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Featured Original sin.

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Superhero Sam, Jul 15, 2017.

  1. Superhero Sam

    Superhero Sam Newbie

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    When we reach the age of accountability, are we accountable as we would have done the same as in Adam and Eve? For example, I think before Jesus died, even babies who died were where abraham was, not in heaven, even though I'm not sure if they sinned.

    We need salvation because we are sinners, and we choose sin. Yet it seems impossible for a person to choose to never sin-it seems like a paradox to me.. It seems our situation is different from Adam and the angelic race falling from grace. I think they had the potential to be sinless forever.
     
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  2. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    OP: ..."Original sin?"...

    Q1:.." to choose to never sin.."

    Q2:..." (A&E) potential to be sinless forever..."

    OP:A:
    The doctrine of "Original sin", also called "ancestral sin," is a FALSE DOCTRINE, unsupported by Scripture and probably a result of RCC dogma.

    DEFINED?:
    1. humanity's STATE of sin resulting from the False Doctrine known as the "fall of man", (Genesis 3)
    2. stemming from A&E's "rebellion" in Eden.
    3. deficiency, or a tendency toward sin yet without collective guilt, referred to as Man's "sin nature",
    4. T = "Total Depravity" or automatic guilt of all humans through collective guilt. (Calvinistic!)

    The concept of "original sin" was first alluded to in the 2nd century by Irenaeus, a "traditional" "church father".

    My Guess/Analysis:

    1. A&E were the FIRST to disobey God's FIRST command -Adamic "SIN"..."original" is is misnomer.

    2. A&E were the "Parents" of all...including Jesus the God-Man, who was SINLESS and needed no ritual water "baptism"

    3. Mankind/angels were given the spiritual gift of "free will" to obey/disobey God when SPIRITUALLY CALLED/DRAWN.

    4. Mankind's innate spiritual "nature is to turn away FROM God and turn TO self...the "sin nature"...the "flesh".

    5. The NEW sinless Adam , i.e. Jesus, is the ONLY way to salvation. SEE: John 14:6==>The Divine Messiah came down from heaven (the TRI-UNE GOD) to save MAN from SIN / SIN(S) / SIN NATURE and eternal spiritual separation from God. Jesus RECONCILED God to Man!

    A1:
    "choosing to never sin"...= a human WORK on Man's own that is impossible to keep!

    James 2:10
    For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

    Romans 3 (ALL NASB)
    22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who BELIEVE;
    for there is no distinction;
    23 for all have sinned (ARE IMPERFECT) and fall short of the glory of God,
    24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
    25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through FAITH.

    A2:...(A&E) potential to be sinless forever...

    Not quite. God is ALL EVERYTHING. Within His power and Sovreignty, He gave to Man (including A&E) and angels the spiritual gift of "free will".

    God spiritually DRAWS/CALLS ALL Mankind's spirit to a DECISION: ACCEPT or REJECT Me and My gracious provisions ===>for the SALVATION EVENT followed by the SANCTIFICATION PROCESS..which blessings areFOR BELIEVERS ONLY
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
  3. Angel Wings 1288

    Angel Wings 1288 Active Member

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    A newborn baby has no concept of religion or God, so they are all “agnostic,” for lack of a better word, by default. But what if a baby were to die during childbirth? Would that newborn go to heaven or hell?

    Consider this. Love and mercy are defining attributes of God. So it stands to reason that God would allow a baby who died into heaven. Why on earth would a loving and merciful god send a dead baby to hell? If he did, that would go against the benevolent nature of God.
     
  4. Superhero Sam

    Superhero Sam Newbie

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    So the same is true of the angels?

    "choosing to never sin"...= a human WORK on Man's own that is impossible to keep!-that seems like a paradox to me.
     
  5. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Yes, Adam had the choice to be sinless. His original sin consisted in effectively dissociating himself from God. By his sin of disobedience God was effectively no longer the God of Adam-Adam was his own "god". This is the state of being that we all inherit from Adam. It's sometimes referred to as the "death of the soul", which is the reason why we must be "born again" or "born from above". The problem is that man cannot be who he was created to be, and possess the righteousness he was created to naturally possess, apart from God. "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matt 19:26). This is the basis of the New Covenant; this is the change that needs to be made in man. Before he can ever begin to be truly right again, his relationship-or communion-with God must first be reestablished. This is exactly what Jesus came to accomplish.

    With grace God draws us towards that end, towards Himself, towards making the right choice, towards being in the truly right or just state that He created us to exist in. Ultimately it's the choice to choose life over death, good over evil, God over no God, God over myself. And then He gives us ourselves, more fully than we have we'd ever have apart from Him. We still have the choice; it just starts with choosing Him, with the help of revelation and grace, sort of reversing Adam's original choice within ourselves.
    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
  6. Superhero Sam

    Superhero Sam Newbie

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    Since we dont, isnt it almost a paradox?
     
