Open Challenge - Explain why Israel is important from the NT

[keras]

Hank77, I do not see the parable of the fig tree, which relates to Judah going back to the Land and making it productive, as has happened now, is the same as the prophesies of how the Lord will bless His people and make the Land fruitful as they live there; which are still to happen.

If this is a prophecy as well as a simile, and the fig-tree is Israel, what/who are ALL the other trees?

The fig tree is representative of Judah, Jeremiah 24:5, Matthew 21:19 and the vine is Israel, Isaiah 5:7a, Hosea 10:1
The olive tree represents all the Lord's righteous people, be they descendants of Jacob or not. Romans 11:24

 

[Douggg]

Mat 24:32 `And from the fig-tree learn ye the simile: When already its branch may have become tender, and the leaves it may put forth, ye know that summer is nigh,
Mar 13:28 `And from the fig-tree learn ye the simile: when the branch may already become tender, and may put forth the leaves, ye know that nigh is the summer;
Luk_21:29 And he spake a simile to them: `See the fig-tree, and all the trees,

If this is a prophecy as well as a simile, and the fig-tree is Israel, what/who are ALL the other trees?

Hank, the other trees are the countries also named in the end times prophecies. In Ezekiel 38, Persia is Iran. Also Libya and Ethiopia. Togarmah and Gomer.... some say is Turkey and some of the 'stan countries. Those countries are unified by Islam. So Israel has to be a nation again, and Jerusalem in the center of controversy, for those nations have a country of Israel to attack. It's all tied together.

To me, Hank, we (the world's situation) are right at that tipping point where things are going to happen so fast, it will make a person's mind swim, as the saying goes. Anything could trigger a who series of bible events.

 

[Douggg]

The fig tree is representative of Judah, Jeremiah 24:5, Matthew 21:19 and the vine is Israel, Isaiah 5:7a, Hosea 10:1
The olive tree represents all the Lord's righteous people, be they descendants of Jacob or not. Romans 11:24

Keras, I would say that the fig tree represents Jerusalem. Because it is as Jesus was about to the enter the city of Jerusalem that he cursed the fig tree, and it shortly died. He cursed it for bearing no fruit - although it was out of season for it to bear fruit, imo, because that generation of Jerusalem would not embrace him, but another generation which will embrace Jesus, at the right prophetic time.

Also, Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews gives us something to work with as far as realistically knowing how much time we have left at the most - given 1967 and a generation as 70 years.

Judah as the fig tree - we can't do much with that. Judah is not even talked about nowadays. No reality.

 

[pat34lee]

I think someone said this, but it doesn't hurt to say again.

Israel doesn't belong to the Jews or even all tribes of Israel.
It belongs to Yahweh.

Leviticus 25:23
The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine,
for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.

 

[keras]

Israel doesn't belong to the Jews or even all tribes of Israel.
It belongs to Yahweh.

Correct, but God allows His people to occupy it.
You should have posted Leviticus 25:24, where the Lord says: You must allow for the right of redemption to the original owners for any land that has been sold.
Also Jeremiah 32:44 Fields will be bought and sold, deeds signed sealed and witnessed...... As we read in Jeremiah 31, this will apply when all of the Lord's righteous people are living in all of the holy Land.

 

[Hazrus]

I still don't get all of your reasoning that the ethnic descendants of Israel/Judah/??? are more important to God than the gentiles. As a non-American "outsider" who hasn't grown up with a futurist/dispy/premill framework to theology, I truly believe you are looking at the passages you have all provided with a "Israel is special" bias.

I'll try to explain where I'm at at the moment:
Romans 11 - The gentiles are part of the people of Israel. Sure, the ethnic descendants of Israel are slightly differentiated, but only because they were called first. Note that if they reject Jesus they are gone.

Parable of the fig tree - prophesying the upcoming destruction of the Temple after the Jews did not all accept the Messiah. (Partial fulfilment)

The covenant with Abraham - descendants (fulfilled in Abraham's Seed, ie. Jesus), blessing (again, in Jesus), Land (will be fulfilled in the New Heavens and Earth).

Acts 1:6-8 - since the Church is Israel, that's what he restored/will restore the Kingdom to.

