OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

[EmSw]

I'll be (or appear to be) self-conflicted (and illogical) then (though it's really not)...

Cause it is not saying what your saying... Your trying to twist it to make it mean something something else when it's really quite simple...

You can't lose what you never had, and what you (truly) have, you can't lose...

Let me ask you another question: Does God do the choosing, or do we...?

God Bless!

Judas would say God does the choosing.

 

[JacksBratt]

And "yet" not one single verse saying that all who are born again will "persevere firm to the end" or that those who "fall from grace are saved anyway".

They are if they are still born-again. If they have lost their salvation "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4... then they would no longer be saved.

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal 5:4 - NASB

Matthew 18 "forgiveness revoked"
31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should repay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

"every branch IN ME" - John 15
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Matthew 13
Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Ezek 18

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

========================

Isaiah 5
What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;

The Calvinist has "The answer" to God's lament where God says "what MORE could I have done.. that I have not done?"

The OSAS model says "you could have turned them into robots...'

If you, or anyone else, wants to live their life in fear of losing the salvation of Christ, that He gave to you freely for asking... Go ahead.

He said that if you "believe on the name, you will be saved". I may sin, I may fall, I may make mistakes and fall short... every day, every week.... but I never stop believing on His name.

So.. go ahead.... live in fear... Mine is a faith in the fact that I have hope and that I am washed in the blood. I have been given mercy by the grace of my savior.

 

[amariselle]

In Christ's Sermon on the Mount, the people were advised to be concerned about doing things today and not to worry about how it might be worse tomorrow, for tomorrow will take care of itself (Matt. 6). The human mind can not comprehend being saved forever. One has a chance, if one can do God's will today.

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:27-40

 

[Albion]

That's what hope is, right?

I don't think so. When the Savior of the world, the Messiah, the one the disciples followed (and ultimately gave their lives for), said to trust him, I do not think it meant "Keep your hopes up that it might happen". (!)

 

[Mountainmike]

I don't think so. When the Savior of the world, the Messiah, the one the disciples followed (and ultimately gave their lives for), said to trust him, I do not think it meant "Keep your hopes up that it might happen". (!)

I am surprised to see your name defending certainty Albion.

As an (ex) anglican, I certainly remember the reference was to "hope of eternal life" - which I belief isexplicit in the confession, and also referred in scripture. eg Titus?

I thought you used the similar formula to us such as "sure and certain hope", that still lleaves the decision to our Lord whilst not being presumptious and saying it will happen, but anticipating it will happen, giving room for uncertainty using the word hope!

 

[Albion]

What was said, my friend, is that trust and hope are the same thing. They aren't. Certainly not when the word is used to describe a theology that says *Go for it and maybe things will work out.*

That's what I was addressing.

 

[DamianWarS]

If God were going to hold on to you to the point of revoking your free will... then He should have done that with Lucifer to start with and saved us all a boat load of trouble - including the death of God the Son.

But as it is - God chose a free will model for His creation.

we have the luxury of rewinding back to the beginning and see how it all connects together. It actually seems more like carefully placed stepping stones then it does a series of random acts of free will which ironically seems more of an atheistic mindset. Perhaps free will may be more superficial than we care to admit.

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

And "yet" not one single verse saying that all who are born again will "persevere firm to the end" or that those who "fall from grace are saved anyway".

They are if they are still born-again. If they have lost their salvation "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4... then they would no longer be saved.

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal 5:4 - NASB

Matthew 18 "forgiveness revoked"
31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should repay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

"every branch IN ME" - John 15
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Matthew 13
Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Ezek 18

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

========================

Isaiah 5
What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;

The Calvinist has "The answer" to God's lament where God says "what MORE could I have done.. that I have not done?"

The OSAS model says "you could have turned them into robots...'

Rubbish. Nothing more than cookie cutting theology. Taking things out of context and ignorant as to who the author is talking too.

OSAS is a fact. But like so many works salvation pushers they have replacement theology. They think one verse can trump or replace another all based on their whim.

