Original sin.

[fhansen]

When we have glorified bodies we can never sin. The angels in heaven now can't sin.

What questions do you have?

We won't refrain from sin due to having glorified bodies. We'll refrain from sin because we'll no longer will to sin.

 

[fhansen]

Is sin really the problem since we all sin or is unforgiven sin the real problem?

IMO, FWIW, God didn't create anyone to sin. Unforgiven sin is not the main problem, as if that's all that's necessary in order to become right in God's eyes. Rather the cause of sin is the problem-and the cause of sin is a basic injustice in man. And this injustice consists of non-communion with Him, a state we're born into now, a state Jesus came to rectify and reverse. This state of justice, this communion, is fully blossomed to the extent that we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. Then we've become who God created us to be, and then sin is automatically excluded.

 

[Sammy-San]

We won't refrain from sin due to having glorified bodies. We'll refrain from sin because we'll no longer will to sin.

Adam and the angels couldn't have reached that stage?

 

[fhansen]

Adam and the angels couldn't have reached that stage?

Yes, they could have. The question, 'Why did Adam sin?', has been contemplated for centuries but Anselm finally concluded that, simple as it sounds, Adam sinned because he willed to sin. And we're here to come to learn how and why to not will to sin, so, as we accept God's offer of forgiveness, we can also, 'go, and sin no more'.

Both of these are a matter of grace-and our cooperating with it- as we come to see the folly of being apart from God, apart from His grace that not only forgives but gives us moral integrity or righteousness as He 'puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts' (Jer 31), as He justifies us IOW, along with the gift of life and life abundantly-eternal life.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Superhero Sam. When Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, all who came after were guilty. Original Sin was with all of us. Let us therefore be the sons and daughters which God wants us to be.
In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." God is Love and God wants loving sons and daughters.
The Bible tells us to give up all selfish and unloving behaviour, to be the sons and daughters which God wants. What does God want from Us? To Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls and with all our minds. Also, to love our neighbour ( all we know and all we meet) as we love our selves: treat others as we would love to be treated. In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: Ask and you shall receive. We ask God for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all love and joy with all around us. That is what God wants from us. Ask and you shall receive. Love God and love each other. I say this with love, Sam. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Monitor. My answer has gone again, what do I do wrong? Help me please. Adam and Eve followed their own selfish wishes, ignored God`s wishes. Now we all pay the prize, we are guilty in God`s Eyes.Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[bling]

IMO, FWIW, God didn't create anyone to sin. Unforgiven sin is not the main problem, as if that's all that's necessary in order to become right in God's eyes. Rather the cause of sin is the problem-and the cause of sin is a basic injustice in man. And this injustice consists of non-communion with Him, a state we're born into now, a state Jesus came to rectify and reverse. This state of justice, this communion, is fully blossomed to the extent that we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. Then we've become who God created us to be, and then sin is automatically excluded.

I will address your comments but I asked other questions your response does not address so could you answer them?

1. Let me ask you this: “Would you prefer to be in a situation where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to obey God forever (the Garden) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God is dependent on your just accepting God’s charity (where you are today)?
   
   
   
   
2. God allowed Adam and Eve to sin and He allows all mature adults to sin, so would that mean sin has purpose and is possible necessary and also inevitable?
   
   
   
   
3. Should we be grateful to Adam and Eve for going through the Garden situation to show them and all of us how impossible it was and would be for humans to fulfill their earthly objective in such a situation?
   
   
   
   
   
   
4. Our situation is very different than Adam and Eve while they were in the Garden, but was it that different after they left the Garden?
   

You did address: Is sin really the problem since we all sin or is unforgiven sin the real problem?

You say: “God didn't create anyone to sin.”

1. Did God create Adam and Eve to not sin? Why have the tree of knowledge in the center, why make the fruit look good, why not have angels around the tree, why make it be knowledge and not the ability to spit 10 ft., and so on?
   
   
2. Adam and Eve were made “very good” but that is not perfect like Christ is perfect, so why did God not just make more Christs?
   
   
3. Christ did not sin, when we go to heaven we will not sin and it appears Christians do not have to sin (although most do seem to sin), so what is man including Adam and Eve lacking from their birth?