A couple of you have accused me of ignoring the OT or saying it doesn't matter anymore since we have the NT. Neither could be further from the truth. I love the OT and read it, study it, and encourage others to read it, with one caveat; it must be read in light of what Jesus has done. A lot of the OT foreshadowed what was to come once our Saviour did his incredible sacrifice on the Cross. Some brief examples:
Passover --> Jesus blood passing over our sins
Law --> shows us that no one can be righteous on their own --> we need Jesus
Land/people --> foreshadowing the New Creation and the Church

Again, to reiterate, the challenge is as follows:
1. My position is that the NT shows that Jesus' death on the cross and subsequent resurrection to Glory has extended God's blessings to the whole world.
2. As such, the people of God are now the Church.
3. If the above points are true, it follows logically that the current Land is no longer of importance.

If you can refute my argument, you win. If you can't, perhaps it might just be true!

 

[Biblewriter]

I apologize for the delay in finishing my response to the OP,but I have been very bust elsewhere. I already pointed out that the premise of the thread is basically flawed, for whether the scriptures say it in the New Testament or the Old, they are still the scriptures. But be that as it may,
contrary to the claims of naysayers, there are a significant number of New Testament prophecies concerning the end times that very specifically and explicitly mention both the land and the people of Israel. The first of these we will notice is the discourse of our Lord which is recorded in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. The parts of these two chapters that are particularly important in regard to the land are:

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matthew 24:15-21)

14 "So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. (Mark 13:14-19)

Many mistakenly take this as a warning to all Christians to flee to the mountains, and some have even made extensive preparations to hide out in the wilderness for as long as seven years. But, as our Lord explicitly stated it, this warning was specifically addressed to those who were in a particular place. Both accounts contain the explicit words “let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” This is a specific and explicit mention of the land.

We see this again in the following:

23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21:23-24)

The Greek word translated “until,” in this passage is “achri.” it is a preposition indicating that the period spoken of will come to an end. This Greek word is derived from the Greek word “achon,” which indicates a terminus, that is, an end to something. So here we see our Lord himself clearly stating that there will be a time when Jerusalem will no longer be trampled by Gentiles.

So our Lord himself clearly stated a future program for both Judea (the land) and Jerusalem (the city.)
(continued)

 

[Biblewriter]

Other New Testament prophecies explicitly mention the nation of Israel. The first of these that will take notice of is:

5 So they said to him, "In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it is written by the prophet: 6 'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, Are not the least among the rulers of Judah; For out of you shall come a Ruler Who will shepherd My people Israel.' " (Matthew 2:5-6)

We know from the New Testament itself that Israel rejected the proffered shepherding. So in actual fact, this has not happened. But here we find, in the New Testament, specific reference to the fat that it will happen. As it has not happened, we know it has to happen in the future, or the prophecy would not be true.

Again, we see this in the very words of our Savior himself, when He said:

So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28)

29 And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, 30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:29-30)

This statement of our Lord, which is recorded in two gospels, clearly says that there will be a time when the twelve apostles will be established as judges over the twelve tribes of Israel. But He did not just say that this would happen, He just as clearly said when it would happen. And that is “in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory.”
(continued)

 

[Biblewriter]

We see this again, and repeatedly, in the inspired writings of the apostles.

3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. (Romans 9:3-5)

Here, long after our Lord had been rejected and crucified, the promises still pertained to Paul’s brethren, his “countrymen according to the flesh.” The words “according to the flesh” make it absolutely clear that he was not speaking of a spiritual relationship, but instead of a fleshly relationship. This leaves no way to logically avoid the fact that the promises still pertained to the fleshly nation of Israel. That is, to the physical descendants of that ancient nation.

Many imagine that the fact that they have been rejected means that this rejection is permanent. But God has specifically and explicitly stated the very opposite:

"And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God." (Romans 9:26)

The reason for this is clearly stated:

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." (Romans 9:11-12)

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Romans 11:28-29)

God has made a choice, and that choice is not depending on any act of man. It is His election that will stand. “For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.” This is expanded in three other New Testament passages.

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, (Romans 4:13-14)

13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, "Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you." (Hebrews 6:13-14)

17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. (Galatians 3:17-18)

This last passage was said specifically about the promise of Christ. But it shows the principle we are discussing, that once God has made a promise, that promise is inviolate. Nothing can change it. Not even rebellion. This is fully developed in the following passage, which, although it is from the Old Testament, clearly states the principle being applied in these last three New Testament passages.

