OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

[BobRyan]

Ezek 18
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

========================

Isaiah 5
What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, pleaselet Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;

The Calvinist has "The answer" to God's lament where God says "what MORE could I have done.. that I have not done?"

The OSAS model says "you could have turned them into robots...'

You do realize you are quoting the Old Testament, right?

As did Christ in Mark 7

Mark 7:6-13
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Jesus also probably knew he was "quoting the OT"... calling it the "Word of God" and the "Commandment of God"

 

[BobRyan]

Ezek 18
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

========================

Isaiah 5
What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, pleaselet Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;

The Calvinist has "The answer" to God's lament where God says "what MORE could I have done.. that I have not done?"

The OSAS model says "you could have turned them into robots...'

The Bible has the only right answer:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

An answer God knew in Isaiah 5.

And the answer is not "turn them into robots so they will do what you want"

Each time the Calvinist answer to God's question/lament is to "tell God to do something different" they show they do not understand the text and that Calvinism exists "in spite of the text" and not "because of it"

 

[Geralt]

more logical deductions.

 

[amariselle]

Nice - but does not rescue OSAS from Hebrews 6.

You tell me how Hebrews 6 (and actually, the entire letter of Hebrews) tells us that salvation can be lost. Hebrews is a letter, the chapters and verses were added later. So, please explain how Hebrews informs us that our salvation is conditional on us and our "good behaviour."

Indeed - that is how Hebrews 6 ends... but does not rescue OSAS from the chapter. (t
Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
he section of Hebrews 6 your post does not address)

I've addressed this. As I said, Hebrews is a letter and it's meant to be read in it's entirety. But even if we do choose to isolate one chapter, for the sake of discussion, both the beginning and the end of Hebrews 6 confirm that our salvation is secure in Christ.

 

[amariselle]

An answer God knew in Isaiah 5.

And the answer is not "turn them into robots so they will do what you want"

Who said anything about God turning mankind into "robots"? I didn't.

Each time the Calvinist answer to God's question/lament is to "tell God to do something different" they show they do not understand the text and that Calvinism exists "in spite of the text" and not "because of it"

I'm not a Calvinist." Just so you know.

 

[amariselle]

As did Christ in Mark 7

And? Christ knows that the Law doesn't justify anyone to God.

Mark 7:6-13
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Jesus also probably knew he was "quoting the OT"... calling it the "Word of God" and the "Commandment of God"

Who was Jesus speaking to in those verses?

 

[notMyRealName]

And "yet" not one single verse saying that all who are born again will "persevere firm to the end" or that those who "fall from grace are saved anyway".

You don't need a verse for absolutely everything; eg., is there a verse that says "Child molestation is a sin when committed on Friday afternoons in November during a leap year?" No, there isn't, but obviously it is because it violates a whole bunch of principles spelled out elsewhere.

If you have a firm understanding of the mechanics of how regeneration works, then other doctrines that are explicitly spelled out, such as predestination, fall into place without having to be explained away (in a similar way that people try to explain away why homosexuality isn't a sin, why women pastors isn't a sin, and on and on it goes), and it becomes pretty obvious why OSAS is correct.

I won't bother commenting further because in my experience these endless discussions and debates over OSAS are fruitless. If God wants you to get it, you will.

 

[BobRyan]

And "yet" not one single verse saying that all who are born again will "persevere firm to the end" or that those who "fall from grace are saved anyway".

They are if they are still born-again. If they have lost their salvation "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4... then they would no longer be saved.

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal 5:4 - NASB

Matthew 18 "forgiveness revoked"
31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should repay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

"every branch IN ME" - John 15
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Matthew 13
Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Ezek 18

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

========================

Isaiah 5
What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;

The Calvinist has "The answer" to God's lament where God says "what MORE could I have done.. that I have not done?"

The OSAS model says "you could have turned them into robots...'

