One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

[redleghunter]

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." (Hebrews 3:12-13).

So you can have an evil heart of unbelief and depart from the living God. You can be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

But in Eternal Security, you do not need to worry about hardening yourself to the deceitfulness of sin. You got your golden ticket to Heaven. For in the OSAS belief: No believer can have a heart of unbelief and depart from the living God (even though Hebrews 3 warns us believers about this very thing).

We actually see in Hebrews 3:19 "So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

Hebrews 3 does not address believers going to a state of unbelief. The author does point to those among them saying "any of you." That does not imply those who are faithful becoming unfaithful. We could assume this but it goes against the context of the epistle to this Hebrew community. Chapter 2 warns of "neglect so great a salvation" meaning there were members of the community who did not embrace the New Covenant.

In chapter 3 as you quote from, the author addresses this category of person (unbelief not entering in the rest) in the Hebrew community. There is a firm warning but for those who do enter into the rest they are told "But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner." (Hebrews 6:9).

Why did he have to speak in this manner? Because there was a mixed bag of believers and those who had not entered into the rest of Christ. The author spends two chapters with a convincing argument on why the New Covenant is superior to the old. Therefore there were those clinging to or going back to the old covenant. The parable of soils comes to mind. We could even consider the admonishment of how the community was still nursing on milk when they should be on meat. Meaning they were being warned that their practices evoked an abandonment of the New Covenant and the serious nature of continuing in such as now informed.

Taken with the context of the epistle, this passage is not telling believers they can be born again one day and the next "unborn again."

 

[Hammster]

Most excellent quotes.

How can one quantity the above?
Sinless perfection?

Trust me, there’s nobody who’s sinless in this Thread, or any thread linked to. When you see how they act in private, it’s painfully obvious.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We actually see in Hebrews 3:19 "So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

Hebrews 3 does not address believers going to a state of unbelief. The author does point to those among them saying "any of you." That does not imply those who are faithful becoming unfaithful. We could assume this but it goes against the context of the epistle to this Hebrew community. Chapter 2 warns of "neglect so great a salvation" meaning there were members of the community who did not embrace the New Covenant.

In chapter 3 as you quote from, the author addresses this category of person (unbelief not entering in the rest) in the Hebrew community. There is a firm warning but for those who do enter into the rest they are told "But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner." (Hebrews 6:9).

Why did he have to speak in this manner? Because there was a mixed bag of believers and those who had not entered into the rest of Christ. The author spends two chapters with a convincing argument on why the New Covenant is superior to the old. Therefore there were those clinging to or going back to the old covenant. The parable of soils comes to mind. We could even consider the admonishment of how the community was still nursing on milk when they should be on meat. Meaning they were being warned that their practices evoked an abandonment of the New Covenant and the serious nature of continuing in such as now informed.

Taken with the context of the epistle, this passage is not telling believers they can be born again one day and the next "unborn again."

No. You cannot depart from Houston airport unless you were in Houston airport. You cannot depart from the living God unless you had a relationship with the living God. You cannot harden yourself to God unless you already in Satan's grip and already hardened. You cannot be warned about being deceived by the deceitfulness of sin if you already deceived by sin.

Oh, and Hebrews was written to the believer in Christ, too.

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, (Hebrews 6:1).

There is also no difference between Christian Jews and Gentile Christians in Christ.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28).

So no. I am sorry to inform you that Hebrews 3 is written to you.
You either believe Hebrews 3 as it is plainly written or you do not believe it.

 

[DamianWarS]

Romans 3-5 might be a good reference to discuss the meaning of Justification. Our standing with God.

Paul speaks a lot about this.

the then op should be "once justified always justified" even Paul uses future tense verbs when talking about salvation.

 

[redleghunter]

In addition, believing in Jesus also involves believing in everything He taught and commanded us, too.

Frankly that is the definition of belief.

If we are not obeying Jesus, then we really do not believe His words.

No Jesus equated obedience to His Words with love. He said if we love Him we will obey His commands. Then He pointed out we are to love one another as He loved us. A very much higher standard than the law.

You think Jesus taught that we can disobey Him on some level and yet we can still be okay with Him salvation wise.

No Jesus always taught from the positive aspects. He used blessed instead of cursed. He did so for a reason.

Also can you point me to where someone suggested it is ok to disobey Him "on some level?"

Also don't know what you mean by "salvationwise?" Does not compute in the Greek lexicon. Did you mean losing one's justification?

You are not reading and believing vese 27. Verse 27 says that the type of sheep that will not be snatched out of the Lord's hand are the type of sheep who FOLLOW Him. For his sheep listens to His voice and He knows them and they FOLLOW Him.

I think the OP clearly quoted Christ and you are not reading it as it is plainly stated.

There are no types of sheep in that passage but sheep. The sheep hear His Voice and follow Him.