The facts are that we are saved by grace apart from works and that its a free gift. Everything works pushers say, is that you are saved by works. Totally throwing out the scriptures that clearly say the opposite.

God clearly state that salvation is by grace or works but not both. But works pushers don't want that. If they had their way they would be trying to push circumcision on every male like the Pharisee believers tried.

The facts are the facts, and if you have to do anything for a gift, it is no longer a gift. Furthermore, maybe the works pushers don't have salvation so that is why they are trying so hard to work for it, but my Bible says that Jesus has given me eternal life. Its not eternal if a believer can loose it.

Furthermore, my Bible says its Jesus that is keeping me and that I am predestined to be conformed to the image of God. So if a person can loose it then God is incompetent because what he predestined he was not able to make happen.

How is it that the many examples of believers in the Bible who lived wicked lives made it to heaven and yet the works pushers still rip apart the Bible to pervert salvation.

OSAS is the Gospel of Jesus but like the Pharisees the works pushers hate grace because it takes away all their pride and boasting.

 

[marineimaging]

And "yet" not one single verse saying that all who are born again will "persevere firm to the end" or that those who "fall from grace are saved anyway".

They are if they are still born-again. If they have lost their salvation "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4... then they would no longer be saved.

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal 5:4 - NASB

Matthew 18 "forgiveness revoked"
31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should repay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

"every branch IN ME" - John 15
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Matthew 13
Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Ezek 18

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

========================

Isaiah 5
What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;

The Calvinist has "The answer" to God's lament where God says "what MORE could I have done.. that I have not done?"

The OSAS model says "you could have turned them into robots...'

That's pretty good deduction. Surprising how a few 10's of thousands of other men studying God's word must have missed that. What I also know is that it is as simple as this. All of those children orphaned and digging in piles of garbage looking for something to eat, a million shepherds on the hill side, all the moms in the world drawing water from the well or tending a fire since Adam and Eve have the Love of God residing over them. Every man who ever drew in a net but could not write their name, can still understand that the Bible was placed here for man to understand God's love, Gods laws, and God's grace. And even the most simple man or woman, with no education, can receive eternal salvation through believing in Jesus Christ. No ritual, no intense beatings or waving of a flag, not even missing the Eucharist nor any other man can give or take that away. So we can convolute the Word of God, twist it, take it out of context, try as we might but the eternal message is this. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Whosoever Believeth and Everlasting Life. Gifts of Love from God. Not man's to give nor take away. Not mans to control. Live showing God's love through the Grace of Jesus Christ and all of those words will mean something.

 

[GodsGrace101]

If God were going to hold on to you to the point of revoking your free will... then He should have done that with Lucifer to start with and saved us all a boat load of trouble - including the death of God the Son.

But as it is - God chose a free will model for His creation.

===================

second point. The "special case" of someone who is born again then perseveres firm to the end -- being a case of OSAS - is not debated by either side of this discussion. That is a "given".

The debate is over the one who "is born again.. then is severed from Christ... fallen from grace... experiencing forgiveness revoked...cut off from Christ and burned in the fire".

====================

Third point. The 3-point and 5-point Calvinist that you describe above - has a special "problem". They "retro-delete" today's assurance of salvation when they find out that 20 years from today they failed to persevere.

The Arminian can know that he is saved today - but cannot know if he will persevere firm to the end -- 20 years from today.

The 3 and 5 point Calvinist you describe cannot even know that -- because until he finds out that he persevered 20 years from today - he cannot know that his assurance today is even real.

The Arminian DOES know better that he is saved today because it's up to HIM to stay with God or decide to abandon God.

The calvinist won't know he's saved until the end of his life to see if he persevered and it depends on God, so he cannot be sure if he's saved...even today.

 

[Bobber]

Adam and Eve had what was given to them by God Himself, DOMINION you do know what Dominion is don't you?

You know what Jiiminz? Yeah I think I do! You're talking to someone who worked part-time many years ago for a store called, "Dominion" so I think I know somewhat of what it's about.

Your precious Free Will only works within the framework, parameters of Dominion.

