• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.

Open Challenge - Explain why Israel is important from the NT

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Hazrus, Mar 30, 2016.

  1. Hazrus

    Hazrus Active Member

    275
    +88
    Christian
    Married
    Hi all,

    This was discussed in another thread, however it makes much more sense to raise it as its own separate thread.My understanding at the moment is that since Jesus has fulfilled the old covenant through his blood on the Cross and ushered in a new covenant, the physical land, temple, and being "Jewish" are no longer important. I know many Bible verses which appear to state this to be the case and at the moment it seems right to me. I would hate for Jesus to brand me a "false teacher" though - hence my challenge below.

    My challenge to you is this: what evidence can you provide from the NT stating that the physical land of Israel, the temple, and the "Jewish race" is important today, and since the Resurrection?
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    +1,727
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    ...and it shall come to pass that in the very place that it was said to them: 'You are not My people', there they shall be called the people of God. Romans 9:26
    Where was Hosea 1:10-11 and all Israel when he made that prophecy? Then in the Day of Jezreel, [means: God judges] the Day of the Lord's wrath, His people will repopulate the Land. Psalms 37:29

    There is now no Jew or Gentile, just one people of God, all true righteous believers, now deemed to be Israelites. John 10:16, Ephesians 2:14 & 4:4-6
    Revelation 5:9-10...by Your blood You bought for God people from every tribe, nation and language. They will be a royal house of priests and they shall reign on earth.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2016
  3. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

    +4,038
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Hi hazrus,

    Why would you limit this discussion only to the new covenant? It isn't like none of the old covenants no longer exist or are in force just because there is a new covenant. A covenant is basically a promise. I can make more than one promise to someone. Just because I make a new promise to someone, so long as it isn't contradictory to the old promise, the two promises can stand on their own.

    Now, admittedly the new covenant changed some of the law that God had given to Israel, but the law wasn't a covenant of any kind. It is just laws. God did tell Israel that if they honored His laws then He would protect and provide for them. They didn't and He hasn't, in many cases, provided and protected Israel. However, that doesn't change any covenant that God has made.

    God made a covenant with Abraham. That covenant was an everlasting land grant to his descendants. There was nothing in that covenant concerning Abraham's descendants being faithful to him or honoring him. There were no strings of any kind attached to the land covenant that God gave Abraham. Why, therefore, would anything that has happened in all of the world since, have any bearing on that covenant?

    God bless you.
    In Christ, Ted
     
  4. Hazrus

    Hazrus Active Member

    275
    +88
    Christian
    Married
    Ted, I am placing no limits on discussion. The challenge is to show from the NT that the physical land of Israel and the ethnic Jews are of special importance to God now, and since the resurrection.
     
  5. Matthew Twentyfour

    Matthew Twentyfour Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23

    560
    +86
    Christian
    Single
    Romans 11
     
  6. Extraneous

    Extraneous Well-Known Member

    +1,409
    Christian
    Private
    Its all spiritual, even the promised land.


    Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
     
  7. Extraneous

    Extraneous Well-Known Member

    +1,409
    Christian
    Private
    Our duty is to submit to government, not overthrow it. Our duty is not to fight any war at all, but that's what we do when we follow politicians, we fight, covet, divide, hate. We dont even see it either because it blinds us. This whole thing about the holy land is a distraction from seeking the kingdom and walking in the spirit. Lets say that God will protect the natural land of Israel, that means its not up to us but God. Its not our concern one way or another. Its sin to support politicians who would go to war and kill. God fights, not us. Spirituality is not about following earthly nations. Its about bearing our cross and seeking heaven.
     
  8. Hazrus

    Hazrus Active Member

    275
    +88
    Christian
    Married
    Mr. Matthew 24, care to expand, especially in the context of the remainder of Romans?
     
  9. Hazrus

    Hazrus Active Member

    275
    +88
    Christian
    Married
    Mr Keras, the verses you posted appear to prove the opposite of what I challenged!
     
  10. Extraneous

    Extraneous Well-Known Member

    +1,409
    Christian
    Private

    Those who are first will be last, and the last shall be first.
     
  11. Extraneous

    Extraneous Well-Known Member

    +1,409
    Christian
    Private
    Mathew 27:36 Sitting down, they kept watch over Him there. 37 And they put up over His head the accusation written against Him:

    THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
     
  12. Hazrus

    Hazrus Active Member

    275
    +88
    Christian
    Married
    What are you saying by this, I don't get it?
     
  13. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

    +4,038
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Hi extraneous,

    I appreciate your position, but I disagree. The land covenant was a covenant of an area of dirt upon the face of the earth with specific geographic boundaries. Many say, well that's all changed now. No. The covenant was a promise of land. It was given as an everlasting covenant and as far as I understand it has never been rescinded or changed in any way. Everlasting is everlasting. It has no end. Yes, what God seeks of those who love Him is a spiritual connection of love and honor and respect and trust. But the covenant given to Abram of an area of land was always and has always been a promise of a specific geographically identified area of dirt.

