One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

[Bible Highlighter]

However, such is an about face flip the middle digit become an enemy of the faith type deal. Not believers struggling with various sins. Like arrogance and anger.

Not true. Jesus says in Matthew 5:22, "...whosoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." In Matthew 5:28-29, Jesus says, "...whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if your right eye causes you to offend, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is better for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell." In Matthew 6:15, Jesus says, "...if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

If you think these words of Jesus are now undone because the New Covenant began with Christ's death, then think again. Even John says in his epistle that if you hate your brother, you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (See 1 John 3:15). In fact, John says in 1 John 3:10, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

I read most of what you linked.

What you are proposing there is not sinful perfection.

I was not expecting you to get it or understand it. Most don't these days. If you want to reply to that topic, then do so in that thread. This particular topic is not allowed to be discussed outside of the Christian Scriptures section. Hence, why I gave a thread on that topic in the Christian Scriptures section (Where it is allowed).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It does not when one is proposing a works based eternal security of the self will. If someone is going to lose their salvation they need to know how.

Now your approach does make an argument for apostasy.

Good works are a necessary part of the salvation process. If they were not then you would have to conclude that a believer can abuse children, push people down stairs, and steal things and still be saved.

Loving your neighbor is associated with the moral law like, "Do not murder, steal, covet, etc." (Romans 13:8-10). Loving your neighbor is loving the afflicted or the poor (See the Parable of the Sower in Luke 10:25-37). Loving the poor, is the same as loving the Lord (Matthew 25:31-46). It's why Jesus said that the second command is like unto the first one (Matthew 22:39).

He that does not love does not know God because God is love (1 John 4:8).
And one needs to know God (Christ) in order to be saved (See 1 John 5:12).
Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

Note: When I talk about "good works" I am talking about the "good works" the Lord does through the believer. There is no such thing as a believer looking in a mirror and screaming to his fellow brothers, "Hey everybody! Come see how good I look!" By no means. No. Double no. With an extra dose of no.

 

[redleghunter]

Not true. Jesus says in Matthew 5:22, "...whosoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." In Matthew 5:28-29, Jesus says, "...whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if your right eye causes you to offend, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is better for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell." In Matthew 6:15, Jesus says, "...if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Jason this is the same canned response you gave two other posters. Matthew 5 ends with perfection defined as The Father's Perfection. Good Providence with that. Jesus was the only One to meet this Perfection because He is the Son of God and truly God. That He did so as also Truly human is the Big story of the NT.

If you think these words of Jesus are now undone because the New Covenant began with Christ's death, then think again. Even John says in his epistle that if you hate your brother, you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (See 1 John 3:15). In fact, John says in 1 John 3:10, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

No one suggested the words are undone. I will chalk this quote above and its accusatory tone as the result of a canned response. I saw you use it three times with three different posters. You may want to whittle the point down to the actual question or statement you are responding to instead of a one size fits all.

I was not expecting you to get it or understand it. Most don't these days. If you want to reply to that topic, then do so in that thread. This particular topic is not allowed to be discussed outside of the Christian Scriptures section. Hence, why I gave a thread on that topic in the Christian Scriptures section (Where it is allowed).

No I think I got it clearly. Your approach is about what we should not be doing.

Whereas Christ and His apostles emphasized what we should be doing and did so with encouragement and love.

It took my 21 year old nephew to answer my inquiry most here have sidestepped or threw canned responses to.

Jesus said if you love Me obey Me. That statement laid heavy on the Love He has for us and how He wants us to Love each other as He loved us. This should be the bedrock foundation strategic statement of sanctification.

It's His Love that moves us away from sin. God gave us His Holy Spirit to give us the means. Paul makes this abundantly clear.

I'll come by your thread and chat a bit soon.

 

[messager777]

John 6:37-6:40

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

.
Taken in context,(the bold text) the Lord Jesus Christ was referring only to the group of 120 of His apostles and disciples of the Pentecost at ACTS.1:15.