Nope Free Will works wherever there is LOVE and God is LOVE. That is not to say creative beings can over ride the consequences of their actions or to do things they don't have a capacity to do. If one offers another an ability to walk or achieve things of a higher capacity that's within the free will's ability to receive.

Now you tell me.
1) Does Free Will afford the Un-Saved person the ability to stop sinning, I mean, is this person capable of determining within himself that he is going to stop sinning, can he do it as an Un-Saved person?

Not on the level that the OT Law requires and that is absolute perfection. Now about keeping God's law through the Spirit of God's love that's a higher capacity God grants when we choose to receive it or really when we choose to receive him. Consider it this way....if I was told to run at a speed of 60 miles and hour I can't do it. IMPOSSIBLE! If however I was offered the keys of an automobile I can with my FREE WILL reach out and receive them, the keys which in essence is really the car the higher capacity. We choose to receive Christ and yes God is drawing but it's still our choice to receive or reject.

2) Does Free Will afford the Saved person the ability to stop sinning, I mean, is this person capable of determining within himself that he is going to stop sinning, can he do it as an Saved person?

Well to use my illustration above I can't choose to step out of the car and run 60 miles an hour. If I choose to stay in Christ, Paul himself exhorted us to, "Walk in the Spirit" (or stay in the car or function in that higher capacity) and yes that is something we daily have to choose to do. Nobody is going to do it for you including God.

In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work. 2 Timothy 2: 20

The end of the matter is, when a person Determines within himself that he is going to stop sinning, then he has in effect set up a Law for himself, saying I will not do this or that thing again.

Well no, can't agree with you there. God in his word in various places is exhorting us to sin not. What's wrong with a saint coming into agreement with God and to seek and endeavor to keep God's word that is by declaring who and what they are In Christ Jesus. That takes an act of the will to do that but such acknowledgments to God with thanksgiving causes the release of Gods light, life and power causing one to overcome.

Mankind is not capable of keeping Law, be it Gods' Law or our own, if it were possible to do so, then we would not have needed a Savior...

Agreed but like I've shared we can choose to receive Christ but each step of sanctification we have to cooperate with God to allow his power to bring victory. Daily choices every moment and hour of the day.

 

[BobRyan]

The Arminian DOES know better that he is saved today because it's up to HIM to stay with God or decide to abandon God.

The calvinist won't know he's saved until the end of his life to see if he persevered and it depends on God, so he cannot be sure if he's saved...even today.

The Arminian can always choose to reject the Spirit - and without that Holy Spirit cannot persevere.

The Calvinist who claims they are saved today but then fails to persevere 20 years from today -- will say that they never had the Spirit to start with (no matter how fully convinced they claim to be of their salvation today (-- in that model that I was responding to.) --

 

[BobRyan]

And "yet" not one single verse saying that all who are born again will "persevere firm to the end" or that those who "fall from grace are saved anyway".

They are if they are still born-again. If they have lost their salvation "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4... then they would no longer be saved.

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal 5:4 - NASB

Matthew 18 "forgiveness revoked"
31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should repay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

"every branch IN ME" - John 15
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Matthew 13
Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Ezek 18

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

========================

Isaiah 5
What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;

The Calvinist has "The answer" to God's lament where God says "what MORE could I have done.. that I have not done?"

The OSAS model says "you could have turned them into robots...'

Rubbish. Nothing more than cookie cutting theology. .

I find your logic "less than compelling" at that point

That's pretty good deduction. Surprising how a few 10's of thousands of other men studying God's word must have missed that.

And how many 100's of millions -- in fact over a billion that did not miss it.

What I also know is that it is as simple as this. All of those children orphaned and digging in piles of garbage looking for something to eat, a million shepherds on the hill side, all the moms in the world drawing water from the well or tending a fire since Adam and Eve have the Love of God residing over them. Every man who ever drew in a net but could not write their name, can still understand that the Bible was placed here for man to understand God's love, Gods laws, and God's grace. And even the most simple man or woman, with no education, can receive eternal salvation through believing in Jesus Christ. No ritual, no intense beatings or waving of a flag, not even missing the Eucharist nor any other man can give or take that away. So we can convolute the Word of God, twist it, take it out of context, try as we might but the eternal message is this. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Whosoever Believeth and Everlasting Life. Gifts of Love from God. Not man's to give nor take away. Not mans to control. Live showing God's love through the Grace of Jesus Christ and all of those words will mean something.

