One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

[DamianWarS]

Saved from what?

Ultimately, perishing in the lake of fire. The Second Death.

then we are not really saved are we... at best we have a promise of salvation. of course once we actually are saved we cannot be "unsaved" but until then all we can be is recipients of Christ's grace.

 

[Blade]

Well.. if there was ANY verse about saved always vs lose your salvation.. we would not be talk now. No one here has "been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come"

So much if not all most have no idea what it really means or is referring to. But know this.. this GIFT? Comes from a GOD..you and me are no God. And we dont see the heart we see one moment in time and we judge based on that moment. We do use the word at times to SCARE people.. God can not.

This is a gift given by God.. by grace. You took it received it by faith. Angels that fell knew God.. stood with GOD in all his Glory and power.. they tasted of it.. for..who knows how long. There is no hope for them. What could God say? They KNOW what they were giving up.

God never talks like this. There is no fear in God. I have never thought like this other then when I was 1st saved. Came from satan that can only lie. Then God telling me teaching me about "righteousness" that didnt come from anything I do buy my belief in His son.

I doubt anyone can just walk away..lol..never shared with the sweet sweet Holy Spirit or tasted of the power of the world to come... yeah.. NOT that many in this whole earth. But I PRAISE MY GOD in JESUS name I cant read the heart. Its HIS kids.. were talking about being away from Him for ever... not the kind of subject I really want to just CHAT with a Father about....

peace out

 

[Oldmantook]

Yes, it is referring to false converts.

While the scriptures do refer to some people who were false converts, it is a logical fallacy to assert that all of those were false converts. That would be like saying since those chickens lay brown eggs, all chickens lay brown eggs. The sample may not be representative of the whole, otherwise known as an overgeneralization.

 

[Adzinfi]

Eternal security is the doctrine that when a person is saved nothing can affect their salvation. They can never lose it for any reason. I believe Eternal Security is true because of the following verses:

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


John 6:37-6:40

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

John 10:27-29


"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."


Tell me, how can you read those verses and NOT believe in Eternal Security? Jesus is extremely clear. Out of all that the Father gives to Jesus he will lose NONE of them! In other words, Everyone's salvation is Eternally secure! It's right there in black and white! So, what do you think? Is Eternal Security real? Why or why not?

Are you suggesting that once they are in his hand all free will is removed from them ?
Just because no one can be “Taken” out of his hand does not mean they cannot choose to remove themselves because they love present pleasure of sin more.

 

[Oldmantook]

Jn 3:16 - the word "believes" in this verse is from the Greek word "pisteuōn" which is a present participle better translated as "believing." Thus one has eternal life as long as one continues believing. If a Christian for any reason stops believing, then eternal life is no longer to be had.

Jn 6:37-40 - same as above as "believes" is "pisteuōn" in v.40. Eternal life and being raised up at the last day is contingent on continuing to believe.
An understanding of the verb tenses is important. If salvation were only based upon a one-time moment of belief made in the past, only the aorist tense would be used in verses describing how to be saved. Such is not the case.

Jn 10:27-29 - the promises contained in vs. 27-29 are only promised to those sheep who "listen" and "follow." Conversely those sheep who do not listen and follow do not have the assurance of eternal life and not being plucked out of Gods' hand.

 

[redleghunter]

Rebuke? I'm going to have to look that up.

A Christian forgives sins against them as they themselves are forgiven sins. It's what makes us sons (and daughters) of God. It's what grace is.

Not really the subject of the point I was making. See Matthew 18:15-20

 

[redleghunter]

Yes there is eternal security, but it can be lost once you allow the thief in. So accepting safety (accepted Jesus as Savior) is part of the picture of salvation, but to continually be protected (accepting Jesus as our Lord) is just as crucial.

His sheep hear His voice.

John 10: New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus the True Shepherd
10 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.

 

[redleghunter]

But until then you best watch how you live because not every one who says lord Lord will recieve salvation.
He is only coming back for those who love him and prove it through consistent obedience.

I agree it is trust and obey for a servant and child of God.

With that said, how do you quantify consistent obedience?

 

[redleghunter]

I've been on phone for a while so I'll have to get back and scan the thread later. But for now dropping off 1 Peter 1:23

"For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."

For those that do not ascribe to OSAS, how would you explain this verse? If one is born again of that which is of God, which is imperishable, then that is everlasting. God will not reconsider His decision for those he claims as His children. A father loves His child unconditionally, even when they make a mess :^) (fail to attain sinless perfection by their own efforts)

That's just how I feel. I believe if one has enough sensitivity to sin they will come to realize that it is impossible to be sinless before God without full and utter dependance on Christ's propitiation, whom we would spend eons here striving to be and would never attain.

Good questions.

I would add a thought to ponder for all....If we are indeed a new creature at conversion (born again) what exactly makes us no longer born again and no longer a new creation? Not asking you to answer as you did address this in your post.

The other question similar is can someone quantify for me using Scriptures at what point we lose our born again child of God status? Who on earth determines such?