John 10:

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

Only one category of sheep there. These sheep are actually contrasted with those who do not believe who are not named as sheep. Type is not in the text or even alluded to. I think you read your theology into that passage.

Jesus is very black and white, monolithic in this passage.

You either belong to Him or you don't.

 

[Adzinfi]

I agree it is trust and obey for a servant and child of God.

With that said, how do you quantify consistent obedience?

? Consistently NOT disobeying..!

I mean really..?you asked that?

 

[redleghunter]

No. You cannot depart from Houston airport unless you were in Houston airport. You cannot depart from the living God unless you had a relationship with the living God. You cannot harden yourself to God unless you already in Satan's grip and already hardened. You cannot be warned about being deceived by the deceitfulness of sin if you already deceived by sin.

Oh, and Hebrews was written to the believer in Christ, too.

Where in the text does it indicate those who were in Christ departed?

Where does it say believers became hardened?

Where did the author indicate "some of you have?"
There's nothing in the text but a warning to understand and preach the correct gospel as pointed out in chapters 2 and 3. Again you are injecting your theology into the text.

 

[Adzinfi]

Our will is either in bondage to sin and death or slaves to righteousness.

We are either born again or not.

We are either justified or not.

We are either children of God or not.

Addressing your hypothetical? Show me where we are temporarily plucked from the hand of Christ.

Is it every time we sin? Certain sins? How do you quantify whether or not we are currently in the fold or out and when we can be assured we are back again.

Thanks.

I never said we are plucked out at all.
I said just because another cannot pluck us does not mean we cannot willfully remove ourselves.
After all God gave him Judas Iscariot too.

 

[redleghunter]

? Consistently NOT disobeying..!

I mean really..?you asked that?

You used consistently. The word does not quantify.

How much obedience? 100%, 80%....other?

 

[redleghunter]

I never said we are plucked out at all.
I said just because another cannot pluck us does not mean we cannot willfully remove ourselves.
After all God gave him Judas Iscariot too.

Did Jesus teach we can willfully remove ourselves from His fold?

He taught there were those who accepted His words and those who were deaf to them. Once again very monolithic in speech, clear bold colors and thick lines. Jesus did not rationalize His speech to encompass the ambivalence shown on these threads.

 

[redleghunter]

So no. I am sorry to inform you that Hebrews 3 is written to you.
You either believe Hebrews 3 as it is plainly written or you do not believe it.

No the epistle is not written to us. It was written to the addressee.

Now Hebrews is for us. It is Holy Inspired Scriptures. And yes we must heed the warnings. However, this epistle cannot negate the clear teachings of Christ.

Jesus taught a concrete message. We are either His and hear Him or we are not His and deaf to His words.

Taking that concrete teaching of Christ how can you conclude a born again believer filled with the Holy Spirit is addressed as one in unbelief in Hebrews?

You can't because although there is a warning, it is to those who do not believe.

 

[redleghunter]

the then op should be "once justified always justified" even Paul uses future tense verbs when talking about salvation.

Not a bad idea.

Paul uses past present and future. There's a reason.

Justification, Sanctification and Glorification.

 

[redleghunter]

Jesus said pick up your cross, deny yourself, and come follow me. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. 1 Peter 4:1 says he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. 1 Peter 4:2 says we are to live the rest of our time here (on this Earth) not to the lusts of the flesh but to the will of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and the spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. Why is the Father perfect? Because He is holy and does not sin. In 1 Corinthians 10:13 says, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." Yet, you want me to believe otherwise?

Still not quantified.

 

[redleghunter]

As for your 1st question: Where do you see that you can sin and still be saved in these verses?

That was not my question and the above is not an answer.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Still not quantified.

See the link I gave you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That was not my question and the above is not an answer.

My question should answer your question.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No the epistle is not written to us. It was written to the addressee.

Now Hebrews is for us. It is Holy Inspired Scriptures. And yes we must heed the warnings. However, this epistle cannot negate the clear teachings of Christ.

Jesus taught a concrete message. We are either His and hear Him or we are not His and deaf to His words.

Taking that concrete teaching of Christ how can you conclude a born again believer filled with the Holy Spirit is addressed as one in unbelief in Hebrews?

You can't because although there is a warning, it is to those who do not believe.

You are not giving me any verse in Hebrews that says what you are saying, though. I have given you verses that disproves your pet theory here.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hebrews is written to the Christian.

"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." (Hebrews 3:6).

"Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession." (Hebrews 4:14)

"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised; )" (Hebrews 10:23).

 

[redleghunter]

My question should answer your question.

It does not when one is proposing a works based eternal security of the self will. If someone is going to lose their salvation they need to know how.

Now your approach does make an argument for apostasy.

However, such is an about face flip the middle digit become an enemy of the faith type deal. Not believers struggling with various sins. Like arrogance and anger.

I read most of what you linked.

What you are proposing there is not sinful perfection.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

(Hebrews 10:26-39).