Amen!

Nice post

 

[BobRyan]

.

Judas would say God does the choosing.

Satan as well.

The fact is that God DID do the choosing... He sovereignly "chose" free will as the system He would enable and enforce in Creation.

Some Calvinists argue God can't do that... but He did. And paid a pretty high price Himself for making that choice and sticking to it.

 

[Mark_Sam]

The Arminian DOES know better that he is saved today because it's up to HIM to stay with God or decide to abandon God.

The calvinist won't know he's saved until the end of his life to see if he persevered and it depends on God, so he cannot be sure if he's saved...even today.

And then you have the little-known doctrine of Calvin of "evanescent grace" or "temporal grace", where God gives the reprobate an inferior grace so that they *think* they are saved, when they indeed are not. For example, from Calvin's Institutes (Book III, Chapter II, Section 11):

I am aware it seems unaccountable to some how faith is attributed to the reprobate, seeing that it is declared by Paul to be one of the fruits of election; and yet the difficulty is easily solved. [...]
But in this there is nothing to prevent an inferior operation of the Spirit from taking its course in the reprobate. Meanwhile, believers are taught to examine themselves carefully and humbly, lest carnal security creep in and take the place of assurance of faith. We may add, that the reprobate never have any other than a confused sense of grace, laying hold of the shadow rather than the substance, because the Spirit properly seals the forgiveness of sins in the elect only, applying it by special faith to their use. Still it is correctly said, that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy, they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their minds to this extent, that they recognize his grace; but that conviction he distinguishes from the peculiar testimony which he gives to his elect in this respect, that the reprobate never attain to the full result or to fruition. [...] Thus we dispose of the objection, that if God truly displays his grace, it must endure for ever. There is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent.

Which in a sense renders the whole "assurance of salvation" thing moot, at least in John Calvin's theology. How do you know that you're not just a reprobate victim to evanescent grace? Granted, I've never heard Calvinist preachers preach on evanescent grace, but it is still the legacy of Calvin.

 

[FenderTL5]

Perhaps Arminius and Calvin were both wrong.

 

[GodsGrace101]

And then you have the little-known doctrine of Calvin of "evanescent grace" or "temporal grace", where God gives the reprobate an inferior grace so that they *think* they are saved, when they indeed are not. For example, from Calvin's Institutes (Book III, Chapter II, Section 11):

Which in a sense renders the whole "assurance of salvation" thing moot, at least in John Calvin's theology. How do you know that you're not just a reprobate victim to evanescent grace? Granted, I've never heard Calvinist preachers preach on evanescent grace, but it is still the legacy of Calvin.

Well, actually, not so funny.
I have heard of this.

It's like dangling a carrot in front of a rabbit with no intention of ever giving it to him.

What I think happened is that Calvin made up one doctrine and then had to change EVERYTHING to go along with it. I used to know this by memory, but I can't remember it. If I can find it online I'll post it.

HOW MEAN is their God, anyway??

God is Love.
God is Merciful.
God is Just.
(plenty of scripture to prove it)

 

[amariselle]

And "yet" not one single verse saying that all who are born again will "persevere firm to the end" or that those who "fall from grace are saved anyway".

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ... - Philippians 1:6

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. - Ephesians 4:30

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. - Hebrews 12:2

They are if they are still born-again. If they have lost their salvation "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4... then they would no longer be saved.

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal 5:4 - NASB

Did you read carefully Galatians 5:4? Who is it that is "severed from Christ"? Those who know they are justified by faith, apart from the Law, or those "seeking to be justified by the Law"?

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. - Galatians 5:1-5

Galatians 5 does not support your assertion that those who have faith, who have believed the Gospel, can still be "severed from Christ" or have "fallen from grace." Quite the opposite. It is those seeking justification by the Law, who try to work for salvation, that are "fallen from grace."