  7. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    I accidentally posted before I finished my previous post-and so had to go back and edit. Read it now if you don't mind and see if it makes more sense to you.
     
  8. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I'd agree, although I don't see how this connects to Original Sin, which was the subject of the discussion, according to the title.
     
  9. Superhero Sam

    Superhero Sam Newbie

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    So we cant compare our sin to satan/adam?
     
  10. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Certainly we can; but Original Sin, which you made be the topic here, is about us inheriting sin as a condition of our fallen nature.
     
  11. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    There is no original sin, else Jesus would have been born with it. Since there is no original sin, then theoretically one could go through life choosing not to sin. This did happened with Christ living His life here on earth perfectly sinless having chosen not to sin.
     
  12. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    In this life, even as we're reconciled with God-or being reconciled with Him- we will always struggle against the tendency to sin. Had Adam remained subjugated to God, this tendency, this loss of self-control, this "concupiscence" as its called, would've never gained a foothold. With the original sin and its resulting rift between humankind and God, the door was opened for all sins that followed. Once God is no longer the ultimate moral authority, morality becomes relative for all practical purposes, based on our own determination. So the doorway back to authentic morality or righteousness or justice for man can only be through God-and this is why Jesus came.

    Adam had the potential to remain sinless. According to classic theology he possessed "preternatural gifts", which included immortality, the life of God in him (sanctifying grace), as well as complete self-mastery: the subjugation of all human appetites and passions to reason or the spirit. With his choice, believing a lie, presumably believing what he preferred to believe, he forfeited all that. And his world changed immediately. He now existed in a world where the threat of death/non-existence loomed, where physical hardship and suffering (or physical evil) existed, and where sin (moral evil) abounded. He would from then on literally, directly, and viscerally know, by experience, both good and evil. And this is the world we inherit now. It's a good, awesome world. It's an evil, ugly world, made way uglier by certain choices and actions of many of our fellow humans. And none of us are immune from this to one degree or another. Pride and selfishness and jealousy and anger often direct our paths. Man is torn not only from God but also from himself, from his fellow man, and from the rest of creation. He's lost, not knowing where he came from, if anywhere, what he's here for, if anything, and where he's going, if anywhere. And perhaps too dull or distracted by foolishness to care.

    But God deemed it wise that humankind should spend time in this very world, with it's good and evil, so that we may hopefully gain the wisdom, with His help, to make the right choice, to reject evil and choose the good alone, to choose Him ultimately, above all else.

    This life is sort of a reprieve, so to speak, in God's justice, but only so that it can serve as a sort of school -of formation- where God works to not merely save the lost, but to save them as He's perfecting them, bringing them back into a state of justice and then further yet even, ultimately beyond the state Adam knew in Eden, where, while gifted like a spoiled rich kid perhaps, he was unappreciative of all he'd been given, and so, before the Fall, yet neutral in his opinion and choice vis a vis God and obedience to Him. Again, we're here to gain the wisdom to come to make the right choice, and progressively make it more firmly, to hold it more innately, with the help of grace as we progress along the path He's set out for us.

    Man was made for communion with God. That's obviously not the state we're born into now, a state that would exclude sin by it's nature.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
  13. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    God cannot know sin. :rolleyes:
     
  14. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    Then there is no original sin.
     
  15. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    The point is that Jesus is God. And that's the only way His sacrifice could be sufficient. And it drives home the point that much more that only God can save man.
     
  16. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    The point is if original sin were true, Christ would have been born with it- Hebrews 2:14-17; Hebrews 4:15; Philippians 2:6-7; Galatians 4:4...
     
  17. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    And yet it's a subtle yet extremely critical difference where Heb 4:15 tells us that "He has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet he did not sin." Original sin is the beginning of and reason for the proliferation of sin from the Fall on-and so the reason for human sin now.
     
  18. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    You actually brought up multiple topics and several questions, but I will start with above.

    Let me ask you this: “Would you prefer to be in a situation where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to obey God forever (the Garden) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God is dependent on your just accepting God’s charity (where you are today)?

    God allowed Adam and Eve to sin and He allows all mature adults to sin, so would that mean sin has purpose and is possible necessary and also inevitable?

    Should we be grateful to Adam and Eve for going through the Garden situation to show them and all of us how impossible it was and would be for humans to fulfill their earthly objective in such a situation?

    Is sin really the problem since we all sin or is unforgiven sin the real problem?

    Our situation is very different than Adam and Eve while they were in the Garden, but was it that different after they left the Garden?

    Angels are a whole other subject.
     
  19. Superhero Sam

    Superhero Sam Newbie

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    So they had to pass a test and would've been without potential to sin eventually?
     
  20. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    No.
    Sinning is not a "test".
    Try answering the simple questions I asked and lets start from there.
     
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