OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

[BobRyan]

@BobRyan About "free will", (Romans 9) (Romans 8:29-30)...

God Bless!

Its all good! Thanks

 

[BobRyan]

Anyone who is "truly" born again, would not (be able to) "fall from grace", or not "not persevere",

Anyone who is not joined to Christ "can not" be severed FROM Christ.
Anyone who is not saved by Grace to start with -- cannot "fall from Grace"

Can't lose - what you never had.

So then Gal 5:4 OSAS fails to survive the text "you have been severed FROM Christ.. you have fallen FROM Grace"

So also the "Forgiveness revoked" doctrine of Christ in Matthew 18

Galatians 5:4 in context is talking about those who "went back to law" as a means of salvation,

Under the OSAS model - the person joined to Christ and under Grace "can't go back to anything" that would result in "severed FROM Christ" and "fallen FROM Grace".

but they never would have done that in the first place, if they had truly been saved or joined to Christ

That's a circular self-conflicted statement. "The proof that they were never joined to Christ is that they became severed from Christ" -- it is self-conflicted.

"The proof that they were never standing by Grace - is that they had become fallen FROM grace" -- a self-conflicted statement.

Those statements in effect argue "had they REMAINED as they were " (lost) "instead of choosing to be severed from Christ " (lost) -- results in the illogical argument that joined-to-Christ is lost and so also is severed-from-Christ.

 

[Bobber]

Proverbs 16:9 - A man's heart plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.

Context my friend. There are many, many places in the Bible where men planned their way BUT God most certainly was not directing such steps. In times of prayer however I pray daily that God will give me wisdom, revelation and insight and yes many times I find later my plans were God directed. That doesn't mean however that EVERY thing natural men do was God directing such steps.

Proverbs 21:1 - The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Context again. People can't run off and build full fledged doctrines on single verses. 1 Tim 2:2 says,

First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be offered on behalf of all men for kings and all those in authority, so that we may lead tranquil and quite lives in all godliness and honesty. This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior.

I'm hoping we can agree that that which is good and pleasing to God (as the verse says above) must be the will of God. Notice however to have the king to do what God wants it requires the people of God on the Earth to pray, not one liners either but intercessions. There's also examples where Kings didn't do what God wanted and God didn't implant his want into them. Some times they had to be replaced because their will resisted God's.

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 18 "forgiveness revoked"
31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should repay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

And I have not idea what your talking about in Matthew 18 that talks about "forgiveness revoked" cause I'm not seeing it...? "Doctrine" might be the/your problem... (might want to read the scripture for yourself and without any preconceived notions or ideas (by man) that are just not there or are not supposed to be there)... (Just a suggestion though)...

I find your logic "illusive" just then - given the actual text in Matthew 18

Perhaps you are referring to the parable of the wicked slave, about canceling his debt, then revoking it maybe...?

There's a thought.

Christ paid for our sins, therefore it is revoked,

No wicked person today has their sins forgiven... nor will they be forgiven in the lake of fire. Rather they stand fully condemned.

Rather Romans 3:19-20 makes it clear that all the wicked world stand condemned -- not forgiven at all.

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The Gospel is not a story about 'all the world forgiven of sin'..
It is a story about "All the world condemned and in need of accepting the Gospel solution to their problem".

 

[Neogaia777]

Anyone who is not joined to Christ "can not" be severed FROM Christ.
Anyone who is not saved by Grace to start with -- cannot "fall from Grace"

Can't lose - what you never had.

So then Gal 5:4 OSAS fails to survive the text "you have been severed FROM Christ.. you have fallen FROM Grace"

So also the "Forgiveness revoked" doctrine of Christ in Matthew 18



Under the OSAS model - the person joined to Christ and under Grace "can't go back to anything" that would result in "severed FROM Christ" and "fallen FROM Grace".




That's a circular self-conflicted statement. "The proof that they were never joined to Christ is that they became severed from Christ" -- it is self-conflicted.

"The proof that they were never standing by Grace - is that they had become fallen FROM grace" -- a self-conflicted statement.

