OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

[Bobber]

Wrong on every level, you said so much wrong, I can't even begin to explain your mistakes to you.

One last attempt.

No you can spare me as you put it YOUR one last attempt. I don't need your condescending attitude which I think is garbage. Go on to someone else.

 

[JIMINZ]

jjjjjjj

 

[BobRyan]

And? Christ knows that the Law doesn't justify anyone

True -- but you will not get to heaven "taking God's name in vain all the way there" neither does "persevere firm to the end" mean "just keep on taking God's name in vain... that is just fine"..

Even the 3 and 5 point Calvinists will admit to that obvious Bible detail.

Why did you choose the sin of taking God's Name in vain? That isn't the only sin there is.

True but is one of the best ones to mention since most people have a hard time trying to bring themselves to the point of defending the practice of taking God's name in vain.

(And we know, if we offend in one point, we offend in all. - James 2:10)

true -- I just like picking one that people are very reluctant to wear as a badge of honor.

If salvation depends on our good behaviour, no one has ever been saved.

True -- and yet that is not even remotely close to the point James is making in chapter 2 where you quote him.


So then back to "no taking God's name in vain"

When Paul wants to "spank" the members of a certain church for being evil - he does it this way --

1 Cor 6
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 18 "forgiveness revoked"
31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should repay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”


Notice the sort of "smack down" that Paul has for some of the unruly saints in Corinth --

1 Cor 6
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure (defeat) for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God

Hello.
The promises and guarantees in Scriptures, inspired by the holy spirit, have guaranteed

True and in the case of the examples given above we have the "guarantee" from the Holy Spirit - that turning from following Christ and then back to following the devil - will not "get you more heaven".

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

"every branch IN ME" - John 15
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[BobRyan]

I guess I don't understand all the arguing and verse tossing. The WHOLE of the Word of God is sufficient to draw from and to understand how we are to receive salvation and what it means to walk in the love of Christ. I can't and won't tell anybody they won't be in heaven nor will they certainly go to hell. I don't know anybody well enough to say such things. I know why you go to heaven and why you go to hell, but not who goes there. As far as I am concerned the Word of God is between He and I and there is nothing to argue.

If you read the Bible texts in the OP carefully you will note that they say nothing about knowing if someone "else" is going to heaven or hell.

For example that quote of 1 Cor 6 "do not be deceived" is specifically pointed at the individual reader, in a kind of "it does really matter whether you go to heaven or hell" sort of way.

 

[BobRyan]

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
he section of Hebrews 6 your post does not address)

You tell me how Hebrews 6 (and actually, the entire letter of Hebrews) tells us that salvation can be lost.

You have free will and can ignore whatever you wish. But this is an open forum and a lot of readers will see the details in those verses above and instantly know that it is the 'saved' that are " enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come"

They will instantly realize that is a description of the saved and not the experience of the lost.

Irrefutable.

what is more there is no Bible warning against "turning from being lost so as to become lost-er" no warning against "falling from being lost to being fallen-er" --- the Bible spends no time at all in such a realm.

No effort in the Bible for getting people to be lost ... but-less-lost than before.

 

[amariselle]

True -- but you will not get to heaven "taking God's name in vain all the way there" neither does "persevere firm to the end" mean "just keep on taking God's name in vain... that is just fine"..

Even the 3 and 5 point Calvinists will admit to that obvious Bible detail.

Just wondering why you keep repeating yourself. I’ve already responded to this.

True but is one of the best ones to mention since most people have a hard time trying to bring themselves to the point of defending the practice of taking God's name in vain.

You missed the point. No one is without sin, and Scripture is clear, if you offend in one point, you offend in all.

Many just bring up the more “obvious” sins, when they have a grave misunderstanding of just how deep sin goes. Either they believe their sins just aren’t as serious as that other person’s, or they believe they are entirely without sin (in the “flesh”). Both positions are false.

true -- I just like picking one that people are very reluctant to wear as a badge of honor.

No one should desire to wear any sin as a “badge of honour.” That’s an odd comment to make.

True -- and yet that is not even remotely close to the point James is making in chapter 2 where you quote him.

As James was writing to already saved believers, I am positive he understood that no one is justified by the Law in the sight of God.

However, by all means, tell me what you believe James was writing about.

So then back to "no taking God's name in vain"

When Paul wants to "spank" the members of a certain church for being evil - he does it this way --

1 Cor 6
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God

Why did you stop at verse 10? The very next verse makes it clear that Paul was not telling the Corinthian church that they had lost their salvation and were going to hell. (Though he was absolutely chastising them).

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. - 1 Corinthians 6:11

 

[amariselle]

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
he section of Hebrews 6 your post does not address)

I’ve already addressed Hebrews 6. It does not teach that people can lose salvation.

You have free will and can ignore whatever you wish.

What have I “ignored”? I took the time (over two posts) to address every single example you gave from Scripture to refute OSAS.

But this is an open forum and a lot of readers will see the details in those verses above and instantly know that it is the 'saved' that are " enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come"

They will instantly realize that is a description of the saved and not the experience of the lost.

Or, maybe they’ll choose to read the entire chapter, or better the entire letter, and carefully study it for themselves. (If they haven’t already).

Irrefutable.

what is more there is no Bible warning against "turning from being lost so as to become lost-er" no warning against "falling from being lost to being fallen-er" --- the Bible spends no time at all in such a realm.

