically says that "many" believed on Him - not all. He told them that believed to abide in Him etc.

You say that the ones who believed on Him tried to kill Him and said He had a demon

Why question what Jesus said? Do you not believe Him? Let's look at it again, shall we?

John 8 -
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, if ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, we be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Jesus was specifically talking to the Jews who believed on Him (v. 31). Do you question this?

They, the believing Jews, answered Jesus (v. 33), we are Abraham's seed. Is this true?

Jesus answered them, the believing Jews (v. 34). So far, so good, correct?

THEN, in verse 37, Jesus responded to the believing Jews who said they were Abraham's seed. READ CAREFULLY - I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

The whole conversation, through verse 59, is between Jesus and these believing Jews. Do you find where Jesus turned from these believing Jews and spoke to another group of people? NO!

I see these verses upset the apple cart with many.
But I will ask...
1. Why not just believe Jesus and His words?
2. Did Jesus know their hearts, and even though they believed on Him, their hearts were not regenerated?
3. What will you do with the truth Jesus spoke?
4. Would you like to interpret these verses? Please do!

 

[JLB777]

Why question what Jesus said? Do you not believe Him? Let's look at it again, shall we?

John 8 -
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, if ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, we be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Jesus was specifically talking to the Jews who believed on Him (v. 31). Do you question this?

They, the believing Jews, answered Jesus (v. 33), we are Abraham's seed. Is this true?

Jesus answered them, the believing Jews (v. 34). So far, so good, correct?

THEN, in verse 37, Jesus responded to the believing Jews who said they were Abraham's seed. READ CAREFULLY - I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

The whole conversation, through verse 59, is between Jesus and these believing Jews. Do you find where Jesus turned from these believing Jews and spoke to another group of people? NO!

I see these verses upset the apple cart with many.
But I will ask...
1. Why not just believe Jesus and His words?
2. Did Jesus know their hearts, and even though they believed on Him, their hearts were not regenerated?
3. What will you do with the truth Jesus spoke?
4. Would you like to interpret these verses? Please do!

Jesus taught this principle clearly in the Parable of the Sower.


12 The seeds along the path are those who have heard. Then the Devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 And the seeds on the rock are those who, when they hear, welcome the word with joy. Having no root, these believe for a while and depart in a time of testing. Luke 8:12-13


The key phrase of John 8 - if ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;



Like the seed that sprang up from rocky soil, they believed for a while...

Then they turned away...


This is the very thing that Paul warned the believing Jews in the book of Hebrews.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


These words of scripture are clear to those who choose to see.


Good Job Brother!

Stand fast in the Truth the Lord has shown you, receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9


JLB

 

[nobdysfool]

Since spiritual birth is compared to physical birth (hint: birth), let's consider a question: When a baby is physically born, does it breath air before it is born or after? In spiritual birth, does the person believe before, or after they are born?

If a baby does not breathe and continue to do so, it will die. If a newly born-again person does not believe, and continue to believe, they will die.

Now watch, some of the anti-Calvinists here will try to make a big deal out of what I said, and read all sorts of stuff into it that I did NOT say. That has been their method of operation in this forum for years. They will even attack a person's signature. To me, that smacks of desperation.

I am not bothered by it, in fact, I find it hilarious. The signature stays, guys. It violates no rules. If it bothers you, guess who has the problem?

 

[A New Dawn]

I said, constructive criticism of what I wrote. So far, you have failed to even address what I wrote.

Did you even read what I wrote? I said there is no point in defending something that is a strawman argument. You are suggesting I defend YOUR definition of "believe", which is clearly not what is meant by what NBF posted. Why don't you ask him what he means instead of deciding for yourself what he means?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Why question what Jesus said? Do you not believe Him? Let's look at it again, shall we?

There are two fundamental interpretations concerning the believers in verse 30.

By far the most often put forward by OSAS commentators and also by those who stand against OSAS - is that they were not truly saved. Theirs was a superficial belief only. They were drawn by His miracles and eloquent words. But they were not “saved” really. If I believed that this is indeed the best explanation, it wouldn’t change my theology concerning salvation at all. It seems like the most common explanation is really pretty sound.

I suppose you yourself may hold this first position although it doesn’t read that way in your post. If you do, you agree with the vast majority of OSAS proponents that they were not believers in the first place. Your references to OSAS proponents believing that these folks were supposedly regenerated before “believing” are therefore meaningless.

The second fundamental interpretation is that they really were “believers” in the “saved” sense. Under this interpretation there are really 3 ways to see what transpired after they believe.

The first (and the second most popular overall interpretation among commentators) is that Jesus was talking in the verses that followed first to the believers and then to those in the crowd who had been His adversaries all along in the chapter. Verse breaks and paragraph sequences are arbitrary for our benefit and do not necessarily occur that way in the original manuscripts. What appears superficially to be addressed continually to the “believers” is not necessarily so. It does seem highly unlikely that He would talk predominately to His enemies for the first half of the chapter and then address only believers for the 30 or so verses that followed. This is my personal candidate for the most likely explanation of these events. But like I said, the first and most popular option is also a good one.

Under this second “fundamental” category – there are two more sub categories of interpretation.

The first is that these folks were saved in verse 30 and lost sometime before verse 37 when Christ turned His wrath on them. I know that this thread is dominated by those who are attempting to refute OSAS. But even you will have to admit that this example of loss of salvation would likely qualify as a world record.

Of course if it was their actions and words against Jesus which supposedly caused verbal outbreak - those sins happened before they believed and were saved in vs. 30. I thought those sins would have been forgiven if really became believers. I don’t get it.

The second interpretation is the one you seem to be espousing. Of all possible interpretations, it is the most unlikely. It has Jesus addressing true believers in an outlandish outburst against those who had come to Him because the Father had given them to Him.

He says clearly that God was not their Father.

He calls the ones that the Father had given to Him sons of the devil.

He calls them liars.

He says that they do not understand because they cannot hear His word even though those who believed are said to be taught by the Father.

Now this thread (and your apparent position is that people who believe must mind their P’s and Q’s because their salvation hangs in the balance. The overall thrust of those posting here against OSAS is that it isn’t really very hard to lose that salvation at all.

I dare say that no one here has accused Jesus of being a Samaritan.

I dare say that no one reading the words of this thread has ever blasphemed the Holy Spirit by saying that the one born of the Holy Spirit was born of fornication.

I dare say that no one here and indeed no believer has ever said that the supposed Holy Spirit that possessed Jesus was in reality a demon.

I dare say that no one here and indeed no believer in all the history of the church has ever tried to kill Jesus.

According to this rather silly interpretation, these folks were still saved people after all those sins being addressed specifically by Jesus for the last half of the chapter.

In fact you say as much in your rejoinder to me. "The whole conversation, through verse 59, is between Jesus and these believing Jews."

If that is true, we can all rest assured that the minor infractions we may commit in this life will not likely cost us our salvation. None of us are going to commit the sins these people did. Thus the implied purpose of all those who warn us here in this thread is to no good purpose. If you believe what you seem to say in your post - you are wasting your time here.

Of course, I don't believe that a person who is truly saved can lose their salvation. But thank you for the reassurance anyway.

Going back to the idea of these folks losing their salvation between vs. 30 and vs. 37 – if it is your position that people are so easily and often lost and saved you (like some others here) have indeed crossed the line into the preaching of another gospel.

I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt and say that perhaps you simply don’t think these things through before posting. In that case it might behoove you and some others here to take notes instead of talking so much.

 

[nobdysfool]

Air is necessary for physical life. Faith is necessary for spiritual life.

Anyone want to prove either one, or both of those premises false?