Those statements in effect argue "had they REMAINED as they were " (lost) "instead of choosing to be severed from Christ " (lost) -- results in the illogical argument that joined-to-Christ is lost and so also is severed-from-Christ.

I'll be (or appear to be) self-conflicted (and illogical) then (though it's really not)...

Cause it is not saying what your saying... Your trying to twist it to make it mean something something else when it's really quite simple...

You can't lose what you never had, and what you (truly) have, you can't lose...

Let me ask you another question: Does God do the choosing, or do we...?

God Bless!

 

[Christfan]

Are you going to respond to my comment about arminism and never knowing if youre saved or not?

 

[Neogaia777]

Matthew 18 "forgiveness revoked"
31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should repay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

If they were truly converted or saved in the first place, they would be forgiving and none of that would apply.... God does not forgive, then take away, if they were never going to be forgiving in the first place, then God would know that, and wouldn't forgive them then take it away, that's not what it (the parable) is meant to mean...

It's talking about those who Christ paid for the sins of, but they were not forgiving from their hearts toward others, and therefore, rejected that gift, and so it wound not applying to them, and their sins went unforgiven, which means they were never really forgiven (or saved) in the first place...

I find your logic "illusive" just then - given the actual text in Matthew 18

And I find yours the same...

No wicked person today has their sins forgiven...

Sorry, I should have said "believers"...

Funny that you think you can judge the wicked (ones)...? Are you God...?

Rather Romans 3:19-20 makes it clear that all the wicked world stand condemned -- not forgiven at all.

They have to accept the "free gift", and what makes it a "free gift" is that God already predetermined it/that way ahead of time, who would and would not, but we don't know and cannot judge...

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The Gospel is not a story about 'all the world forgiven of sin'..
It is a story about "All the world condemned and in need of accepting the Gospel solution to their problem".

To all who would believe and accept the free gift, their sins are forgiven, sorry I didn't say that but I didn't think it needed explaining... and I would add that proof of that is who's heart is truly converted into loving as God loves, but yet, let no man judge but God alone...

Do you love as God loves, or do you forgive as God forgives, cause I hear a great deal of judgement and judging in your words...

And what is the "gospel solution"...?

It's about having having a heart that forgives and does not judge or condemn (for a mere man) and loves as God loves or how he says a mere man should love if he is to be one of God's and be like God... That's true conversion... Are you truly converted...?

And this is how we should be and what true repentance is and means: When The Lord Jesus says “Pray for enemies” what specifially should we pray ?

God Bless!

 

[ladodgers6]

And "yet" not one single verse saying that all who are born again will "persevere firm to the end" or that those who "fall from grace are saved anyway".

I beg to differ. This post is missing what Christ came and did for His people. God's Covenant of Redemption was carried out by Christ and applied by the Holy Spirit. We need to be redeemed, because we cannot do anything to redeem ourselves. Which is why Christ signed His own Death Warrant; Christ knew what He would have to endure for us!

There is no hope, assurance, or peace for sinners in the Law. The Law is the ministry of death to sinners. The Law only brings knowledge of sin, and sin brings condemnation and death! Sinners need the good news of the Gospel. That Christ has done for us, what we could not do ourselves! This is the good news for sinners; not for the Holy or Righteous! For what do the Holy Righteous need the Gospel?

Anyway, here I will provide Scripture. And I hope you read it. Take your time in understanding it. Then reply to it.

John 6:35Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Christ said, I shall LOSE NONE of all those God has given me!

More Scripture? John 10:28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Hebrews 7​

20And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath, 21but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind,
‘You are a priest forever.’”

22This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.

23The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, 24but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

26For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

Titus 3:5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Ephesians 4:30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

I have more, I'll start with these.

 

[JIMINZ]

Funny thing though how with Adam & Eve he totally let them go with free will to choose. God hates death. He calls it an enemy. 1 Cor 15: 26 But God also knew that if FREE WILL wasn't sustained he'd no longer be LOVE. But some sadly twist their minds into believing that God took pleasure with spiritual death coming into the Earth, that which kills, steals and destroys that which snuffs out love and brings oppression. All the things that Jesus rebuked as evil some dear Christians want to believe that somehow Jesus didn't mean it.

