ORTHODOX ONLY: Question for ArmyMatt

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

From your other posts, I don't think you actually are asking for an answer - you already have posted other references to the prophecy.
So again, (but it doesn't matter probably and no reply needed unless you like), why ask what some other group thought about the prophecy and/or about the fulfillment of the prophecy since you (apparently) already knew the Scripture ?

Another group? I ONLY want to know what the Church Fathers say, if anything, regarding the verse in Matthew. I want to know if they thought or understood it that same as I do.

 

[Lukaris]

I found some info on St John Chrysostom on this but do not have time to inquire much at this point. See: Is Matthew 2:23 An OT/NT Contradiction? | MYSTAGOGY RESOURCE CENTER

 

[ArmyMatt]

yeah, that is the point Like I said I want to know if any of the Church Fathers have anything to say about that.

yeah, I get that.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I found some info on St John Chrysostom on this but do not have time to inquire much at this point. See: Is Matthew 2:23 An OT/NT Contradiction? | MYSTAGOGY RESOURCE CENTER

Interesting take on it but not specifically what I think it means. Thanks for the reference!

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

yeah, I get that.

Did you ever come across this in your seminary training or any discussions among the other seminarians?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Did you ever come across this in your seminary training or any discussions among the other seminarians?

not specific, only that it proves the Jews at the time of Christ had an oral tradition, which of course we picked up on.

 

[Erik Nelson]

NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible (@ Bible Gateway)

Ancients sometimes built arguments on wordplays, and Jewish teachers often interpreted the OT this way. Some think that Matthew plays on Jdg 13:5: he “is to be a Nazirite.” Others, probably more commonly, believe that Matthew plays on Isa 11:1, which depicts the Messiah as a “Branch,” in Hebrew, nezer. Other Biblical passages depict the Messiah as a branch (Isa 4:2; Jer 23:5; 33:15; Zec 3:8; 6:12)...

 

[Phronema]

Nvm.

 

[Radagast]

Are there any explanations by any Church Fathers regarding Matthew 2:23 since there are no OT prophecies regarding this? I have my own idea.

Many see it as a reference to Judges 13:5-7, or as a Hebrew pun on the word netser (Isaiah 11:1), but St. John Chrysostom has this to say:

And what manner of prophet said this? Be not curious, nor overbusy. For many of the prophetic writings have been lost; and this one may see from the history of the Chronicles. For being negligent, and continually falling into ungodliness, some they suffered to perish, others they themselves burnt up and cut to pieces. The latter fact Jeremiah relates {Jeremiah 36:23}; the former, he who composed the fourth book of Kings, saying, that after a long time the book of Deuteronomy was hardly found, buried somewhere and lost. But if, when there was no barbarian there, they so betrayed their books, much more when the barbarians had overrun them. For as to the fact, that the prophet had foretold it, the apostles themselves in many places call Him a Nazarene.

Was not this then, one may say, casting a shade over the prophecy touching Bethlehem? By no means: rather this very fact was sure greatly to stir up men, and to awaken them to the search of what was said of Him. Thus, for example, Nathanael too enters on the inquiry concerning Him, saying, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? {John 1:46} For the place was of little esteem; or rather not that place only, but also the whole district of Galilee. Therefore the Pharisees said, Search and look, for out of Galilee arises no prophet. Nevertheless, He is not ashamed to be named even from thence, signifying that He needs not ought of the things of men; and His disciples also He chooses out of Galilee; everywhere cutting off the pretexts of them who are disposed to be remiss, and giving tokens that we have no need of outward things, if we practise virtue. For this cause He does not choose for Himself so much as a house; for the Son of Man, says He, has not where to lay His head {Matthew 8:20}; and when Herod is plotting against Him, He flees, and at His birth is laid in a manger, and abides in an inn, and takes a mother of low estate; teaching us to think no such thing a disgrace, and from the first outset trampling under foot the haughtiness of man, and bidding us give ourselves up to virtue only.

 

[Glaucus]

OK, it is now ORTHODOX ONLY

Good, and just to clarify, I don't like non-Orthodox coming here and doing anything but in fellowship, either. But it's really unrealistic to ask for a discussion between you and one other person in a public thread on a public forum.

Been wondering about this prophecy myself, by the way.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Good, and just to clarify, I don't like non-Orthodox coming here and doing anything but in fellowship, either. But it's really unrealistic to ask for a discussion between you and one other person in a public thread on a public forum.

Been wondering about this prophecy myself, by the way.

Of course it's against the rules in every congregational forum (not just the Orthodox one) for folks to argue. But the problem is that people either come in without knowing where they are, or simply not caring about the rules.

