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But is it really necessary to go to even that. Why it is not enough to remain in what Jesus and Bible teaches? According to it, people can reject God, even when their sins have once been forgiven. Forgiveness is not revoked ever, but if person choses sins again, the forgiveness of the old sins is not useful anymore, because there is new sin.
When I undertook a Google search to find an article by John Piper from a couple of years back where he addressed the issue as to why Calvinists and Reformed believers are often seen as being cold and arrogant, search parameter being [John Piper: Why are Calvinists so cold] I came across a number of similar interesting articles on this topic which most should find to be interesting reading.
Over the years I have often heard both Calvinists and Reformed being referred to as "God's frozen chosen" and rather impolitely, that you can always locate a Reformed church during summer by driving around and noticing which churches have icicles hanging off them during a heat weave.
This does not mean that we Arminians are completely free of this charge, but I must admit, that overall that the when the charge is laid against the more classical Calvinists and Reformed that it does seem to have a lot of merit.
I would say that my position is the Calvinist position - or at least it was Calvin's position. Any Reformed scholar worth his salt would affirm it. However some of the Calvinist persuasion don't fully understand their view and mistakenly reject truth #2 in my list.
No I just demonstrated using the example given God is sovereign in salvation. If we are His none shall be plucked out of his hold.And that to you means no one can lose salvation?
yep -- play the 'no true scotsman' card -- they were never TRULY saved to begin with, etc
that covers the bases and leaves the OSAS doctrine pat...
This talks past my question (and its implied point).
I agree wholeheartedly that it should. Now the fact that it most cases, it does not should bother the heck out of us. We have been taught that time is the key ingredient in our growth into holiness and purity. We are wrong. But we have all fallen asleep, blissfully never questioning why no one walks as a real overcomer, with the world, the flesh and the devil under their feet.Wouldn't you agree that this initial act of salvation (regeneration and justification) necessarily leads to growth in holiness and a life of faith?
That's another popular/learned from man, comment, but as I mentioned on another thread in the same neighborhood as this one, as well as commenting on it here, that just doesn't hold up, it only sounds good to those who want it too. Only God can know that, but let me just post this from the other day and though some already commented on it, see what your take is with no preconceived input.
Do we justify ourselves? Will we raise ourselves?It is actually quite easy. If both are true, then no one truly knows they are the elect. How do we know? We persevere to the end. The danger of misunderstanding this concerning OSAS is that many “feel” saved, and ignore all the multitude of scriptures that urge us to run our race as if there is but one prize. They think participation medals allow them no need to press, to resist, to be vigilant against a never sleeping adversary. They think all that is required of them is a one time prayer, go to church and, with itching ears, accept a twisted grace that requires no real response, and never leads them deeper into a holy walk with Christ.
What many of these sadly will discover at the end is that with both of these true, they were those who endured for a while but who ignored all the verses giving us great wisdom so that we can in fact be sure we are the called ones. And by doing so, they will unfortunatey be the ones shocked at the end to find that their ignoring those clear and consistent warnings will ultimately cost them eternity.
Blessings,
Gideon
1 John 2: NKJV
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that theAntichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
It's a Biblical teaching.
What are the "fruits" of the apostasy? Denying Jesus is the Christ. We have entire forums here on the non Christian threads where posters admit they grew up Christian, made some commitment but fell away. Some even become rabid enemies of Christ. The anti theists among them.
And before you go there, you don't know if they were "never saved to begin with" or not..only God knows that. Another favorite line learned from others, not the bible, that makes no sense at all....it only sounds good to some.
Yes John says "not of us."Yet not a word of that states one cannot be born again and fall away. If it does, point it out to me, I simply do not see it in there anywhere.
I don't agree with once saved, always saved.Reformed types (aka Calvinists, Presbyterians, etc) rightly believe in the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints, aka Once Saved Always Saved. They rightly believe it because the Bible teaches it.
Jesus saves people and he doesn't fail to finally save those whom he calls and justifies.
Yet there is the reality of apostasy. Apostasy is the phenomenon of people in the church who profess faith, exhibit what appears to be evidence of salvation, receive the sacraments, and yet go on at some point to deny the faith, leave the church, and fall away from Christ.
The Bible recognizes this phenomenon and is replete with warnings against falling away. Sadly we also experience this phenomenon in our lives with those who belong to our churches and those whom we love.
Many think that the reality of apostasy and the doctrine of OSAS are incompatible. But this is not what the Reformers taught. We must reckon with two profound, Biblical truths simultaneously:
There are many wrong ways to try to reckon with these truths. The most obvious error is to deny one or the other. Many Arminians end up denying (1) while many Calvinists end up denying (2). But the Bible teaches both. The Reformers understood this very well. How do you hold these two truths together?
- Those who are truly saved cannot ultimately fall away from salvation.
- It is possible for any Christian at any time to apostatize and we must diligently strive to keep the faith until the end.
I don't agree with once saved, always saved.
I prefer: Once a son [or daughter] always a son [or daughter].
And if born of God then the PROMISE "I will never leave you nor forsake you" kicks in and God always keeps His promises.
And no, the Bible does not teach both.
Forgive me, but I am not exactly sure what you are asking of me. Can you clarify and I will do my best to answer you. Thanks in advance.Do we justify ourselves? Will we raise ourselves?
What part or action does a sovereign God have in our sanctification?
Yes John says "not of us."
I am in my mid-50's and never married. I met a girl at work who I thought was right for me. Come to find out she is Baptist... Well, not that big of problem! But... The more that woman talked! Come to find out she sees nothing wrong with mixing the party and sex life with Christianity. On confronting her over this she looks at me and says....
"Are you trying to threaten my salvation?"
Apparently she knows enough about OSAS doctrine to think that she is eternally secure and immune from any kind of punishment.
John Calvin... I wish the Catholics would have done him in while he was in France!
yep -- play the 'no true scotsman' card -- they were never TRULY saved to begin with, etc
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