    I disagree that 'everything' in the Scriptures is somehow mystically spiritual. This is a 'new age' type of faith. I'm not convicted or convinced that it is the truth. Yes, Paul wrote that being a Jew is not identified by birthright, but by the intentions of the heart - to God.

    God bless you.
    In Christ, Ted

    God bless you.
    In Christ, Ted

    God bless you.
     
  14. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

    +4,038
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Hi hazrus,

    Well, I'd just caution one who tries to deny the Jews what God has freely and willingly given to them. They are the apple of His eye. Despite their rebellion, God has always loved the first people upon the earth through whom He accomplished His work of delivering to mankind the Scriptures and the Savior. God loves Israel and He is on record that a day is coming when He will renew them in belief and spirit. God has plenty of love for everyone. The Scriptures also declare that the hearts of those in Israel were hardened for the purposes of God.

    Yes, it is true that not all of Israel will receive His promise of salvation, but as a people, they are still the apple of His eye.

    Be very careful where you go with this. Let God be God and let His word stand as the truth in all things.

    God bless you.
    In Christ, Ted
    In Christ, Ted
     
  15. Extraneous

    Extraneous Well-Known Member

    +1,409
    Christian
    Private

    If people want to labor for food that perishes then they will reap what they sow. That's all i'm saying. Thanks for your reply.


    Mathew 19:29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

    Mathew 13:18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
     
  16. Extraneous

    Extraneous Well-Known Member

    +1,409
    Christian
    Private
    Those who reign on earth do so by serving others, in my opinion.
     
  17. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

    +1,322
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    CA-Conservatives
    Is is both error and unbelief to imagine that only the New Testament matters today.

    There were promises made in the Old Testament that have most certainly not been kept. And there were events prophesied in the Old Testament that have most certainly not taken place.

    So, since these things are clearly there in The Old Testament, one of three things must of certainty be true:

    Either:
    (1) These promises will be kept in the future and the prophecies events will take place in the future.

    Or:
    (2) At least the parts of the Old Testament that contained these promises and prophecies were not really the words of God.

    Or:
    (3) God lied when He made these promises and prophesied these events.

    Choices (2) and (3) totally disqualify a person as a Christian teacher. This leaves choice (1) as the only available option for any honest teacher of the scriptures.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2016
  18. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

    +4,038
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Hi extraneous,

    Yes, Jesus said that 'if a person leaves his land' for the sake of the gospel, that person will be blessed. But that's if a person chooses to leave the land of their birth, the land of their forefathers. It doesn't in anyway say or mean that God is then taking away anyone's land. It's a choice that a person can make in the furtherance of the gospel.

    If a Jew says to himself, "I'm going to leave my birthplace. The land that my forefathers possessed and I am going to travel the world teaching and explaining the gospel of the Lord to others", that person will be blessed for his effort. But none of this even insinuates that God is going to take someone's land from them. It has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the promise of God given to Abraham.

    The parable of the sower is absolutely true. But again, it has no bearing on the promise of God given to Abraham. It is merely explaining that there are different responses by different people who hear the gospel. Some hear the gospel and immediately dismiss it. Some hear the gospel and take it to heart, but then tire of the effort and turn away. Some hear the gospel and also take it to heart, but then worldly troubles come and they throw up their hands and declare 'what's the use'. Then there is the person who hears the gospel, takes it to heart, and continues in faith. Growing and maturing in their knowledge of the things of God and understanding as Peter said, 'where else will we go'. That person is wholly convinced of the truth of God. That person understands that just because they now have an abiding faith in God, troubles may still come into their life, but there isn't anywhere else to go. For those, such troubles will usually strengthen their faith.

    But none of this has any bearing whatsoever on God's promise to Abraham. It was a promise given freely to him and his descendants and as far as I know, it still stands. It is still today the same everlasting covenant that it has always been. There are even some indicators in the Scriptures that it is going to be the world's attack on Israel that brings all this to a close. It seems that at some point God is going to stand up from His throne and declare, "Enough! Son, go get your children." However, be that as it may, there are actual words written in the Scriptures that God is not going to forsake Israel forever. He still loves them and He will restore them. It is written in the Scriptures.

    There is also the parable of the vine and we must be careful not to let our pride in our salvation cause us to denigrate the Jew. God can just as easily prune one from the vine as He gave that person life in the vine. Jesus said so.

    Trust God and believe His word. God has not forsaken Israel and no, Israel is not some merely spiritual joining of people through Jesus. Yes, those of Israel whom God restores will come to faith in the Lord just as any of us have. But again, I would strongly caution anyone who tries to say that Israel, the actual people of the land of Israel, are somehow no longer important or specially blessed of God. And I would certainly want anyone who tries to tell me that God has rescinded His everlasting promise of the land of Israel, to show me concrete proof that God has actually done that. Spiritualizing everything just doesn't do it for me.

