Original sin.

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What recompence are you refering to?

2 Corinthians 4:17
For our light and temporary affliction is producing for us an eternal glory that far outweighs our troubles.


Luke 16:19-31
19“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20“And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23“In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24“And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27“And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29“But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30“But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’31“But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
 
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bling

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Bling, I won't likely have time to fully comprehend your views, much less respond to them.

First off JAL:

You and I both do not like anyone’s answer to God being presented as ugly, when they also believe “the main problem is sin”. Yet you insist on the assumption and are not willing to change your assumption (non-negotiable for me) assuming that “sin is the main problem”. That makes it impossible to see the truth, because they contradict each other:

How can God allow people to sin if that is the main problem and there is no need for sin or reason to allow them to sin?

You need to defend your assumptions about “sin”, so we can agree on the assumptions or we will never agree on a conclusion (answer/truth).

Do you agree with:

All mature adults sin but not all mature adults wind up going to hell, so the difference between those that go to hell and those that go to heaven is not sin, but is forgiveness of sin?

The forgiveness of sin is hugely important while the sinning is inevitable for the mature adult?

God could have easily set up the Garden without a tree of knowledge nor satan running around and not had any “rule” and Adam & Eve would not sin?

There would need to be a Godly reason why Adam and Eve needed to at least possibly eventually sin, if something did not take place prior to sinning.

So what is that something which did not take place, which sin could help Adam and Eve to fulfill after they sinned?

Again I'm totally confused. If they failed to obtain Godly type love, isn't that a sin? If you say:
(1) No. Then again we're back to the innocent either being led into sin or suffering undesirable consequences.
(2) Yes. Then why not just call it sin (like everyone else) instead of these confusing rants about 'impossible situations', 'Godly type love' (etc).

Not obtaining Godly type Love is not a sin, exp: A baby who dies before becoming a mature adult does not have the opportunity to sin or obtain Godly type Love, so they go on to heaven without fulfilling their earthly objective, with only a wonderful child for parent type love.

God allows (yet does not like it) mature adults to sin, which does provide a way for them through forgiveness to obtain Godly type Love.

Do you want an unselfish, unconditional, sacrificial type Love for yourself and to be Loved like that? Most people want to be loved for how they want others to perceive them to be and not just Love them in spite of how they are.

Huh? If "it does not work", then it is indeed 'an impossible situation' and as such, their action (fall) was caused (predetermined) by this insurmountability.

How can you know “it is an impossible situation” unless you or at least an excellent representative of you experiences the situation, since from the outside it looks ideal?

Sorry, that is a non-negotiable for me. Sin is always the very worst thing in my view (and seemingly the whole Bible would apparently agree), and you're almost certainly wasting your time trying to persuade me otherwise. In fact I don't even want to debate with someone who has positive views of sin because two people operating on different assumptions cannot fruitfully discuss something. I might as well debate with an atheist or a Hindu (I just don't have the time).

I don't believe that a God who is good would create Adam, Eve, and Lucifer foreknowing their fall (and thus needlessly crucifying His own Son), when it would have been much easier to create Bob, Sue, and Vincent foreknowing their obedience. In a nutshell, I don't accept foreknowledge, but I can't really debate that any further here due to forum rules.

Benefit from sin? Non-negotiable.

Non-negotiable. Sin is man's ONLY problem.
see my first responce
 
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JAL

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First off JAL:

You and I both do not like anyone’s answer to God being presented as ugly, when they also believe “the main problem is sin”. Yet you insist on the assumption and are not willing to change your assumption (non-negotiable for me) assuming that “sin is the main problem”.
You're asking me to radically reinterpret a million verses without any logical compelling basis for me to do so. Sin is beneficial? Everything in Scripture - the whole reason Christ died - suggests the opposite.
How can God allow people to sin if that is the main problem and there is no need for sin or reason to allow them to sin?
There MUST be a reason that He allows sin. See my post #230.
Original sin.

You need to defend your assumptions about “sin”...
The burden of proof is on you. Try preaching in the pulpits on the benefits of sin. Most congregations would throw you out on your ear.
...so we can agree on the assumptions or we will never agree on a conclusion (answer/truth).
I don't see much hope for agreement here.