I think the practice of titling or requesting in the OP was/is a way to at least alert people to where they are posting.

If it cuts down on ambassadors, mods, etc. having to intervene, then that part is good at least.

But no, of course they aren't supposed to. At least we provide a forum for that exact purpose. I think it's the only one across CF.

 

[Christman811]

It is my impression that there is not the spirit of peace in this thread.

Of course, when someone addresses others in such a way that it does not communicate meekness but rather something quite unpleasant, it is often impossible to persuade them that this is what they are doing.

On another note, the original question does not require a priest, bishop, or patriarch to answer. My friend, why do you ask anyone here for the answer when someone far more resourceful than all of us put together can assist you? Do you know of whom I speak? His name is GOOGLE. If you do not like Google, there is another wise one named BING who can help you!

Do the Fathers have something to say about the prophecy in question? OF COURSE!

Let me at least help you begin your search! The following Saints and Doctors of the Church--just to name a few--have an answer for you:

St John Chrysostom
St Theophylact
St Jerome

Now, please, my friend, do the research yourself. You do not seem incapable of putting forth the effort of searching for the answer you seek. It does not seem necessary whatsoever to ask a priest publicly and also make mention that you have your own suspicions about what it could be, and furthermore, post subsequent comments saying things such as "here's a hint". You come seeking an answer, but now you would assume the role of a teacher of the Church? Please, friend, I urge you to examine your heart because your words and actions contradict themselves. I think we all desire that none speak with guile here but only with love and humility.

 

[Christman811]

St. Basil the Great's Hall Is the proper E.O. Sub forum for asking questions to avoid steering this thread off topic.

Do not be unfair with your reprimand. There are several people that arguably steer off-topic in any given thread.

 

[Tigger45]

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible (@ Bible Gateway)

Ancients sometimes built arguments on wordplays, and Jewish teachers often interpreted the OT this way. Some think that Matthew plays on Jdg 13:5: he “is to be a Nazirite.” Others, probably more commonly, believe that Matthew plays on Isa 11:1, which depicts the Messiah as a “Branch,” in Hebrew, nezer. Other Biblical passages depict the Messiah as a branch (Isa 4:2; Jer 23:5; 33:15; Zec 3:8; 6:12)...

He definitely was NOT under a nazirite vow during His lifetime.

 

[Erik Nelson]

He definitely was NOT under a nazirite vow during His lifetime.

The Apostles James and Paul took nazarit balance along with other Christians in the book of acts. How do we know about the Messiah himself?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The Apostles James and Paul took nazarit balance along with other Christians in the book of acts. How do we know about the Messiah himself?

John the baptizer was a Nazirite from birth ( Luke 1:15 ). Others like Paul took vows for a certain period of time. Nowhere in any of the NT was it ever claimed that Yeshua was a nazirite, in fact the opposite ( Matthew 11:18-19 ). It was not until the Last Supper when He took a vow ( Matthew 26:29 ).

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

It is my impression that there is not the spirit of peace in this thread.

Of course, when someone addresses others in such a way that it does not communicate meekness but rather something quite unpleasant, it is often impossible to persuade them that this is what they are doing.

On another note, the original question does not require a priest, bishop, or patriarch to answer. My friend, why do you ask anyone here for the answer when someone far more resourceful than all of us put together can assist you? Do you know of whom I speak? His name is GOOGLE. If you do not like Google, there is another wise one named BING who can help you!

Do the Fathers have something to say about the prophecy in question? OF COURSE!

Let me at least help you begin your search! The following Saints and Doctors of the Church--just to name a few--have an answer for you:

St John Chrysostom
St Theophylact
St Jerome

Now, please, my friend, do the research yourself. You do not seem incapable of putting forth the effort of searching for the answer you seek. It does not seem necessary whatsoever to ask a priest publicly and also make mention that you have your own suspicions about what it could be, and furthermore, post subsequent comments saying things such as "here's a hint". You come seeking an answer, but now you would assume the role of a teacher of the Church? Please, friend, I urge you to examine your heart because your words and actions contradict themselves. I think we all desire that none speak with guile here but only with love and humility.

I appreciate your concern, however, I wanted an ORTHODOX response, not something from Google or Bing. I specifically asked ArmyMatt because I know he went through seminary and I wanted to know if they ever discussed this.

 

[Christman811]

I appreciate your concern, however, I wanted an ORTHODOX response, not something from Google or Bing. I specifically asked ArmyMatt because I know he went through seminary and I wanted to know if they ever discussed this.

I don't know anything.