No effort in the Bible for getting people to be lost ... but-less-lost than before.

I have no idea what you’re trying to say there. Lost is lost. Saved is saved.

 

[BobRyan]

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
he section of Hebrews 6 your post does not address)

You tell me how Hebrews 6 (and actually, the entire letter of Hebrews) tells us that salvation can be lost.

You have free will and can ignore whatever you wish. But this is an open forum and a lot of readers will see the details in those verses above and instantly know that it is the 'saved' that are " enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come"

They will instantly realize that is a description of the saved and not the experience of the lost.

Irrefutable.

what is more there is no Bible warning against "turning from being lost so as to become lost-er" no warning against "falling from being lost to being fallen-er" --- the Bible spends no time at all in such a realm.

No effort in the Bible for getting people to be lost ... but-less-lost than before.

I’ve already addressed Hebrews 6.

Carefully avoiding the verses in Hebrews 6 that I first brought in for discussion... in every post??

How is that "addressing" anything?

But I am not complaining - you have free will and can avoid all you wish. Not every reader of the thread will be willing to do the same.

 

[BobRyan]

Just wondering why you keep repeating yourself. I’ve already responded to this.

In fact you do not address those verses 6:4-7. In Hebrews 6 you address the verses before the ones we are discussing (6:4-7) then a few verses at the end.

You knew we could all see that -- right?

 

[BobRyan]

So many "creative" ways to not discuss these verses.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Or, maybe they’ll choose to read the entire chapter, or better the entire letter, and carefully study it for themselves. (If they haven’t already).

Since you claim that is "you" discussing the details of Hebrews 6:4-7 --

We will see how the objective unbiased readers respond to such a detailed review of those verses.

 

[EmSw]

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

No commentary on this verse?

 

[amariselle]

In fact you do not address those verses. In Hebrews 6 you address the verses before the ones we are discussing... then a few verses at the end.

You knew we could all see that -- right?

I guess you once again missed the point. You pulled out verses from the middle of the chapter to “prove” salvation can be lost. I was merely showing how when you look at the beginning and end of that same chapter, you can see that, in context, that Hebrews 6 does not teach salvation can be lost.

But, obviously, above all, Hebrews should be read the way it was intended, in its entirety as a letter.

 

[amariselle]

No commentary on this verse?

Actually, I did post more than just that single verse. Read the entire post. Thanks.

 

[EmSw]

You do realize you are quoting the Old Testament, right? Indeed, "the wages of sin is death...but...the gift of God is eternal life, through Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

And as far as "a righteous man" goes, we know from Scripture that there is none righteous. (Romans 3:10-12) This is precisely why we need the Saviour.

Does the OT offend you?

Ezekiel 18:24
But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

Do you not know Abraham was righteous? Do you not know Zachariah and Elizabeth were righteous? Why does one need the dying Savior when all he has to do to be righteous is to believe God, as Abraham did?

Since we know Abraham was a righteous man, does Ezekiel 18:24 apply to him?

Did God the Savior change His mind? By the way, Who is the Savior - the God of the OT or Jesus of the NT? Are there two Saviors?

 

[EmSw]

Actually, I did post more than just that single verse. Read the entire post. Thanks.

I did, and not a word on verse 21.

 

[amariselle]

So many "creative" ways to not discuss these verses.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Since you claim that is "you" discussing the details of Hebrews 6:4-7 --

We will see how the objective unbiased readers respond to such a detailed review of those verses.

In the end, it is everyone’s responsibility to “rightly divide the word of truth” for themselves. I have no authority over anyone is this regard.

If people choose to believe they can lose something they never earned or deserved in the first place, which Scripture assures us is a gift, that’s up to them.

 

[amariselle]

I did, and not a word on verse 21.

I commented on several verses, in context.

 

[Bobber]

Why did you stop at verse 10? The very next verse makes it clear that Paul was not telling the Corinthian church that they had lost their salvation and were going to hell. (Though he was absolutely chastising them).

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. - 1 Corinthians 6:11

Let's go back to that verse 7-11:

The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:11

Paul in saying "and that is what some of you were" he was saying in regard to many horribly dark sins they had allowed the sanctification process to work in them and through them. He reminding them of who and what they are now In Christ that you're a different type of people on the Earth. When other sin type come up however they must work all of them things out of themselves as well by the power and grace of God. Keep in mind Paul said this to Christians who were already saved,

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Romans 8: 13,14

 

[amariselle]

Does the OT offend you?

No. Why would it?

Ezekiel 18:24

But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

And? The Old Testament is the “Old Covenant”, and it always pointed to Christ. The Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.

Do you not know Abraham was righteous? Do you not know Zachariah and Elizabeth were righteous? Why does one need the dying Savior when all he has to do to be righteous is to believe God, as Abraham did?

Those under the “Old Covenant” were saved by faith, just as we are. (Hebrews 11) They looked forward to the coming promises, we live under the “New Covenant” where those promises have come to pass.

Since we know Abraham was a righteous man, does Ezekiel 18:24 apply to him?

Abraham was declared righteous by faith. (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:1-4, Galatians 3:5-7, James 2:23)

Did God the Savior change His mind?

No. It’s always been salvation by faith.

By the way, Who is the Savior - the God of the OT or Jesus of the NT?

The God of the OT and the God of the NT are not two separate Gods. It is the same God. And Jesus was clear that He and the Father are one. (John 10:25-30, John 14:1-11)

Are there two Saviors?

Of course not.