You said: “cause of sin is a basic injustice in man.” I do not get that at all since God is perfectly just/fair. It would be an injustice to hold in anyway me responsible and/or punished for what Adam and Eve personally did. Adam and Eve did demonstrate the fact humans could not fulfill their earthly objective in a Garden type scenario and we can be grateful to them for that.

I like and agree with your statement: “we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. Then we've become who God created us to be, and then sin is automatically excluded.”

But you say: “And this injustice consists of non-communion with Him, a state we're born into now, a state Jesus came to rectify and reverse”

Does God have a problem that Jesus “rectifies and reverses” or does man lack something that he needs to commune with God?

Is the fact Adam and Eve sinned showed they were lacking something internally in the Garden?

Are we looking to “return” to the Adam and Eve state before they sinned or are we looking to move beyond just being sinless?

 

[Galilee63]

Well yes we are sent "tests" however in terms of for example

Job

Satan tested Job and God our Heavenly Father allowed some of the tests in relation to temptations caused and sent to Job for a few purposes God allowed these series of tests to progress with Job

In many Holy Scriptures we are referred to as sinners sinful yet we always have Jesus God Holy Spirit in us through Holy Baptism Holy Confession Holy Baptism and Holy Communion. Both Spirit ually and Physically receiving Jesus God Holy Spirit into our hearts souls minds and bodies with our Lords Holy Blessings Holy Gifts and Holy Graces in His Holy Will for those whom turn to Him from hearts open to Him and Reading Gods Holy Word His Holy Spirit in Truth illuminating our hearts and souls during reading especially if we pray talk and ask Jesus Holy Spirit God to communicate in our hearts souls and illuminate our hearts souls to His Holy Passages as we read along

Satan tempts with His evil spirits pretty much regularly daily and without Jesus Holy Spirit Gods Holy Protection and through my Blessed Virgin Mother Mary's Holy Protection with Gods Holy Angels Holy Saints Holy Martyrs and Holy Souls in Heaven hearts souls here are fighting satan against his invisible temptations and attacks and not really acknowledging nor recognising that satan does in fact exist does in fact attack does in fact have large brigades of evil spirits around targeting plotting and using strategies with evil courses moving along to drag souls down to hell here and when passing over yet few Christians acknowledge this either at all and or in depth. Further many people view satan as non existent not a creature not physical and state evil is ego pride vanity etcetera and yet Jesus had satan Present in the desert speaking to Him and testing Him

When one enters more deeply into our Lord Jesus Life and Bitter Passion Sorrows Agonies Sufferings from hearts open in trust to Jesus and after regular repentance to Jesus then a heart receiving Jesus Holy Spirit into their heart and through my Blessed Virgin Mother Mary will know in their hearts that it is satan and His evil spirits tempting and attacking and that without repentance to Jesus heartfelt prayer with melted hearts open to Jesus in trust complete trust and receiving Gods Blessed Holy Sacraments from hearts then there is little protection for us from satan now and eternally

Faith alone without regular repentance of sins to Jesus in order to be given the opportunity of receiving Jesus and His Mercy now and at the hour of death won't save our souls

Jesus has said this to His Hundreds of Holy Saints forewarned in Gods Holy Word and through His Disciples on many occasions

Jesus indicated that what comes out of the mouth is from the heart and when negatives these are sins from our hearts in which we are judged

Mind where satan uses the mind and or Flesh to test
Then
Body or Mouth
Then
To Heart
Stained Souls

Repentance to Jesus from hearts as opposed to minds for our souls to be forgiven these black stains wiped clean in Jesus Precious Holy Cleansing Blood from His Two Holy Rays from His Holy Body in His Divine Mercy turning His Holy Rays upon our souls Cleansing these stains and thus removing the blockages that satan caused between Jesus Sacred Heart and our Hearts receiving Him in Holy Communion Holy Communication

Fasting breaks satans hold temptations attacks deflected back to himself satan coupled with daily Heart prayer to Jesus in trust Consecrating hearts to Jesus Sacred Heart and Consecration to our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary's Holy Immaculate Heart then pray and talk to Jesus Holy Spirit God with our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary from hearts not minds of which blocks satan and all evil always making The Sign of The Cross first with 3 or 7 Our Fathers 3 Hail Marys and 3 Glory Be's

Everything in Holy Unity with and in Jesus reflects is part of His Holy Word Holy Scriptures

 

[PeaceB]

The denial of original sin is the heresy of Pelagianism.