Other verses confirm this:

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. - Romans 3:19-28

Matthew 18 "forgiveness revoked"
31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should repay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Jesus teaching the Jews, before His once for all sacrifice on the cross, which takes away all sin. Under the Law, this was indeed how forgiveness worked, but not with Christ. Christ died for us while we were yet "enemies". And in this He shows His great love and mercy, precisely because not a single one of us deserves such grace and mercy. God's forgiveness, in Christ Jesus, is entire and complete, there is nothing lacking in Christ's perfect sacrifice for sin.

Prophesied beforehand in Isaiah:

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

This prophecy being confirmed in Christ.

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high... - Hebrews 1:1-3

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Romans (read as it is meant to be, in it's entirety) is actually a wonderful letter to refute "works-based" salvation.

Why were the Jews "cut off", because they weren't living righteously enough or behaving well enough? Or because they did not believe/have faith?

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. -Romans 11:5-6

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. - Romans 11:17-25

The above verses, in context, are a warning to the believing Gentiles that they not become prideful toward the unbelieving Jews. Why? Because they, as Gentiles, were "grafted in" because of their faith, and not because they had done anything special to deserve salvation. Salvation is according to the grace and mercy of God, and not a reward for our merits, how well behaved we are, how many "good works" we do etc. Paul is reminding the saved Gentiles not to be conceited or boastful.

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. - Romans 4:1-5

Continued:

 

[amariselle]

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews, another excellent letter to refute "works-based" salvation. Let's start at the beginning of that chapter:

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God...-Hebrews 6:1

Many people like to take James out of context in regard to "dead faith", how many people understand "dead works" and why they need to be repented of? This is the "foundation" of our faith. We turn from trusting our "dead works" (filthy rags) to save us, and trust in Christ alone for salvation.

Here is how that chapter ends:

17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. - Hebrews 6:17-18

Read Hebrews 4 for more on what it means to know that Jesus is our "Great High Priest" and Galatians 3 for more on being "heirs of promise"/"Abraham's seed."

"every branch IN ME" - John 15
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

What makes you think that those who are "abiding" are not truly saved? Jesus specifically tells them they are "already clean." And why are they clean, because of their "good works"? No. Because of "the word" which He spoke unto them. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17)

It should also be noted, no "branch" abides or remains on the "vine" by it's own effort. Those verses do not support "works based salvation" or the idea that one can lose salvation. Quite the opposite.

Matthew 13
Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Where does it say he is lost forever? We all stumble. And truly tribulation and persecution could bring such stumbling about. Thank God we are not saved by our faithfulness, but by His.

Ezek 18

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

You do realize you are quoting the Old Testament, right? Indeed, "the wages of sin is death...but...the gift of God is eternal life, through Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

And as far as "a righteous man" goes, we know from Scripture that there is none righteous. (Romans 3:10-12) This is precisely why we need the Saviour.

========================

Isaiah 5
What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;

The Calvinist has "The answer" to God's lament where God says "what MORE could I have done.. that I have not done?"

The OSAS model says "you could have turned them into robots...'

The Bible has the only right answer:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. - John 3:16-18

 

[BobRyan]

And "yet" not one single verse saying that all who are born again will "persevere firm to the end" or that those who "fall from grace are saved anyway".

They are if they are still born-again. If they have lost their salvation "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4... then they would no longer be saved.

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal 5:4 - NASB

Matthew 18 "forgiveness revoked"
31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should repay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

========================

Isaiah 5
What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;

The Calvinist has "The answer" to God's lament where God says "what MORE could I have done.. that I have not done?"

The OSAS model says "you could have turned them into robots...'

Hebrews, another excellent letter to refute "works-based" salvation. Let's start at the beginning of that chapter:

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God...-Hebrews 6:1

Nice - but does not rescue OSAS from Hebrews 6.

Here is how that chapter ends:

17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. - Hebrews 6:17-18

Indeed - that is how Hebrews 6 ends... but does not rescue OSAS from the chapter. (t
Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
he section of Hebrews 6 your post does not address)