In the same vein, at JOHN.17:9 & 20, the Lord Jesus Christ made different prayers for His apostles/disciples and for those who would believe in Him through the apostles'/disciples' word.

 

[redleghunter]

Good works are a necessary part of the salvation process. If they were not then you would have to conclude that a beleiver can abuse children, push people down stairs, and steal things and still be saved.

Good works are a result and not a cause.

2 Corinthians 5:17 makes it clear those in Christ are a new creation. So something happens. One is born again/born from above. Your posts seem to assume we are operating on our own power to change.

 

[redleghunter]

Taken in context,(the bold text) the Lord Jesus Christ was referring only to the group of 120 of His apostles and disciples of the Pentecost at ACTS.1:15.

How did you come to this conclusion?

If you follow the same logic then the Sermon on the Mount only applies to those present.

 

[redleghunter]

In the same vein, at JOHN.17:9 & 20, the Lord Jesus Christ made different prayers for His apostles/disciples and for those who would believe in Him through the apostles'/disciples' word.

The Word He gave the disciples is the same Word in verse 20.

Are you suggesting the apostles are under a different gospel than we are?

 

[GingerBeer]

One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

This one gets a thread every few weeks. The answer never changes. Some say yes and question the motives of those who disagree and some say no and do the same.

My answer is no, one is saved only when the whole story of redemption is over and the last Judgement has been said. Then the children of God are saved and the children of the devil are condemned.

'When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those at his right hand,

"Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me." ​

Then the righteous will answer him,

"Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?" ​

And the king will answer them,

"Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me." ​

Then he will say to those at his left hand,

"You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me." ​

Then they also will answer,

"Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?" ​

Then he will answer them,

"Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me." ​

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'
Matthew 25:31-46
​

 

[messager777]

The Word He gave the disciples is the same Word in verse 20.

Are you suggesting the apostles are under a different gospel than we are?

.
Historically and factually, the Lord Jesus Christ did not write the New Testament Gospel, ie there was no NT when Jesus was being crucified on the Cross at around 33AD.

The Gospel originated with Jesus but was written down by His apostles and disciples after His crucifixion, eg by Paul in the latter part of 1st century AD. You and I came to believe in the Gospel message through the written word of the apostles/disciples of Christ, ie not hearing directly from the spoken word of Jesus.

At JOHN.17, Jesus made different prayers for His apostles/disciples and those who would believe in Him through the word of His apostles/disciples. Why.? = because the apostles/disciples had the divine privilege to hear the word directly from Him. REV.21:14 says that the 12 apostles will have pre-eminent positions in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Oldmantook]

What do you mean stop believing. Can you quantify this?

Can someone stop believing after he/she becomes a Christian? Can someone become a Buddhist who was previously a believer? In Lk 8:4-15 Jesus explained one aspect of the parable of the sower. "And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away (v.13) . Jesus himself taught that someone can believe for a while but when tested, falls away.

What does continuing to believe mean as I don't see that in the text nor tense?

English translations for the most part do a lousy job of translating the Greek verb tenses. A couple that do a good job are Young's Literal Translation and the Berean Literal Bible.
For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eternal life. (BLB)

Such was not suggested by the poster. However, at what moment is one born of the Spirit? Justified?
When did Jesus say we pass from death to life? He stated clearly here John 5:24.

Truly, truly, I say to you that the one hearing My word and believing the having sent Me, he has eternal life and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (BLB)
One is indeed justified upon belief but that belief must be ONGOING belief. If one ceases to believe then one is no longer justified.

No the text does not say only the sheep who listen and follow. It says sheep. We are either sheep or not. The text is not conditional. It says clearly the sheep hear His voice and follow Him. The Father only gives Christ one type of sheep. Those who listen to His voice and those who will not be plucked.
Why did you add to this very clear passage?