Orange has spoken, the matter is finished.

 

[TheSeabass]

which is why he was the "2nd adam". adam was born without sin and he fell. Jesus did not. yet again, the verses you brought up deal with Jesus being tempted and overcoming those temptations by the power of the Spirit. he was also hungry, sleepy, tired, felt pain, and even died. stepping down from where he was in the bossom of the Father to experience these things is most definitely feeling our infirmities, at least according to the verse you have cited.

Adam and Christ were alike in that both entered the world without sin as ALL men do. The difference is Adam succumbed to temptation and sinned while Christ did not. Sinning therefore is a matter of choice and not how one was passively born with sin or sin nature. Yet if man is born with original sin and a sin nature and Christ was not, then Christ was not "made like unto His brethren", not "made in the likeness of men" and was not tempted in all points as man is. The bible would not be speaking truth is saying Christ, in all respects, was human with all human attributes. So either Christ was born a sinner and a sin nature or His humanity must be denied.

and we are sinners in both instances. there's no contradiction. you're a sinner when you're in the womb and a sinner when you come out. just like you're a human being when you're in the womb and human being when you come out(despite what abortion advocates want to tell you). garbage in, garbage out(in regards to our sin nature anyway).

since comparing locations/culture to anthropology(which those verses I cited are in reference to) is a false equivalency your second point doesn't follow and I didn't use the NIV as my citation.


is it your position that Jesus, born of the Holy Spirit of God through mary, could not overcome Mary's sin nature to be born without a sin nature? such a position would be heretical in saying that the power of God is in subjection to the power of sin.

It is not possible for one to become a sinner at both places. If one becomes a sinner at conception then he cannot become a sinner at birth for he already is a sinner. So the contradiction continues. Furthermore Joh said sin is transgression of the law. What sin was committed at conception or birth to make one a sinner? Since there is not sin DNA or sin is not a substance as bacteria that is passed from one to another or sin is just not an idea that is passed one from another then a transgression must have occurred at conception or birth for sin to take place. Did the newly conceived/born lie? Steal? Murder?

As far as the NIV, I was pointing not the difference between being "born a sinner" per the NIV and "born in sin". The two are NOT the same. You used the term "born is sin" and that phrase does NOT necessitate one is born a sinner. Again, the world is full of sin and we were all born into that sinful environment but that does not make us born sinners.

Jesus was born human, born of a human woman and therefore was human is ALL respects and attributes. Therefore for the bible to be true that Christ was made in the likenesses of men, made in the likeness of His brethren then He must have been born with original sin and a sin nature if os/sin nature is true.

 

[PeaceB]

There is no original sin, else Jesus would have been born with it. Since there is no original sin, then theoretically one could go through life choosing not to sin. This did happened with Christ living His life here on earth perfectly sinless having chosen not to sin.

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned— 13 sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. 14 Yet death exercised dominion from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died through the one man’s trespass, much more surely have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abounded for the many. 16 And the free gift is not like the effect of the one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. 17 If, because of the one man’s trespass, death exercised dominion through that one, much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness exercise dominion in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. 19 For just as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 But law came in, with the result that the trespass multiplied; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, just as sin exercised dominion in death, so grace might also exercise dominion through justificationa leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
​

In your view how do many people die through one man's trespass?

And how does one man's trespass lead to condemnation for all people?

 

[TheSeabass]

Dear Monitor. My answer has gone again, what do I do wrong? Help me please. Adam and Eve followed their own selfish wishes, ignored God`s wishes. Now we all pay the prize, we are guilty in God`s Eyes.Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

What verse(s) teaches one man will be held accountable for another man's sin?