.
Adam and Eve did not have Free Will in the way you are attempting to present it.

Adam and Eve had what was given to them by God Himself, DOMINION you do know what Dominion is don't you?

Your precious Free Will only works within the framework, parameters of Dominion.

Now you tell me.
1) Does Free Will afford the Un-Saved person the ability to stop sinning, I mean, is this person capable of determining within himself that he is going to stop sinning, can he do it as an Un-Saved person?

2) Does Free Will afford the Saved person the ability to stop sinning, I mean, is this person capable of determining within himself that he is going to stop sinning, can he do it as an Saved person?

The end of the matter is, when a person Determines within himself that he is going to stop sinning, then he has in effect set up a Law for himself, saying I will not do this or that thing again.

Mankind is not capable of keeping Law, be it Gods' Law or our own, if it were possible to do so, then we would not have needed a Savior, because we possessed the ability to overcome our sins by our Free Will.

 

[JIMINZ]

They are if they are still born-again. If they have lost their salvation "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4... then they would no longer be saved.

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal 5:4 - NASB

.
Don't you even read you own verses? "you who are seeking to be justified by law", You tell me, who was Paul speaking to?

These verses, Taken out of the context in which they were spoken by Paul, you could just about make that verse work for you, BUT, it would appear as though you are unaware, Paul in these verses was speaking to Believers, who being influenced by the Jews in their company telling the New Gentile Believers, that in order to become a real Christian they needed to follow the Law.

Gal, 5:1-4
1) Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2) Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3) For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Everyone, - - Read the remaining verses to verse 15.
Your verse out of Context doesn't say what you keep saying it says.

 

[Acts2:38]

And "yet" not one single verse saying that all who are born again will "persevere firm to the end" or that those who "fall from grace are saved anyway".

They are if they are still born-again. If they have lost their salvation "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4... then they would no longer be saved.

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal 5:4 - NASB

Matthew 18 "forgiveness revoked"
31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should repay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

"every branch IN ME" - John 15
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Matthew 13
Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Ezek 18

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

========================

Isaiah 5
What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;

The Calvinist has "The answer" to God's lament where God says "what MORE could I have done.. that I have not done?"

The OSAS model says "you could have turned them into robots...'

Great job. You certainly have studied this well. You also offered a different explanation, than I have used, of this topic that I have taken notes on.

It will always baffle me the amount of scripture that debunks OSAS, and people just don't see it.

Anyway, again, great thread here.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

Going off the bible - it's in our nature to fall away. The history of the nation of Israel shows that. Even the annointed like King Solomon and Samson didn't quite stick at it

We are no different - have we changed from a Gospel of grace into something more difficult than keeping the Old Testament Covenant?

Ok - there are some in the Church who are wolves in disguise - in there to con the gullible or hide among them for whatever reason such as take advantage of their trust . These will stick in there until they are done doing whatever they intended to do or until their cover is blown. Not saved. Period.

Then the believers who are not repentant or don't really want a relationship with Christ and don't last long in church other than talk the talk but not walk the walk. That's a grey area - who can discern what really going on in the human heart and their motives? Possibly many are not saved.

Then the believers who want to know God. some start off well and finish badly - some start of slow and finish in grand style then those who are up and down and in and out of church all the time

I've had my ups and downs and many people I started off in church with are no longer in church for some reason or other. Many just got fed up of the routine, some lost patience with other Christians or the vision of the church, some needed time out to get some sort of balance back in their lives, some just get busy with life and careers, some just get old and fatigued. So the BIG Question is "HOW DO YOU DEFINE FALLING AWAY" . What is the boundary you speak of that you are no longer saved if you cross it.

I think some churches that preach this have a problem keeping their flock. Putting them on guilt trips and fear. It doesn't usually work either. Many a church needs to look at it's own ministry to see if the problem lies there.

 

[bcbsr]

And "yet" not one single verse saying that all who are born again will "persevere firm to the end" or that those who "fall from grace are saved anyway".

You mean like:

"everyone born of God overcomes the world." 1John 5:4

"He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1Cor 1:8

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9


"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us, (ONCE SAVED)
they would have remained with us; (ALWAYS SAVED)
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

 

[Mountainmike]

Again, "never had it in the first place"...