So you believe that it is impossible for sheep to not listen and follow? Do you have any scriptural basis for claiming that there is only one type of sheep? On the contrary, the scriptures teach the opposite of your belief. In Lk 15 in the parable of the lost sheep, the lost sheep was a believer/follower as this one sheep was originally a part of the "ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent" (v.7). Yet this sheep strayed from the flock and became LOST (v.4). Jesus refers to this lost sheep as a SINNER (v.7). The sheep/person repents and is found. Thus your claim that the Father gives Christ only one type of sheep is contradicted by this passage. There are sheep who need no repentance in the sense that they remain in an obedient and abiding relationship with God. There are other sheep who stray, who do not listen and follow and become lost. They remain sinners and will be plucked unless they repent.

 

[Adzinfi]

Did Jesus teach we can willfully remove ourselves from His fold?

He taught there were those who accepted His words and those who were deaf to them. Once again very monolithic in speech, clear bold colors and thick lines. Jesus did not rationalize His speech to encompass the ambivalence shown on these threads.

You have .as a born again believer.both the ability to sin and the free will not to.
If you choose to sin and not cease doing so.. You have already lost your salvation .or have not yet come to salvation because in this scenario you have not yet died to self to live in Christ.

So if one has died to self what does thier life look like?Do they attend sunday and midweek study the ocasinal outvreach .do thier job buy whatever they like.drift with the world.Or do they forsake it all to obey Jesus in whatever he speaks to them about . it's the latter.
So we observe most people who advocate for osas themselves have not yet died in Christ
And are not yet living in his resurection either. And won't be classed as HIS when he comes.

He speaks very clear indeed. That they who endure Wil be saved..so some may not endure...by thier own free will.
Salvation comes by way of repentance.
This opportunity to REPENT is where Grace begins and ends.
For without what Christ has done we have no opportunity to REPENT.
This opportunity is “the gift”
We can do no works to make that opportunity available..thus it is not of works least any should boast.

But if we do not then act upon that oppurtunity by turning from disobedience (works of sin) and replacing it with Obedience (works of righteousness) then we will never be saved.
And just so,if we begin to do so..then we enter ThE WAY that leads to life.but if we renege..turn back again .we Wil not arrive at the destination of salvaltion.
And this is the whole point.
We have the present HOPE of salvation
Now.
That if we turn and obediently follow Christ forsaking sin and self he will save us from the judgment to come.

For while we hope for it we don't Get it until he comes.
So if we do not act in the opportunity to REPENT and remain and endure in obedience but instead turn back from doing so..
We WILL NOT be saved.

 

[Danthemailman]

A person has to keep the faith. There are a lot of - if - type of verses in the NT.


Hebrews 3:6

“But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.”

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."

*Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The point is that not all Hebrews have become partakers of Christ. So the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have become partakers of Christ, will have been those who have held onto their original confidence, steadfast to the end. These faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

The wording of the above verses in Hebrews is not - "and you will be saved (future indicative) if you (future indicative) persevere." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, really saved, if in the future you hold fast to Christ."

 

[Ronald]

Nonsense, the text states that they "stand fast through faith". It says nothing about them "not quite fully believing."

Reread the post, I changed it, the scripture addresses all Gentiles.

 

[PeaceB]

Right cut off for unbelief.
In Rom. 11:13. Paul says, "For I speak to you Gentiles ..."
His message was to all Gentiles, believers and unbelievers who now are parttakers of the Word of God, when prior to Christ only Jews, the chosen nation were nourished from the vine. The Bible message goes out to the world. Jesus is the source of life and truth and the world. In Him all things consist and the world is connected to the vine, life, not just spiritual life, but physical life.
Kolasis (cutting off) is used in reference to those who are then thrown into the fire, the second death. The cutting off is death, due to the wages of sin, the biggest of which is unbelief in the source of life, Jesus.

Nonsense, St. Paul is not speaking about people who never had faith in our Lord Jesus in the first place. The gentiles who will be "cut off" were already "grafted in" to the vine and had faith in Christ, which is exactly why St. Paul states that they "stand fast through faith".