 

[TheSeabass]

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned— 13 sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. 14 Yet death exercised dominion from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died through the one man’s trespass, much more surely have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abounded for the many. 16 And the free gift is not like the effect of the one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. 17 If, because of the one man’s trespass, death exercised dominion through that one, much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness exercise dominion in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. 19 For just as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 But law came in, with the result that the trespass multiplied; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, just as sin exercised dominion in death, so grace might also exercise dominion through justificationa leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
​

In your view how do many people die through one man's trespass?

And how does one man's trespass lead to condemnation for all people?

If Romans 5:18a teaches universally that all men are unconditionally born sinners, then 18b teaches all men unconditionally will be made righteous and you are pushing the false idea of Universalism.

 

[TheSeabass]

The denial of original sin is the heresy of Pelagianism.

Orange has spoken, the matter is finished.

Original sin is a heresy of Augustine, Luther and Calvin.

 

[PeaceB]

If Romans 5:18a teaches universally that all men are unconditionally born sinners, then 18b teaches all men unconditionally will be made righteous and you are pushing the false idea of Universalism.

Regardless of whether Universalism is true or false, the questions still remain.

In your view, how do "many die[ ] through the one man’s trespass"?

In your view, how does "one man’s trespass le[a]d to condemnation for all"?

I am simply quoting Scripture. What do they mean to you? How do you interpret them?

 

[PeaceB]

Original sin is a heresy of Augustine, Luther and Calvin.

Yes, yes. Pelagius.

 

[Albion]

Adam and Christ were alike in that both entered the world without sin as ALL men do.

If Romans 5:18a teaches universally that all men are unconditionally born sinners

Original sin is a heresy of Augustine, Luther and Calvin.

Let us know when you decide which side of the Original Sin fence you're for sure on.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Adam and Christ were alike in that both entered the world without sin as ALL men do. The difference is Adam succumbed to temptation and sinned while Christ did not. Sinning therefore is a matter of choice and not how one was passively born with sin or sin nature. Yet if man is born with original sin and a sin nature and Christ was not, then Christ was not "made like unto His brethren", not "made in the likeness of men" and was not tempted in all points as man is. The bible would not be speaking truth is saying Christ, in all respects, was human with all human attributes. So either Christ was born a sinner and a sin nature or His humanity must be denied.








It is not possible for one to become a sinner at both places. If one becomes a sinner at conception then he cannot become a sinner at birth for he already is a sinner. So the contradiction continues. Furthermore Joh said sin is transgression of the law. What sin was committed at conception or birth to make one a sinner? Since there is not sin DNA or sin is not a substance as bacteria that is passed from one to another or sin is just not an idea that is passed one from another then a transgression must have occurred at conception or birth for sin to take place. Did the newly conceived/born lie? Steal? Murder?

As far as the NIV, I was pointing not the difference between being "born a sinner" per the NIV and "born in sin". The two are NOT the same. You used the term "born is sin" and that phrase does NOT necessitate one is born a sinner. Again, the world is full of sin and we were all born into that sinful environment but that does not make us born sinners.

Jesus was born human, born of a human woman and therefore was human is ALL respects and attributes. Therefore for the bible to be true that Christ was made in the likenesses of men, made in the likeness of His brethren then He must have been born with original sin and a sin nature if os/sin nature is true.

Jesus is God incarnate. The Virgin birth was necessary so He was conceived sinless.
All men are conceived in sin psalm51,Romans 3:23

 

[Sammy-San]

Dear Superhero Sam. When Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, all who came after were guilty. Original Sin was with all of us. Let us therefore be the sons and daughters which God wants us to be.
In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." God is Love and God wants loving sons and daughters.
The Bible tells us to give up all selfish and unloving behaviour, to be the sons and daughters which God wants. What does God want from Us? To Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls and with all our minds. Also, to love our neighbour ( all we know and all we meet) as we love our selves: treat others as we would love to be treated. In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: Ask and you shall receive. We ask God for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all love and joy with all around us. That is what God wants from us. Ask and you shall receive. Love God and love each other. I say this with love, Sam. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

So we are sinners before we sin?

 

[Albion]

So we are sinners before we sin?

We have Original Sin before we commit Actual Sin. That's the theological terminology and the distinction between kinds of sin.