Do you agree with:
All mature adults sin but not all mature adults wind up going to hell, so the difference between those that go to hell and those that go to heaven is not sin, but is forgiveness of sin?
Angels didn't sin in my view. So the difference between someone going to heaven versus hell is SIN. But yes, Christ died to forgive our sins. And?

The forgiveness of sin is hugely important while the sinning is inevitable for the mature adult?
Sin wasn't inevitable for Adam and Eve. (Inevitability is not sin). They freely chose to sin.

God could have easily set up the Garden without a tree of knowledge nor satan running around and not had any “rule” and Adam & Eve would not sin?
God had no choice but to allow free will. See my post #230.

There would need to be a Godly reason why Adam and Eve needed to at least possibly eventually sin, if something did not take place prior to sinning.
False. God allowed that possibility out of His own needs, in my opinion.

So what is that something which did not take place, which sin could help Adam and Eve to fulfill after they sinned?
I think you have a tunnel vision because you're not open to the possiblity that God has a need. If God has no needs, and is perfectly good, then suffering, sin, freedom to sin (etc) would all be impossible.

Not obtaining Godly type Love is not a sin, exp: A baby who dies before becoming a mature adult does not have the opportunity to sin or obtain Godly type Love, so they go on to heaven without fulfilling their earthly objective, with only a wonderful child for parent type love.
I don't believe in innocent infants. Maybe you haven't read my posts.

God allows (yet does not like it) mature adults to sin, which does provide a way for them through forgiveness to obtain Godly type Love.

Do you want an unselfish, unconditional, sacrificial type Love for yourself and to be Loved like that? Most people want to be loved for how they want others to perceive them to be and not just Love them in spite of how they are.
Sounds like rambling because I still fail to understand what you are saying and the logic behind it.

How can you know “it is an impossible situation” unless you or at least an excellent representative of you experiences the situation, since from the outside it looks ideal?
You were the 1st to use that term. I was just trying to understand you.
 
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bling

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You're asking me to radically reinterpret a million verses without any logical compelling basis for me to do so. Sin is beneficial? Everything in Scripture - the whole reason Christ died - suggests the opposite.

No! I am not asking you to reinterpret verses on sin.

Sin created an unbelievable huge debt for the sinner.

Sin hurts God.

Yes, if we had not sinned Christ would not have had to go to the cross, but if I had not sinned I would not have accepted God’s charity (Love/grace/mercy) in the form of forgiveness and thus not have obtained Godly type Love.

God does not want us to sin.

For the most part all the verses on sin do not address: “why God allows us to sin and the benefits of sin”, but you can look at Luke 7.

There is an unbelievable huge benefit to accepting God’s forgiveness for our sins, since Jesus has taught us (Luke 7:36-50) “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”, so if you are forgiven (and accept that forgiveness as pure charity) of an unbelievable huge debt created by sin, you will automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) and I see no other way for humans to obtain this unbelievable huge Love but will listen to you?

If it takes being forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt created by sin to obtain Love, than you will first have to sin? (Sin would have purpose/benefit at least for the person prior to obtaining their initial portion of Godly type Love.)

I spent lots of time defining this Godly type Love in my first post to you.

There MUST be a reason that He allows sin. See my post #230.
Original sin.

I read your post 230 and cannot believe you are accusing me of unchristian radical ideas.

You say: “He NEEDED us for some reason. He felt He had no other choice. None.”

Yet scripture says: Acts 17:25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.

If you think about how could a created being made from scratch, provide anything for the creator of everything.

We can see how God’s Love would compel God to make humans because God can make humans, but it would be for the sake of those humans who would accept His charity even though most will refuse His charity. You might go on to say it is in a way “for God’s sake” (His Love can be expressed to needy humans), but it is really humans who are the needy ones and it is for their sake.

Again, man’s objective is driving everything.

The burden of proof is on you. Try preaching in the pulpits on the benefits of sin. Most congregations would throw you out on your ear.


I have taught lots of adult classes and preached some and have always been able to defend my views and show the issues with other views.