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good works are a result and not a cause.

2 Corinthians 5:17 makes it clear those in Christ are a new creation. So something happens. One is born again/born from above. Your posts seem to assume we are operating on our own power to change.

This is not the invasion of the body snatchers. We have free will. Otherwise you would see all believers walking perfectly before God.

"Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall" (2 Peter 1:10).

What does never fall even mean in your universe?

I know. You need to come up with an alternative meaning in the Greek because it is something in the Bible you don't like.

2 Corinthians 7:1 says, "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

This above verse here would not make any sense if we were forced to be a certain way. It is giving us specific instructions to CLEANSE ourselves. CLEAN ourselves. Let us cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Every word of this passage has to be denied in order for your belief to work.

 

[PeaceB]

Hebrews 10 also clearly refutes OSAS. Here is the text:

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving theknowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice forsins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence oftwo or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I willrepay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is afearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
​

In the text above, the author is speaking about believers facing the "fury of fire." This is because 1) he refers to "we" at the beginning of the text. That includes at least himself, and we know that the author is a believer; 2) the text states that those facing the "fury of fire" are people who were sanctified by the blood of the new covenant; 3) the text indicates that the people facing the "fury of fire" are people who outraged the Holy Sprit, which suggests that they have the indwelling of the Holy Sprit; 4) in the text the author compares those who will face the "fury of fire" with Jews who set aside the Law of Moses. The author indicates that those who were sanctified by the blood of the new covenant (i.e. Jews and gentiles who have faith in Christ) but "go on sinning deliberately" will suffer a worse fate than Jews who had set aside the Law of Moses.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

This one gets a thread every few weeks. The answer never changes. Some say yes and question the motives of those who disagree and some say no and do the same.

My answer is no, one is saved only when the whole story of redemption is over and the last Judgement has been said. Then the children of God are saved and the children of the devil are condemned.

'When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those at his right hand,

"Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me." ​

Then the righteous will answer him,

"Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?" ​

And the king will answer them,

"Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me." ​

Then he will say to those at his left hand,

"You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me." ​

Then they also will answer,

"Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?" ​

Then he will answer them,

"Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me." ​

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'
Matthew 25:31-46​

The second greatest commandment, which is to love our neighbor is also in reference to loving and helping the poor (Like in Matthew 25:31-46). The Parable of the Good Samaritan says this (Luke 10:25-37). What we do unto a person, we do unto Jesus. This is why Jesus says the second is like unto the first (Matthew 22:39). He that does not love, does not know God, for God is love (1 John 4:8). The moral law (like do not murder, do not covet, do not steal, etc.) is to love your neighbor (Romans 13:8-10).

 

[Hammster]

Good works are a result and not a cause.

2 Corinthians 5:17 makes it clear those in Christ are a new creation. So something happens. One is born again/born from above. Your posts seem to assume we are operating on our own power to change.

I tried once to explain to him the difference between indicatives and imperatives. It fell on deaf ears.

 

[Phantasman]

His sheep hear His voice.

John 10: New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus the True Shepherd
10 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.

Why stop at verse 6?

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.


Just more proof that the OT has nothing to offer Christs gospel message.

 

[Duzt]

Just for the record, I do believe that faith is the core of one's Covenant with Christ. Good works are a plus, but not a necessity, as it is only a manifestation of faith, but not a mandatory one. Another comes grace, the blessings of faith to Christ, and the Eternal Security is already certain as God already predestined all people whom he wants to be part of His elect or not.

I agree with the OP about the part that the promise of salvation is eternal, and to be made righteous with God, the faith we keep in the Blood of Jesus have washed all our sins, past, present and future. We are sinful in nature indeed and our good works cannot save us. Thus, eternal security would make sense because God is not an bargain dealer, but a God and He's really good at it.

So, I would expect at the day's end of my life that God would welcome me as He sees me cloaked with Righteousness from Jesus' Blood.