You don't need a verse for absolutely everything

I don't need a verse that says "eat breakfast before eating lunch"

But when we are talking about the salient point of a given doctrine... for example in Calvinism the doctrine that "all who are born again will persevere firm to the end"
or that "all who fall from grace are saved anyway" -- is central to the distinctive point they make... and that central doctrine ... not in the Bible.

If you have a firm understanding of the mechanics of how regeneration works, then other doctrines that are explicitly spelled out, such as predestination, fall into place without having to be explained away

You are using terms such as "explained away" in place of "found in the Bible"

OSAS only proceeds via "extreme inference" not by explicit teaching in the Bible stating its salient point.

 

[BobRyan]

And? Christ knows that the Law doesn't justify anyone

True -- but you will not get to heaven "taking God's name in vain all the way there" neither does "persevere firm to the end" mean "just keep on taking God's name in vain... that is just fine"..

Even the 3 and 5 point Calvinists will admit to that obvious Bible detail.

 

[JIMINZ]

You mean like:

"everyone born of God overcomes the world." 1John 5:4

"He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1Cor 1:8

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9


"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.
For if they had belonged to us, (ONCE SAVED)
they would have remained with us; (ALWAYS SAVED)
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

No BCBSR
He is talking about all of those other verses he cannot find because of his blindness.


And "yet" not one single verse saying that all who are born again will "persevere firm to the end" or that those who "fall from grace are saved anyway".

Here is another verse that doesn't exist.
Php. 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[St_Worm2]

It's not a "single verse", but there is certainly this short passage from the Gospel of John to consider:

“ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and .. of ALL that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day." ~John 6:37-40 (excerpt)​

Yours and His,
David

John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
.​

That verse makes it conditional. How does one 'come to Me'?

Hi Em, I'm afraid I'm going to have to answer you with more questions.

1. Both v37 and v44 above use the phrase "come to Me". It's clear that coming to Christ is 'conditioned' upon the Father's drawing of/granting permission to the individual first (v's 44, 65 .. and that ALL who are so drawn/given permission to come to Christ by the Father WILL do so and be saved v37-40), but I'm not sure why you are saying this/what point you are making (?)

2. How does one "come to Christ" You designate as a "Christian" here at CF, so why are you asking me a question like that? (unless I am misunderstanding the question somehow??) How did 'you' "come to Christ"?​

Thanks!

--David

 

[JIMINZ]

[QUOTE="Bobber, post: 72759803, member: 25895"]You know what Jiiminz? Yeah I think I do! You're talking to someone who worked part-time many years ago for a store called, "Dominion" so I think I know somewhat of what it's about.


Nope Free Will works wherever there is LOVE and God is LOVE. That is not to say creative beings can over ride the consequences of their actions or to do things they don't have a capacity to do. If one offers another an ability to walk or achieve things of a higher capacity that's within the free will's ability to receive.


Not on the level that the OT Law requires and that is absolute perfection. Now about keeping God's law through the Spirit of God's love that's a higher capacity God grants when we choose to receive it or really when we choose to receive him. Consider it this way....if I was told to run at a speed of 60 miles and hour I can't do it. IMPOSSIBLE! If however I was offered the keys of an automobile I can with my FREE WILL reach out and receive them, the keys which in essence is really the car the higher capacity. We choose to receive Christ and yes God is drawing but it's still our choice to receive or reject.


Well to use my illustration above I can't choose to step out of the car and run 60 miles an hour. If I choose to stay in Christ, Paul himself exhorted us to, "Walk in the Spirit" (or stay in the car or function in that higher capacity) and yes that is something we daily have to choose to do. Nobody is going to do it for you including God.

In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work. 2 Timothy 2: 20




Well no, can't agree with you there. God in his word in various places is exhorting us to sin not. What's wrong with a saint coming into agreement with God and to seek and endeavor to keep God's word that is by declaring who and what they are In Christ Jesus. That takes an act of the will to do that but such acknowledgments to God with thanksgiving causes the release of Gods light, life and power causing one to overcome.