I am not saying Christians benefit from sinning, but the nonbeliever is in part brought to Christ by the burden sin creates (the hurting of others in the past), the huge debt He sees sin has created, how much God hates sin, the humbling effect of sin and seeing/believing the change that can occur in him through forgiveness of his sins. Sin is needed for forgiveness but that does not mean; “you should go on sinning that grace may abound”.

Angels didn't sin in my view. So the difference between someone going to heaven versus hell is SIN. But yes, Christ died to forgive our sins. And?

Wow, we know very little about angels and if they had a previous life on an earth like place and sinned there?

Humans as not spiritual beings to begin with here on earth.

NO! this is not true “…someone going to heaven versus hell is SIN” since all mature adults “sin” and yet some go to heaven and some go to hell, sin cannot be the deciding factor.

God and Christ did forgive sins without Christ going to the cross, so there is another reason for Christ going to the cross (this is the huge subject of atonement).

Sin wasn't inevitable for Adam and Eve. (Inevitability is not sin). They freely chose to sin.

They can certainly “choose” to sin and sinning still be inevitable. The fact that it is inevitable does not mean God caused it. If you live long enough you will hurt yourself some time some way, but God did not cause you to hurt yourself when it happens.


God had no choice but to allow free will. See my post #230.

Free will does not force God to allow satan in the garden or have the tree of knowledge in the Garden, so why are they there?

Why is God forced to provide “free will” anyway?

False. God allowed that possibility out of His own needs, in my opinion.

So you have a needy God?

I think you have a tunnel vision because you're not open to the possiblity that God has a need. If God has no needs, and is perfectly good, then suffering, sin, freedom to sin (etc) would all be impossible.


Wow, it is not for God’s need since God does not have any needs, but it is all for man’s need to become like God Himself in that man has Godly type Love (God is Love).

God does not need something from man, but God out of a totally unselfish Love just wants to shower man with unbelievable gifts, but the transaction of true charitable gift giving requires the receiver to accept those gifts as they were given (out of pure sacrificial charity).


I don't believe in innocent infants. Maybe you haven't read my posts.

I do.
 
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JAL

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No! I am not asking you to reinterpret verses on sin.

Sin created an unbelievable huge debt for the sinner.

Sin hurts God.

Yes, if we had not sinned Christ would not have had to go to the cross, but if I had not sinned I would not have accepted God’s charity (Love/grace/mercy) in the form of forgiveness and thus not have obtained Godly type Love.

God does not want us to sin.

For the most part all the verses on sin do not address: “why God allows us to sin and the benefits of sin”, but you can look at Luke 7.

There is an unbelievable huge benefit to accepting God’s forgiveness for our sins, since Jesus has taught us (Luke 7:36-50) “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”, so if you are forgiven (and accept that forgiveness as pure charity) of an unbelievable huge debt created by sin, you will automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) and I see no other way for humans to obtain this unbelievable huge Love but will listen to you?

If it takes being forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt created by sin to obtain Love, than you will first have to sin? (Sin would have purpose/benefit at least for the person prior to obtaining their initial portion of Godly type Love.)

I spent lots of time defining this Godly type Love in my first post to you.



I read your post 230 and cannot believe you are accusing me of unchristian radical ideas.

You say: “He NEEDED us for some reason. He felt He had no other choice. None.”

Yet scripture says: Acts 17:25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.

If you think about how could a created being made from scratch, provide anything for the creator of everything.

We can see how God’s Love would compel God to make humans because God can make humans, but it would be for the sake of those humans who would accept His charity even though most will refuse His charity. You might go on to say it is in a way “for God’s sake” (His Love can be expressed to needy humans), but it is really humans who are the needy ones and it is for their sake.

Again, man’s objective is driving everything.




I have taught lots of adult classes and preached some and have always been able to defend my views and show the issues with other views.

I am not saying Christians benefit from sinning, but the nonbeliever is in part brought to Christ by the burden sin creates (the hurting of others in the past), the huge debt He sees sin has created, how much God hates sin, the humbling effect of sin and seeing/believing the change that can occur in him through forgiveness of his sins. Sin is needed for forgiveness but that does not mean; “you should go on sinning that grace may abound”.



Wow, we know very little about angels and if they had a previous life on an earth like place and sinned there?

Humans as not spiritual beings to begin with here on earth.