30 "If his sons forsake My law And do not walk in My judgments, 31 If they break My statutes And do not keep My commandments, 32 Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, And their iniquity with stripes. 33 Nevertheless My lovingkindness I will not utterly take from him, Nor allow My faithfulness to fail. 34 My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips. (Psalm 89:30-34)
(continued)

 

[Biblewriter]

Further, we are explicitly told that God has not cast away his people.

1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, (Romans 11:1-2)

The purpose for their fall is just as clearly stated.

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! 13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? (Romans 11:11-15)

And now we come to a different passage that clearly states this:

23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; (Romans 11:23-26)

This passage begins with a condition, but ends with a statement that this condition will indeed be met. The blindness imposed on Israel because of their willful unbelief will indeed come to an end. For in verse 25 we again find that word “until,” “achris” in the Greek. So here we are being told that here will be a time when the judicial blindness will be removed, and Israel will again see. And at that time, “He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.” “And so all Israel will be saved.”

This is more completely developed in the epistle to the Hebrews:

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." 13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:7-13)
(continued)

 

[Biblewriter]

Finally, we find the twelve tribes of Israel explicitly mentioned twice in the book of Revelation. First, that twelve thousand will be sealed by God from each of the twelve tribes of Isrsel:

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. (Revelation 7:2-8)

And the names of the twelve tribes will be inscribed on the gates of the city.

Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: (Revelation 21:12)
(end)

 

[keras]

Again, to reiterate, the challenge is as follows:
1. My position is that the NT shows that Jesus' death on the cross and subsequent resurrection to Glory has extended God's blessings to the whole world.
2. As such, the people of God are now the Church.
3. If the above points are true, it follows logically that the current Land is no longer of importance.

1/ Quite correct.
2/ The people of God are every individual who believes in God and has accepted the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. Not the established Church, as such.
3/ The holy Land is still important, because God will fulfil His promises to the Patriarchs, of their descendants living in peace and prosperity, in all that area given to Abraham, by an unconditional Covenant. Genesis 15:18, Isaiah 11:11-12
Their descendants are now joined, by the New Covenant of Jesus, by people of every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10 They will mostly be ethnic Israelites; some Jews, but mainly from the ten Northern tribes, who today remain scattered among the nations and are as many as the sands of the sea. It is those people who have, in the main, accepted Christianity and are the nation referred to by Jesus in Matthew 21:43.
When Jesus said to His Disciples: Go and preach the Gospel to the lost sheep of Israel. It was to the Ten Tribes He meant and they did that, Britain was evangelized in the 1st century by Joseph of Aramathea and Aristobulus.

 

[ebedmelech]

The ONLY "Israel" that's important is the "Israel of God", which is ALL who receive Christ regardless of their fleshly descendancy!

Paul makes it pretty clear in Galatians 3:29:
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

One has to understand Jesus succeeded where Israel failed! Jesus is TRUE ISRAEL!

 

[random person]

Hank77, I do not see the parable of the fig tree, which relates to Judah going back to the Land and making it productive, as has happened now, is the same as the prophesies of how the Lord will bless His people and make the Land fruitful as they live there; which are still to happen.

The fig tree is representative of Judah, Jeremiah 24:5, Matthew 21:19 and the vine is Israel, Isaiah 5:7a, Hosea 10:1
The olive tree represents all the Lord's righteous people, be they descendants of Jacob or not. Romans 11:24

the fig was cursed to be desolate as jesus pronounced the house of judah desolate too

the signs represent the ripening of the desolate fig tree for judgment.

luke 13:6-9 is the correct way to interpret matthew 24:32-34.

 

[ebedmelech]

the fig was cursed to be desolate as jesus pronounced the house of judah desolate too

the signs represent the ripening of the desolate fig tree for judgment.

luke 13:6-9 is the correct way to interpret matthew 24:32-34.

More important is the failure of those thinking fleshly Israel remains important to the end. The understanding of Jesus cursing the fig tree is Jeremiah 24.

This is not hard when one follows scripture "precept upon precept and line upon line"!!!