God Bless!

So then.by your logic, you do not know whether you have been saved, if you acknowledge some believe it but it turns out "they never had it" so it turns out not to be true. One of which could therefore be you! So my suggestion is you do all the other stuff anyway, as a hedge against unscriptural OSAS being wrong!

You should consider the fact that NONE of the apostolic succession - who were the ones given the job of handing down the faith by Jesus (the true meaning of tradition) believed it. Indeed polycarp, clement, iraneus etc those who knew or were taught by apostles - all spoke out against it.

How much clearer can Clement be?
"Let us, then not only call Him Lord, for that will not save us. For He saith, 'Not everyone that saith to Me, Lord, Lord, shall be saved, but he that worketh righteousness.' Wherefore, brethren, let us confess Him by our works, by loving one another, by not committing adultery, or speaking evil of one another, or cherishing envy, but being continent, compassionate, and good. We ought also to sympathize with one another, and not be avaricious. By such works let us confess Him, and not by those that are of an opposite kind. And it is not fitting that we should fear men, but rather God. For this reason, if we should do such wicked things, the Lord hath said, 'Even though ye were gathered together to Me in My very bosom, yet if ye were not to keep My commandments, I would cast you off, and say unto you, 'Depart from Me; I know you not whence ye are, ye workers of iniquity."

Clement is clearly speaking actively - things he urges his listeners must do to be saved. Not passively..."these are the things you automatically do, if you confess Jesus as Lord"

Or take Iraneus.. the definer of heresies.
And to as many as continue in their love towards God, does He grant communion with Him. But communion with God is life and light, and the enjoyment of all the benefits which He has in store. But on as many as, according to their own choice, depart from God. He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness; and separation from God consists in the loss of all the benefits which He has in store.

Notice the phrase "continue in" - and also the choice to "depart from God" as alternative to "continue in"

And so on...

The reality is that Calvin was the first to preach OSAS.

So the question is why did Jesus not entrust such important a doctrine to his apostles (or anyone else for that matter) for the first 1500 years?
The obvious and simple answer is because it is bunkum! One of Calvins invented follies! A true manmade tradition if ever there were. Manmade by Calvin and then "handed down" as doctrine by his followers, so making it a "man made tradition"

It is also fascinating how many "sola scriptura" buffs who preach OSAS, then invent out of pure thin air the non scriptural quasi sacrament of "asking Jesus into your life" as the act they claim or suppose will save you. I was part of such groups once. I challenged some of their beliefs and discovered they had no answer!

 

[Blade]

This is not from the Father. Not OSAS or you can lose your salvation. Both come NOT from the Father. So why would one talk about it? You..YOU cant save anyone..not even your self. This road is pure faith. Get over it. MAN will NEVER be right. Man will NEVER glory in His sight. You will NEVER get this right or figure it out. He alone writes in HIS books. No one gets to see hear take a guess.

You do what HE said.. work our your OWN salvation. Not anyone elses. You point them to Christ. HE alone saves. They do not EVER come to Him because of you or some man/woman. It is written they come are drawn by the sweet sweet Holy Spirit that is IN YOU. HE did the work. We give our Father ALL the glory and praise. We take NONE! He NEVER EVER will share this.

We still see through flesh. We are born into sin. Never seeing being around the Father in all His glory and power. We see sin day in day out. He set you free..Rev.. read all the "to Him that over comes". Over comes what? Who is Him? All of us that believe. And what He said to ever Chruch.. again He said "he that has ears to hear". Who is he? Its all that believe. ALL of it..of what HE said is for ALL of us.

Get over it agian.. you will only see the flesh. He sees the heart. Thats what He ..when He does judge..is on the heart. So we see some group ONLY in the flesh. We then as MAN judge what we see based on what we personally believe and then sometimes call it "righteous anger or righteous judgment". Its not. If you cant see the heart then what are you talking about? And then we only see a moment in time. Never seeing them from birth till death.