    God bless you.
    In Christ, Ted
     
  19. Hazrus

    Hazrus Active Member

    275
    +88
    Christian
    Married
    Biblewriter,

    I wholeheartedly agree that the OT is supremely important. I apologise profusely if that was not clear. I love reading the OT and have recently had some great discussions with my wife about Daniel, and just lead our bible study on a really fulfilling term of study in Joshua. It is truly amazing what the Lord did for Israel in giving them the Promised Land and I got so much out of preparing the bible studies and leading them.

    My challenge is that we should take the whole of Scripture and use this to infer meaning. Regarding "The Land" and "the Jews", what evidence do we have from the NT that they are still important to God?

    My position is that it has all changed since Jesus ushered in the New Covenant, however I have an open mind and would love to be proven wrong.
     
  20. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    +1,727
    New Zealand
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Hazrus, I did prove that the Holy Land is still important to God from the N.T. in #2.
    Where will Jesus Return to, if not to that place where it all happened before and it will again:

    Zion, the Promised Land:

    Isaiah 49:14-23 Zion says: The Lord has forsaken me. The Lord says: Can a woman forget her child? I shall never forget you. I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands. Your dwellings are always before My eyes.

    Your people will hasten back, while your enemies depart. Look around, your children gather and come to you. They will be as ornaments in the Land.

    Once the Land was desolate. Your enemies are now far away. The children born while the Land was occupied by foreigners will now say: This place is too small for us. Zion will say; who bore these children, when I was deserted, where did they come from?

    The Lord says; I shall signal to the nations, they will carefully transport My people to their Promised Land. Kings will be your sponsors and great people will serve and honour you. You will know that I am the Lord, none who trust in Me will be disappointed.

    Zion: The holy Land, forsaken and desolate, Jeremiah 22:6-7, Hosea 4:3, that is how it will be after the next prophesied event: The Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, an explosion of the sun, directed at the Middle East that will clear and cleanse the entire area. Currently most of the holy Land is occupied by atheists or false religion worshippers. The Jews will be judged, Zechariah 13:7-9, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Hosea 4:3, Zephaniah 1:18, 2 Peter 3:7

    ‘the enemies depart, they are now far away’: Psalms 83 and Micah 4:11 tell us how the surrounding nations and entities all hate Israel and want to ‘wipe them off the map’. Those attackers will all be killed, some by their own weapons; Psalms 7:12-16, and the rest of the inhabitants will flee. Jeremiah 49:4-5 & 35-37

    Your people will hasten back’: A part of Judah has returned, but very few are true believers and they all face judgement. A remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 6:13 We are told who are the Lord’s true righteous people: Romans 9:24-26, Psalms 24:3-5, Malachi 3:16-17, Galatians 3:26-29

    The Lord’s people, all those who put their trust in Him’: are gathered and transported to all the area from the Nile to the Euphrates. Isaiah 66:18b-20, Psalms 107, Jer. 23:3-4, Zechariah 9:16 On that Day their God will save them, they will sparkle like jewels in the Land.

    ‘The Promised Land’: will be regenerated and become fruitful. Joel 2:21-24, Psalms 126:1-5

    Ezekiel 36:8-12 You, mountains of Israel, put forth your branches and bear fruit, for the homecoming of your people is near. Isaiah 51:3

    Isaiah 35:1-10 Let the desert be glad, let it flower and rejoice!...Be strong, My people, fear not your God comes to save you with His vengeance and retribution. Then understanding will be given to all who couldn’t see or comprehend the Prophetic Word. A highway will appear and by that road, the Lord’s redeemed people will travel into their heritage. His holy people, set free will enter Zion with shouts of praise for their Redeemer. Gladness and joy will come upon them and suffering and sorrow will be gone.

    Psalms 48:11-14 The hills of Zion rejoice, Judah’s cities are glad. Walk about the holy Land, count the towers. Note the fortifications and buildings, so that you can tell about them to the coming generations. For this God is our God, our guide and protector, now and forever.

    Psalms 69:35-36 For God will deliver Zion and rebuild the cities of Judah. The children of those who serve Him will inherit the Land and those who love His Name will dwell there.

    Isaiah 55:11-13 You will go out with joy and be led forth in peace....the Land will rejoice at your coming.
    Reference: Revised English Bible, some verses abridged.

    That all this happens before the Return of Jesus in His glory, is made clear by Isaiah 49:23.... ‘you will know that I am the Lord’’. First, His people will gather and settle in all of the holy Land. Those who serve the Lord will inherit the Land. They will fulfil prophecies and prepare for the eventual Millennial reign of Jesus.
     
Loading...