 

[Luke17:37]

More important is the failure of those thinking fleshly Israel remains important to the end. The understanding of Jesus cursing the fig tree is Jeremiah 24.

This is not hard when one follows scripture "precept upon precept and line upon line"!!!

I completely disagree with you, Ebed Melech, when you say that Israel is unimportant to the end.

I find it irritating that you use the Hebrew words "servant of the King" for your name and yet you diminish Israel.

Israel is still very important, she's just mostly blind until the full number of Gentiles come in (Romans 11).

 

[keras]

The ONLY "Israel" that's important is the "Israel of God", which is ALL who receive Christ regardless of their fleshly descendancy!

Very good and correct.
But we must consider the promises of God to the Patriarchs. Leviticus 26:42 To your descendants I will give this Land.
Amos 9:9 I will shake Israel among the nations and none will be lost.
The archaeological, historical, heraldic and linguistic proof is that the House of Israel migrated across Europe and now constitute the majority of the populations of the Western nations. God's beautiful Plan was that they lost their identity, but it is us that embraced Christianity, we ARE the nation that bears fruit. Matthew 21:43
Paul is actually referring to the lost tribes in Ephesians 2:11-18 We will re-join with the Jewish remnant as per Ezekiel 37.

 

[random person]

I completely disagree with you, Ebed Melech, when you say that Israel is unimportant to the end.

I find it irritating that you use the Hebrew words "servant of the King" for your name and yet you diminish Israel.

Israel is still very important, she's just mostly blind until the full number of Gentiles come in (Romans 11).

the full blessings on the gentiles never ends galatians 3:14 & ephesians 3:6.

the olive tree ultimately represents spiritual israel not physical israel. we aren't being grafted to new york or tel aviv or jerusalem. remember not all israel is israel.

there was time during old covenant israel when only 7,000 israelites remained on the olive tree the rest were clipped off for bowing their knees to baal. it was during this same time when there was separation of distinctiveness between jews and gentiles. the israelites owned that olive tree all to themselves well the ones that righteously obeyed the law and loved god. because not all israel is israel afterall.

flash forward to the first century righteous gentiles that love god are being grafted to that same olive tree, why? because the separation of distinctiveness was forever removed in christ galatians 3:26-29, ephesians 2:14-16, & colossians 3:11!

 

[random person]

the full blessings on the gentiles never ends galatians 3:14 & ephesians 3:6.

the olive tree ultimately represents spiritual israel not physical israel. we aren't being grafted to new york or tel aviv or jerusalem. remember not all israel is israel.

there was time during old covenant israel when only 7,000 israelites remained on the olive tree the rest were clipped off for bowing their knees to baal. it was during this same time when there was separation of distinctiveness between jews and gentiles. the israelites owned that olive tree all to themselves well the ones that righteously obeyed the law and loved god. because not all israel is israel afterall.

flash forward to the first century righteous gentiles that love god are being grafted to that same olive tree, why? because the separation of distinctiveness was forever removed in christ galatians 3:26-29, ephesians 2:14-16, & colossians 3:11!

update

speaking on romans 11:25, "until the" was translated from the greek achri hos which is an expression meaning "even unto a point".

thayer's "it is used of things that actually occurred and up to the beginning of which something continued" (i.e. acts of the apostles 13:46 - emphasis mine)

if your english translation includes the word "number" in romans 11:25...

bbbbbaaaaaAAAAAAADDDDDDD!

the original greek manuscripts do not include "number" only "fullness" alone. the translators of these english translations added "number" to the verse!!!!! "number" isnt supposed to be in this verse.

 

[ebedmelech]

I completely disagree with you, Ebed Melech, when you say that Israel is unimportant to the end.

I find it irritating that you use the Hebrew words "servant of the King" for your name and yet you diminish Israel.

Israel is still very important, she's just mostly blind until the full number of Gentiles come in (Romans 11).

No. Your irritated because you think the Israel of Romans 11 is the fleshly nation. You don't understand the "wild olive tree and the "natural olive tree" of Romans 11. They are grafted into one tree...and it is in that way all Israel shall be saved.

Try reading Romans 9 for what it says, and realize they are NOT all Israel who are descended from Israel. It's pretty straight forward.