 

[redleghunter]

Nonsense, the text states that they "stand fast through faith". It says nothing about them "not quite fully believing."

Pardon the interruption...which texts are you discussing?

 

[redleghunter]

No, He was remorseful and hated what he had done before he killed himself.I think he killed himself because he could not live with himself after betraying his Lord.

Hebrews 12:
14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

 

[redleghunter]

then we are not really saved are we... at best we have a promise of salvation. of course once we actually are saved we cannot be "unsaved" but until then all we can be is recipients of Christ's grace.

Romans 3-5 might be a good reference to discuss the meaning of Justification. Our standing with God.

Paul speaks a lot about this.

 

[redleghunter]

Well.. if there was ANY verse about saved always vs lose your salvation.. we would not be talk now. No one here has "been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come"

So much if not all most have no idea what it really means or is referring to. But know this.. this GIFT? Comes from a GOD..you and me are no God. And we dont see the heart we see one moment in time and we judge based on that moment. We do use the word at times to SCARE people.. God can not.

This is a gift given by God.. by grace. You took it received it by faith. Angels that fell knew God.. stood with GOD in all his Glory and power.. they tasted of it.. for..who knows how long. There is no hope for them. What could God say? They KNOW what they were giving up.

God never talks like this. There is no fear in God. I have never thought like this other then when I was 1st saved. Came from satan that can only lie. Then God telling me teaching me about "righteousness" that didnt come from anything I do buy my belief in His son.

I doubt anyone can just walk away..lol..never shared with the sweet sweet Holy Spirit or tasted of the power of the world to come... yeah.. NOT that many in this whole earth. But I PRAISE MY GOD in JESUS name I cant read the heart. Its HIS kids.. were talking about being away from Him for ever... not the kind of subject I really want to just CHAT with a Father about....

peace out

You bring up a good point. Jesus taught from a "positive" perspective. Matthew 5 starts with Blessed.

Everyone of these "you can lose your salvation" threads are based on proposed hypothetical vignettes. Like "what if you do or don't do 'x'?" Instead of identifying what a fruitful Holy Spirit filled life actually looks like. The Bible DOES tell us that. It doesn't tell us how one loses the Holy Spirit.

 

[redleghunter]

While the scriptures do refer to some people who were false converts, it is a logical fallacy to assert that all of those were false converts. That would be like saying since those chickens lay brown eggs, all chickens lay brown eggs. The sample may not be representative of the whole, otherwise known as an overgeneralization.

Can you point me to a NT example of someone losing the Holy Spirit. An example of one becoming "unborn again?"

Could you quantify how one loses their salvation?

 

[redleghunter]

Are you suggesting that once they are in his hand all free will is removed from them ?
Just because no one can be “Taken” out of his hand does not mean they cannot choose to remove themselves because they love present pleasure of sin more.

Our will is either in bondage to sin and death or slaves to righteousness.

We are either born again or not.

We are either justified or not.

We are either children of God or not.

Addressing your hypothetical? Show me where we are temporarily plucked from the hand of Christ.

Is it every time we sin? Certain sins? How do you quantify whether or not we are currently in the fold or out and when we can be assured we are back again.

Thanks.

 

[redleghunter]

Jn 3:16 - the word "believes" in this verse is from the Greek word "pisteuōn" which is a present participle better translated as "believing." Thus one has eternal life as long as one continues believing. If a Christian for any reason stops believing, then eternal life is no longer to be had.

What do you mean stop believing. Can you quantify this?

Jn 6:37-40 - same as above as "believes" is "pisteuōn" in v.40. Eternal life and being raised up at the last day is contingent on continuing to believe.
An understanding of the verb tenses is important

What does continuing to believe mean as I don't see that in the text nor tense?

If salvation were only based upon a one-time moment of belief made in the past, only the aorist tense would be used in verses describing how to be saved. Such is not the case

Such was not suggested by the poster. However, at what moment is one born of the Spirit? Justified?
When did Jesus say we pass from death to life? He stated clearly here John 5:24.

Jn 10:27-29 - the promises contained in vs. 27-29 are only promised to those sheep who "listen" and "follow." Conversely those sheep who do not listen and follow do not have the assurance of eternal life and not being plucked out of Gods' hand.

No the text does not say only the sheep who listen and follow. It says sheep. We are either sheep or not. The text is not conditional. It says clearly the sheep hear His voice and follow Him. The Father only gives Christ one type of sheep. Those who listen to His voice and those who will not be plucked.

Why did you add to this very clear passage?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Eternal security is the doctrine that when a person is saved nothing can affect their salvation. They can never lose it for any reason. I believe Eternal Security is true because of the following verses:

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Well, believing in Jesus is more than just having a mental picture of Jesus in your mind that He is your Savior alone. Remember, when Jesus said to Peter after he failed to walk on the water? He said to Peter, "Oh, you have little faith." So a lack of proper action in one's life is a lack of faith.
We are told in Hebrews 3,

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." (Hebrews 3:12-13).