NO! this is not true “…someone going to heaven versus hell is SIN” since all mature adults “sin” and yet some go to heaven and some go to hell, sin cannot be the deciding factor.

God and Christ did forgive sins without Christ going to the cross, so there is another reason for Christ going to the cross (this is the huge subject of atonement).



They can certainly “choose” to sin and sinning still be inevitable. The fact that it is inevitable does not mean God caused it. If you live long enough you will hurt yourself some time some way, but God did not cause you to hurt yourself when it happens.




Free will does not force God to allow satan in the garden or have the tree of knowledge in the Garden, so why are they there?

Why is God forced to provide “free will” anyway?



So you have a needy God?




Wow, it is not for God’s need since God does not have any needs, but it is all for man’s need to become like God Himself in that man has Godly type Love (God is Love).

God does not need something from man, but God out of a totally unselfish Love just wants to shower man with unbelievable gifts, but the transaction of true charitable gift giving requires the receiver to accept those gifts as they were given (out of pure sacrificial charity).

I do.
Sorry there's too much miscommunication and differing assumptions between us for me to be able to fully engage with you right now. One moment I think you're speaking of an impossible or inevitable situation, then nay, then yay again. One moment I think you're speaking of the benefits of sin, then nay, then yah again. I can't figure you out.

I'll make a brief reply. Yes, God is needy. This conclusion is a logical necessity. Only a jerk would needlessly make a world that allows the possibility of suffering. God is not a jerk. Therefore it logically follows that He NEEDED this world. Therefore, to claim that God has no needs is a logically self-contradictory position. I don't care if you can cite a MILLION verses that SEEM to support your self-contradictory position - it is YOUR responsibility to find an alternative interpretation of those verses.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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OP: ..."Original sin?"...

Q1:.." to choose to never sin.."

Q2:..." (A&E) potential to be sinless forever..."

OP:A:
The doctrine of "Original sin", also called "ancestral sin," is a FALSE DOCTRINE, unsupported by Scripture and probably a result of RCC dogma.

DEFINED?:
1. humanity's STATE of sin resulting from the False Doctrine known as the "fall of man", (Genesis 3)
2. stemming from A&E's "rebellion" in Eden.
3. deficiency, or a tendency toward sin yet without collective guilt, referred to as Man's "sin nature",
4. T = "Total Depravity" or automatic guilt of all humans through collective guilt. (Calvinistic!)

The concept of "original sin" was first alluded to in the 2nd century by Irenaeus, a "traditional" "church father".

My Guess/Analysis:

1. A&E were the FIRST to disobey God's FIRST command -Adamic "SIN"..."original" is is misnomer.

2. A&E were the "Parents" of all...including Jesus the God-Man, who was SINLESS and needed no ritual water "baptism"

3. Mankind/angels were given the spiritual gift of "free will" to obey/disobey God when SPIRITUALLY CALLED/DRAWN.

4. Mankind's innate spiritual "nature is to turn away FROM God and turn TO self...the "sin nature"...the "flesh".

5. The NEW sinless Adam , i.e. Jesus, is the ONLY way to salvation. SEE: John 14:6==>The Divine Messiah came down from heaven (the TRI-UNE GOD) to save MAN from SIN / SIN(S) / SIN NATURE and eternal spiritual separation from God. Jesus RECONCILED God to Man!

A1:
"choosing to never sin"...= a human WORK on Man's own that is impossible to keep!

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

Romans 3 (ALL NASB)
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who BELIEVE;
for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned (ARE IMPERFECT) and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through FAITH.

A2:...(A&E) potential to be sinless forever...

Not quite. God is ALL EVERYTHING. Within His power and Sovreignty, He gave to Man (including A&E) and angels the spiritual gift of "free will".

God spiritually DRAWS/CALLS ALL Mankind's spirit to a DECISION: ACCEPT or REJECT Me and My gracious provisions ===>for the SALVATION EVENT followed by the SANCTIFICATION PROCESS..which blessings areFOR BELIEVERS ONLY

We must all understand that the scriptures we have were written to sinful humans or disobedient humans so of course none of us can live by the law perfectly.That's why we must all live by faith.
 
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