I cant save my wife.. nor my two boys or all my family members. I have to trust in have faith in my Father that HE is the best one to do this. That He does NOT NEED me as it is written. I understand the need to prove OSAS or you can lose your salvation is true or false. Yet both are lies. YOU alone work our your own salvation. What did YOU do with the light HE gave you? What did you do with all He gave you?.

Jesus did wow SO much on this earth..things you and me have NEVER seen. Yet...they ALL left Him. They stood face to face with HIM and they ALL walked away. Dont you get it... we are man. He knows us. Your not better..your not the one that will stand by Him and never leave. HE is the one that will never leave. He is the one that will be faithful till the end. He is the one that started something in you and WILL not maybe but WILL finish it. You think becasue yo DIE its all over? No.. after this life.. you with Him.. He will finish what He started in us that never got finished here. Stop telling people how easy it is to fall or how easy it is to never sin never all away. Thats NOT your right! You have no authority what so ever here. What He GAVE YOU...like your brothers Peter and John.. GIVE IT AWAY! its HIM in you.

Time is running out... let go of this world... to him that over comes.. For HE has already over come the world.. and HE IS IN YOU. Agree or not.. I don't care. I am not right. Just focus on HIM..and get YOUR life in order. YOU live for Him in word thougth deed. With your heart soul and mind. Let HIM Lead

 

[Chinchilla]

And "yet" not one single verse saying that all who are born again will "persevere firm to the end" or that those who "fall from grace are saved anyway".

They are if they are still born-again. If they have lost their salvation "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4... then they would no longer be saved.

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal 5:4 - NASB

Matthew 18 "forgiveness revoked"
31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should repay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

"every branch IN ME" - John 15
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Matthew 13
Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Ezek 18

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

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Isaiah 5
What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;

The Calvinist has "The answer" to God's lament where God says "what MORE could I have done.. that I have not done?"

The OSAS model says "you could have turned them into robots...'

How can you fall from grace if Born of God does not sin ( not even once ) ?

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[Mark_Sam]

God described in the bible isnt contradictory like that and the ONLY criticism free-willists have are emotional ones against determinism. There is also no free will in Heaven, no choice of sinning. The list goes on and on of problems with free willism.

But free will is not arbitrary. When we grow in holiness, our free will will naturally desire to do the will of God. We humans are created with a purpose and with the image of God, and therefore our free will also has a purpose. The modern conception of free will as completely arbitrary and random exists precisely because the modern worldview has removed God from the equation.

This is worth our freewillers giving a little thought to. How can Jesus tell his disciples not to worry if none of them know from day to day if they are acceptable or unacceptable to the Father?

That's what hope is, right? I believe I am saved. But I cannot know that I am saved, with scientific precision, and I cannot know if I will endure until the end, since I cannot look into the future. But I trust in God, and place my hope in him. I love the Lord, and I trust the he will be there for me on the last day as my Saviour, Advocate and Brother, and I am not scared. But I do not know, and this element of not knowing inspires humility and child-like trust in God. And what could be more acceptable to the Father than when we trust in him, and desire to live according to his divine will?

 

[EmSw]

Anyone who is "truly" born again, would not (be able to) "fall from grace", or not "not persevere", would not "seek to be justified by law" ect, ect, or "anything else" that the Bible mentions that could "cost a person their salvation" or cause them to "lose their salvation"... Cause the "truth is" that they were never "truly" born again, nor were never "truly" saved, nor really ever truly accepted Christ into their hearts, and experienced the permanent, sealing conversion of that, in the first place... They maybe only "thought they did", but really did not...

What assurance do you have that you are saved now? What if you fall from grace next month, are you saved now? What if you only thought you experienced the sealing?

 

[EmSw]

It's not a "single verse", but there is certainly this short passage from the Gospel of John to consider:

“ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and .. of ALL that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day." ~John 6:37-40 (excerpt)​

Yours and His,
David

John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise him up on the last day.​

​

That verse makes it conditional. How does one 'come to Me'?

 

[dqhall]

Its all good! Thanks

In Christ's Sermon on the Mount, the people were advised to be concerned about doing things today and not to worry about how it might be worse tomorrow, for tomorrow will take care of itself (Matt. 6). The human mind can not comprehend being saved forever. One has a chance, if one can do God's will today.