So you can have an evil heart of unbelief and depart from the living God. You can be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

But in Eternal Security, you do not need to worry about hardening yourself to the deceitfulness of sin. You got your golden ticket to Heaven. For in the OSAS belief: No believer can have a heart of unbelief and depart from the living God (even though Hebrews 3 warns us believers about this very thing).

In addition, believing in Jesus also involves believing in everything He taught and commanded us, too. If we are not obeying Jesus, then we really do not believe His words. For example: If you believed in a Jesus that told you to jump off a bridge and you were taking those words seriously, then I would say you are believing in another Jesus. You think Jesus taught that we can disobey Him on some level and yet we can still be okay with Him salvation wise. But that would be the exact opposite of what He had taught.

Jesus says in Matthew 5:22, "...whosoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." In Matthew 5:28-29, Jesus says, "...whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if your right eye causes you to offend, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is better for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell." In Matthew 6:15, Jesus says, "...if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

If you think these words of Jesus are now undone because the New Covenant began with Christ's death, then think again. Even John says in his epistle that if you hate your brother, you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (See 1 John 3:15). In fact, John says in 1 John 3:10, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

James says even the demons believe and tremble and he says that faith without works is dead (James 2:17) (James 2:19). There is the "Law of "Faith" (Romans 3:27), and the "work of Faith" (1 Thessalonians 1:3) (2 Thessalonians 1:11) (Which is not the same thing as the Law of Moses (Luke 2:22) or the Oldness of the Letter (Romans 7:6) or the "works of the Law" (Galatians 3:2)). James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). These works would obviously be a part of our faith in Christ and His teachings. For Paul says if any man speaks contary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

True faith always led to right action in Hebrews 11.
If you were to keep reading in John 3, you also would read this passage.

19 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3:19-21).

Did you catch that? Verse 20 says everyone who does evil hates the light (Christ) and neither comes to the light (Christ) unless their deeds are reproved (i.e. they repent).

John 6:37-6:40

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

The passage says "looks" to the Son. "Looks" is an action; And what exactly are you looking at when you look at the Son? Are you only looking at the Son as described by OSAS or you looking at Jesus as described by the Bible? Jesus is described as saying things like, "If you love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15). Do you truly love Jesus in this way? Jesus says, "you are my friends, if you do what I command you (John 15:14). Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). This is the version of the Son descibed in the Bible that you are to look upon. In fact, we are told to imitate Christ in Scripture (1 Peter 2:21). This is the true way of looking upon Christ. Also, John 6 uses the word "should" in verse 39. That He "should" lose nothing. The word "should" is not a guarantee. For example: If I said to you, "I should be over your house tomorrow, but I have a lot of work to do." You would not take that as a guarantee.

John 10:27-29
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."

You are not reading and believing vese 27. Verse 27 says that the type of sheep that will not be snatched out of the Lord's hand are the type of sheep who FOLLOW Him. For his sheep listens to His voice and He knows them and they FOLLOW Him.

Tell me, how can you read those verses and NOT believe in Eternal Security? Jesus is extremely clear. Out of all that the Father gives to Jesus he will lose NONE of them! In other words, Everyone's salvation is Eternally secure! It's right there in black and white! So, what do you think? Is Eternal Security real? Why or why not?

Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) is wrong because it teaches that you can turn God's grace into a license to sin on some level. Jude 1:4 (NIV) says, "For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord."

God is good and He cannot agree with any person's idea that they can do evil with the thinking they are saved because that would mean God would have to agree with sin (And that is just not possible). For God is good, holy, righteous, and loving. Eternal Security is morally wrong and cannot even found in Scripture (unless one ignores a ton of Scripture).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I agree it is trust and obey for a servant and child of God.

With that said, how do you quantify consistent obedience?

Jesus said pick up your cross, deny yourself, and come follow me. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. 1 Peter 4:1 says he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. 1 Peter 4:2 says we are to live the rest of our time here (on this Earth) not to the lusts of the flesh but to the will of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and the spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. Why is the Father perfect? Because He is holy and does not sin. In 1 Corinthians 10:13 says, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." Yet, you want me to believe otherwise?

 

[redleghunter]

Jesus said pick up your cross, deny yourself, and come follow me. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. 1 Peter 4:1 says he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. 1 Peter 4:2 says we are to live the rest of our time here (on this Earth) not to the lusts of the flesh but to the will of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and the spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. Why is the Father perfect? Because He is holy and does not sin. In 1 Corinthians 10:13 says, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." Yet, you want me to believe otherwise?

Most excellent quotes.

How can one quantity the above?
Sinless perfection?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Most excellent quotes.

How can one quantity the above?
Sinless perfection?

As for your 1st question: Where do you see that you can sin and still be saved in these verses?
As for your second question: I am not allowed to discuss that in this thread because it is not allowed here.

But you can discuss it here in this thread within a select section of the forums (where it is allowed).