Agreed but like I've shared we can choose to receive Christ but each step of sanctification we have to cooperate with God to allow his power to bring victory. Daily choices every moment and hour of the day. [/QUOTE]

.
Wrong on every level, you said so much wrong, I can't even begin to explain your mistakes to you.

One last attempt.
Are you dead to the Flesh?
Are you dead to the Law?
Are you dead to sin?

In essence, are you Born Again?

 

[amariselle]

True -- but you will not get to heaven "taking God's name in vain all the way there" neither does "persevere firm to the end" mean "just keep on taking God's name in vain... that is just fine"..

Why did you choose the sin of taking God's Name in vain? That isn't the only sin there is. (And we know, if we offend in one point, we offend in all. - James 2:10) If salvation depends on our good behaviour, no one has ever been saved.

Those who say you can't sin and still be saved, actually believe that they have stopped sinning in the "flesh." (No one has). The Law is to be a "school master" to bring us to Christ. (Galatians 3:24-25) And it is to "stop our mouths" and show us how guilty we are before God. (Romans 3:19-20)

Romans 7:14-25​

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

1 John 1:8
​

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Even the 3 and 5 point Calvinists will admit to that obvious Bible detail.

Again....I am not a Calvinist. (3 or 5 point)

 

[marineimaging]

I guess I don't understand all the arguing and verse tossing. The WHOLE of the Word of God is sufficient to draw from and to understand how we are to receive salvation and what it means to walk in the love of Christ. I can't and won't tell anybody they won't be in heaven nor will they certainly go to hell. I don't know anybody well enough to say such things. I know why you go to heaven and why you go to hell, but not who goes there. As far as I am concerned the Word of God is between He and I and there is nothing to argue.

 

[amariselle]

I guess I don't understand all the arguing and verse tossing. The WHOLE of the Word of God is sufficient to draw from and to understand how we are to receive salvation and what it means to walk in the love of Christ. I can't and won't tell anybody they won't be in heaven nor will the certainly go to hell. I don't know anybody well enough to say such things. I know why you go to heaven and why you go to hell, but not who goes there. As far as I am concerned the Word of God is between He and I and there is nothing to argue.

I’m not sure if you’re referring to me. I just want to clarify, I have never told anyone they are going to hell. I agree, that is for God alone to judge.

 

[St_Worm2]

The human mind can not comprehend being saved forever.

Hi DQ, can you comprehend always being the son of your parents? Being a child of our Abba Father is at least similar, don't you think?

One has a chance, if one can do God's will today.

Wait, perhaps I am misunderstanding your point (?) Are you saying that a person has a chance of obtaining eternal life if they are able to be obedient to God's will in this life? (IOW, that obedience is the basis upon which we receive eternal life?)

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

Romans 4
5 To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
.​

 

[St_Worm2]

The Arminian DOES know better that he is saved today because it's up to HIM to stay with God or decide to abandon God.

The calvinist won't know he's saved until the end of his life to see if he persevered and it depends on God, so he cannot be sure if he's saved...even today.

Hi GG, we Christians (whether Arminian or Calvinist) are instructed to test ourselves to make certain that we are in the faith .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 13:5.

1. How do we "test" ourselves (or others)? IOW, what are some of the proofs that we look for to make certain that we are truly saved?

2. Is this test meant for Arminians or Calvinists or both? (and if not for both, why not?)​

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

2 Corinthians 13
5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?​

.

 

[marineimaging]

I’m not sure if you’re referring to me. I just want to clarify, I have never told anyone they are going to hell. I agree, that is for God alone to judge.

Not "you" you. They you. We.

 

[amariselle]

Not "you" you. They you. We.

Okay. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[JIMINZ]

You know what Jiiminz? Yeah I think I do! You're talking to someone who worked part-time many years ago for a store called, "Dominion" so I think I know somewhat of what it's about.

.
Nope I don't think you do.